Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hello all of Herodom. I have a quandry I'd like to run past the lot of you.

 

I was thinking about Missile Deflection/Reflection and how it interacts with various skill levels, or rather, its lack thereof. Why is this?

 

Would most of us here agree that (even though it is purchased as a power) Missile Deflection is simply (as a mechanic) a version of Block that is usable against Ranged attacks?

 

If this is the case (which is how I see it) then there is a bit of a problem here. Block can benefit from 2pt, 3pt, 5pt, 8pt and 10pt skill levels. However, Missile Deflection can only benefit from 2pt OCV only levels bought specifically for it alone.

 

That just doesn't sit right with me.

 

I think Missile Deflection should also benefit from the various level of CSL's. Hear me out.

 

2pt +OCV only levels...treat as normal. The Levels must be designated as adding to the Deflection OCV or the OCV to Reflect. It can't do both.

 

3pt Missile Deflection CSL: can add to the OCV to Deflect, the OCV to Reflect or to DCV while Deflecting/Reflecting. Optionally, 2 CSL's can be used to add +1DC to a Reflecting shot!

 

5pt Ranged CSL: can affect Missile Deflection as per 3pt MD CSL.

No, I'm not crazy, hear me out. Missile Deflection is used against Ranged attacks. Block is used against Hand to Hand attacks, and it benefits from 5pt Hand to Hand CSL's. The justification for using Ranged CSL's with Missile Deflection is that the character is an expert in judging distance and aim and thus can use his/her experience to aid themself when facing against like assaults. Outta my butt? Sure, but I think it works nicely.

 

8pt and 10pt All Combat CSL's. Of course they should work with Missile Deflection. If I paid that much for a CSL and my GM told me they didn't work with Missile Deflection, I'd be pissed!

 

So what do you guys think? Am I crazy, or am I on to something here....

[Nolgroth]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

You are crazy.

 

But I agree with you 100%.

[Alibear]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

I already allow all combat and Overall levels to do that. I also allow peole to mix and match between block and missile deflect in the same phase.

 

I don't have a problem with what you describe, you crazy bastich, you! Rep.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

I already allow all combat and Overall levels to do that. I also allow peole to mix and match between block and missile deflect in the same phase.

 

Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I think Missile Deflection should be changed to a series of adders you purchase for the Block maneuver. All Missile Deflection really comes down to is the ability to Block a ranged attack.

 

That would allow one to Block both a thrown dagger and a held dagger as part of a series of blocks/deflects. It would also open up HTH reflection.

[Alibear]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

I would have no problem with that. I've asked Steve about this in the Q&A years ago and he said it's a big no no.

 

I don't see why not. Why can we reflect laser blasts but not laser swords, bullets and not fists?

 

What exactly is the difference, special effect?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

I would have no problem with that. I've asked Steve about this in the Q&A years ago and he said it's a big no no.

 

I don't see why not. Why can we reflect laser blasts but not laser swords, bullets and not fists?

 

What exactly is the difference, special effect?

 

From a rules perspective, I agree with Steve. You can't. That's the rules.

 

I believe the rules should be changed to accommodate this because, from a gameplay perspective, and a game world perspective, I see no reason this option should not exist.

[Tonio]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

I'm guessing it's cuz a mechanism already exists for that (Damage Shield, or Trigger (when attack is blocked)). An argument could be made that the mechanisms for both are so wildly different, which is inconsistent with HERO philosophy, though.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

I'd have to agree with Steve on the 'reflecting a HTH attack' thing; reflecting a HTH attack is more along the lines of 'Counterstrike/Riposte' set on a Trigger, or else Damage Shield.

 

However, I'm not quite seeing where it says that Missile Deflection (or Reflection) does not benefit from higher-point-level CSLs. Sure, it says that +1 to your CV when Missile Deflecting can be bought as a 2-point-level CSL which doesn't apply to your Missile REflection, but that's like any other thing -- your +1 CSL to Block doesn't apply to your Triggered Counterstrike. The book is just letting you know that Reflection is one maneuver and Deflection is a different one.

 

Heck, I bought 3-point skill levels for three specific maneuvers -- Block, Missile Deflection, and Missile Reflection. *shrugs*

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

I was going to make a similar point: as far as I knew, the 2 point levels you buy for missile deflection are just normal CSLs. They do not add to the active points of the power, and do not have to pay the cost of any advantages added to missile deflection for increased levels.

If this is the case I see no reason why other, more expensive, CSLs, if properly defined, should not add to the missile deflection rolls or even the rolls to hit with a reflected missile.

Is this in the FAQ somewhere, or in the rule book?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

My take on reflection would be to remove it from missile deflection, rather than add it to block.

 

You can build a 'reflection' power - triggered variable sfx eb - that works well enough and scales to what you pay for.

 

The power to reflect is simply not needed as part fo the missile deflection ability - it is an artefact of a golden age long gone, and has no place in the modern world except as a conversation piece or curio.

 

Mind you 'block' should be something you pay for, not something you get for free, and should be fully interchangeable with missile deflection. Progress can be painful.

[Alibear]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

If the rules don't make any sense to me I want it explained to me why it is so.

 

If someone can explain the difference betwen block and missile deflection I'd be very interested.

 

 

@ Sean - I don't understand what you mean by the Missile reflection being a dinosaur; can you clarify what you mean by that, please?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

If the rules don't make any sense to me I want it explained to me why it is so.

 

If someone can explain the difference betwen block and missile deflection I'd be very interested.

 

 

@ Sean - I don't understand what you mean by the Missile reflection being a dinosaur; can you clarify what you mean by that, please?

 

 

Sure: it has been out evolved. What does it do? Turns an opponent's attack back on them. Cool. Sounds useful. Is.

 

The thing is though, that it is an easter egg, a little free gift that people love to get but that will rot your teeth.

 

It can be built in other ways, indeed, it has to be built in other ways if you want to do something similar with a HtH attack, and when you build it some other way you actually pay for what you get: the ability to immediately launch an attack (in effect) at an opponent who has just attacked you.

 

Sure it is marginally more complex with ranged missile deflection (you need to buy the attack indirect) and covering all the attacks that can be launched at you is a pain (you probably need a VPP) but then it probably does not make much sense that you can reflect light, and electricity and wind and debilitating radiation.

 

We ought to be building the powers we want, and they, in true Hero stylee, should scale, work with the system to get an ability appropriate to the point spend.

 

Missile deflection, and to a greater extent, missile reflection, do not scale: they are fixed cost. Personally I'd overhaul the whole thing so that the ability to block or deflect an attack scaled to the damage the attack did. That would be lush.

 

Then the sfx thing could reduce the cost as a lmitation but otherwise would be completely ignored.

 

The current 'deflect arrows/bullets/shrapnel/lasers/anything' model is really anachronistic, and inappropriate for a decent, Steve-fearing thoroughly modern game.

[Alibear]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

Perhaps but building it in othe ways is far too complicated for most people to work out intuitively. (Far too complicated for me too be arsed with too)

 

Missile Deflection works and is a nice simple mechanic which we all understand. Granted, some things need to change but how the power works, the internal mechanics, are sound, imho.

 

Do you want to change all fixed cost powers; invisibilty, desolidification etc?

[braincraft]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I think Missile Deflection should be changed to a series of adders you purchase for the Block maneuver. All Missile Deflection really comes down to is the ability to Block a ranged attack.

 

That would allow one to Block both a thrown dagger and a held dagger as part of a series of blocks/deflects. It would also open up HTH reflection.

 

I agree. I also think that Reflect has the potential to get really fucked up and I wish there were a way to deal with that.

[braincraft]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

Perhaps but building it in othe ways is far too complicated for most people to work out intuitively. (Far too complicated for me too be arsed with too)

 

Missile Deflection works and is a nice simple mechanic which we all understand. Granted, some things need to change but how the power works, the internal mechanics, are sound, imho.

 

Do you want to change all fixed cost powers; invisibilty, desolidification etc?

 

I think that nonscaling powers are a flaw in an otherwise elegant design.

[Tonio]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

I think that nonscaling powers are a flaw in an otherwise elegant design.

 

While I think I agree, I'm not sure exactly why, or how I'd fix it. Scale the cost of Invisibility to what, your total point cost? Meaning you need to invest in Invisibility constantly as you get XP, even though the power itself is not doing anything differently? I guess a correct measure would be scaling it to the average PER roll in the campaign (not just PCs, not just villains, but basically "everybody involved"), since it's utility is directly proportional to it (in a campaign with all blind people, the power to be invisible is useless... in a campaign where everybody has the eyes of an eagle, the power to be unseen is more valuable)... but then how do you determine the "average PER roll"? Assuming you're really going to average them all out, how much weight do you give normals? supers? And does the cost change whenever you write up new characters?

 

In fact, it is arguable that the problem comes with SCALING powers, rather than non-scaling ones. In a high-powered campaign, everybody's EB will be higher, and so will the defenses, so that part of combat stays the same... it's not "high-powered" at all. But more characters will afford fixed-cost powers, and as long as not everybody picks the same ones, that part of the game IS "high-powered": now you have to deal with the usual energy projector who can now go desolid, but no biggie, cuz you're the usual brick who's now got 75% damage reduction against energy.

 

I'm not sure which way I'd argue, or even if I'd argue either case... but I do know the issue isn't that clear. =/

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

Hmm.

 

Invisibility does scale to an extent: 20 points makes you invisibly to sight, but not actually INVISIBLE. As character points go up, enhanced senses become ever more prevalent meaning that you have to invest more in invisibility to remain unnoticed.

 

If you want a more obvious scaling, you scale invisibility against something that also increases, I suppose: remove the absolute nature and instead treat it as a -8 on your PER roll. That would mean that you couldn't spot an invisible target except on a roll of 3 on your PER roll, assuming an average PER roll. That number then gets modified by - environmental factors: if you are in knee deep water, for instance, there is an 'invisibility penalty' of, for instance +4, so your invisibility is now at -4, not -8. in a perfectly featureless room it might have a -4 bonus: there's nothing that might give away your position, at least not visually.

 

You can buy up your PER modifier, but then opponents can buy up their PER...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

Desolid would work against densities of matter or energy, I suppose, something like that: you would become desolid up to a point, defined in terms of DCs that could effect you, or DEF/BODY limits as to what you could pass through. Wasn't that how it used to be done?

 

So each 5 points of Desolid allows you to pass through 1 BODY or DEF or material and ignore 1 DC of damage.

 

Your own damage would still function, but STR and damage would be reduced by 5 points/1DC per step of desolid you use.

 

So if you have 20 points of desolid, you can pass through up to 4 BODY material and ignore 4d6 from EBs, but your own EB is also down 4d6.

 

'Affects Physical World' would cost +1/4 for each 20 points of desolid it ignored, so if you buy your EB at + 1/4 it can either affect someone who is desolid tot he 20 point elvel at full effect, or, if you can become desolid, affect someone who isn't desolid to that level.

 

I'm making this up, you understand, but you can see how it might be done.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

3pt Missile Deflection CSL: .... Optionally' date=' 2 CSL's can be used to add +1DC to a Reflecting shot![/quote']

This is the only part that I wouldn't allow. It's your opponent's attack, it shouldn't get stronger just because you reflected it, and especially not because of your deflecting skill. However, I would allow reflected attacks to be made more effective by other means, such as buying additional dice of EB or RKA, etc, only to add to reflected attacks, or maybe levels to help make placed shots with the reflected attack. Maybe even a naked advantage you beef up a reflected attack.

[Alibear]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

You can better place the attack with skill levels, which in itself doesn't grant more power, but can affect the target more by aiming for a spot with less defence or a more vulnerable spot.

[Tonio]

Re: Missile Deflection and Skill Levels...

 

Sure, it's the same as using your own CSLs to boost your attacks... your skill with the attack doesn't make it stronger, it just makes it hit better enough to do more damage (the laser hits steadier, so does a bit more damage, the thrown axe is thrown faster, so it does a bit more damage, etc...). No reason you shouldn't be able to do the same thing with Reflected attacks.