FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

And that's when the wheels came off...

[Vestnik]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Quit trying to nerf my creativity, man.

[L. Marcus]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Your creativity was rather foam-y to begin with, there.

[Vestnik]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Indefinable Man is coming to town to take some names and kick some ass.

[L. Marcus]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

*hums Nowhere Man*

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, forgive me if I'm being obtuse (which is possible), but I guess here is my real issue:

 

Logically it seems FTL could be folded into Megascale Movement (with the Disadvantage Not in an Atmosphere). I'm curious why it hasn't been. (As Regeneration was folded into another power.)

 

My belief? Megascale was a new 5e innovation and no one considered the possibility of making FTL a limited version of high end Megascale movement.

 

Let me ask what I consider a better question. Armor, PD, ED, Damage Resistance and Force Field have all been around since the first edition. Why do we have separate powers for these? Armor is just PD and ED with Damage Resistance. Force Field just adds "Costs END" to the PD, ED and Damage Resistance.

 

Transfer is just a linked Drain and Aid. Why is it a separate power?

 

There are lots of areas where powers could be combined, but we keep them separate for a variety of reasons. Because it's always been that way. Because "Force Field" looks much cleaner on the sheet than "PD and ED and Damage Resistance, Costs END". Because players are looking for Armor and will be confused if they can't find it. Nothing prevents any of us from saying "in my game, FTL is eliminated. Use Megascale instead."

[Vestnik]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

 

Let me ask what I consider a better question. Armor, PD, ED, Damage Resistance and Force Field have all been around since the first edition. Why do we have separate powers for these? Armor is just PD and ED with Damage Resistance. Force Field just adds "Costs END" to the PD, ED and Damage Resistance.

 

Yeah, but they're equivalent in function and cost. FTL and MegaMadness aren't.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

My belief? Megascale was a new 5e innovation and no one considered the possibility of making FTL a limited version of high end Megascale movement.

 

Let me ask what I consider a better question. Armor, PD, ED, Damage Resistance and Force Field have all been around since the first edition. Why do we have separate powers for these? Armor is just PD and ED with Damage Resistance. Force Field just adds "Costs END" to the PD, ED and Damage Resistance.

 

Because they're divided by SFX and Game Balance, is my understanding. Mind you, that understanding may be incomplete, but then we get back to the argument in defense of verisimilitude. I prefer my system to be broken up. You're right; we could easily call it all "Defense" and be done, and maybe that's more streamlined and this is all a holdover from 1st Edition, I don't rightly know.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Yeah' date=' but they're equivalent in function and cost. FTL and MegaMadness aren't.[/quote']

 

Armor, Costs END: 2 points per 2 rDEF. Just like Force Field.

 

Force Field, 0 END, Persistent, IPE: 3 points per 1 rDEF. Twice as expensive as Armor for the same effect.

[Tonio]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Armor, Costs END: 2 points per 2 rDEF. Just like Force Field.

 

Force Field, 0 END, Persistent, IPE: 3 points per 1 rDEF. Twice as expensive as Armor for the same effect.

 

Yeah... Armor is usually handwaved as being visible at least to Sight Group and Touch Group in my games, though.

 

Regarding Megascaled Movement vs FTL... FTL's always been cheap, because it's less useful than it sounds. Just like LS: Doesn't Age. Having characters buy FTL as highly Megascaled Flight would have them paying way too much for the ability.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Yeah... Armor is usually handwaved as being visible at least to Sight Group and Touch Group in my games' date=' though.[/quote']

 

Are bonus PD, ED and damage resistance similarly visible? If not, shouldn't they cost more than armor?

[Tonio]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Are bonus PD' date=' ED and damage resistance similarly visible? If not, shouldn't they cost more than armor?[/quote']

 

True, they shouldn't. And often they're not. It's really more of a casual, SFX, "common sense" thing. If you have 40 ED/PD, all resistant (not bought as Armor), it's gonna show. But you can get 2rPD/ED Armor defined as "my clothes are especially tough" or "subdermal skin plating" and have it not show. I guess, strictly speaking, Visible should be bought for Armor (or the extra PD/ED/Damage Resistance)... *shrug* I'm not arguing whether it should or should not be done that way, just describing how it usually works in our game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

True' date=' they shouldn't. And often they're not. It's really more of a casual, SFX, "common sense" thing. If you have 40 ED/PD, all resistant (not bought as Armor), it's gonna show.[/quote']

 

Like Superman's?

[Tonio]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Like Superman's?

 

Not a lot of that type of character in our game. =)

And if there were, it'd probably be bought as PD/ED with Damage Resistance.

 

(Yes, I know it comes out to the same cost... again, like I said before, I'm not arguing whether that's correct or not, just saying how we usually play it.)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Not a lot of that type of character in our game. =)

And if there were, it'd probably be bought as PD/ED with Damage Resistance.

 

(Yes, I know it comes out to the same cost... again, like I said before, I'm not arguing whether that's correct or not, just saying how we usually play it.)

 

Sorry, wait. Does it expressly state in the text that Armor is not 3 senses visible? Because we use it as though it were.

[Vestnik]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

I always thought Armor with IPE just meant if you shot the guy he looked like he took damage.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

I always thought Armor with IPE just meant if you shot the guy he looked like he took damage.

 

What's with the IPE discussions lately? No, with IPE there's just no visual reason why he did NOT take damage. Looking like you took damage is some kind of Illusion or similar effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Sorry' date=' wait. Does it expressly state in the text that Armor is [i']not[/i] 3 senses visible? Because we use it as though it were.

 

In the Armor description? No.

 

The book does expressly state that powers which cost END are visible to three senses. Powers which do not cost END are not automatically visible to three senses. For example, power defense, flash defense, life support and mental defense are not visible powers. Armor does not cost END.

 

Putting these facts together, I would say that the rules expressly state that Armor is not 3 senses visible.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

In the Armor description? No.

 

The book does expressly state that powers which cost END are visible to three senses. Powers which do not cost END are not automatically visible to three senses. For example, power defense, flash defense, life support and mental defense are not visible powers. Armor does not cost END.

 

Putting these facts together, I would say that the rules expressly state that Armor is not 3 senses visible.

 

I would say your right. Frelling rules lawyers... mumble mumble always right mumble...

[caris]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

In the Armor description? No.

 

The book does expressly state that powers which cost END are visible to three senses. Powers which do not cost END are not automatically visible to three senses. For example, power defense, flash defense, life support and mental defense are not visible powers. Armor does not cost END.

 

Putting these facts together, I would say that the rules expressly state that Armor is not 3 senses visible.

 

Yes, but I do not like advertising that fact to players, or I will getting certain players bringing me Armor with the Visible Limitation. Which is not a bad thing, except they will also either have DF: "Rocky Hide", "Leathery Skin", etc. and/or OIF (on the armor) as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Yes' date=' but I do not like advertising that fact to players, or I will getting certain players bringing me Armor with the Visible Limitation. Which is not a bad thing, except they will also either have DF: "Rocky Hide", "Leathery Skin", etc. and/or OIF (on the armor) as well.[/quote']

 

A simple rule of "no double dipping" seems to take care of that. You don't get "Cannot be Stealthy when flying" because your flight is visible to the Hearing sense group, so why should this be different? You might also want to note that, in addition to leathery skin, that Visible armor must also be detectable by two additional sense groups. Would those be, perhaps, Touch (that leathery hide is rough) and Smell (PEEE YU!), perhaps?

 

Oh, you only wanted it detectable by one or two senses? Keep the DF and ditch the limitation, then!

[Tonio]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Yes' date=' but I do not like advertising that fact to players, or I will getting certain players bringing me Armor with the Visible Limitation. Which is not a bad thing, except they will also either have DF: "Rocky Hide", "Leathery Skin", etc. and/or OIF (on the armor) as well.[/quote']

 

That really shouldn't be a problem, though. The cost of Armor is exactly the same as buying PD, ED, and Damage Resistance, separately. Armor is just a "shortcut" to buying those three together. You probably don't require visibility on PD and ED, and also probably not on Damage Resistance, either, so having Armor be nonvisible isn't unbalancing or anything (at least not more so than PD/ED/Damage Resistance). But yeah, it looks like a lotta people generally play with Armor as being visible, heh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

The confusion between visibility of armor and visibility of PD + ED + Damage Resistance is, to me, a selling feature for trashing the Armor power and having an Armor example in the main rulebook under "characteristics as powers".

 

Of course, I have a character whose PD, ED and Damage Resistance is defined as a natural, persistent force field, so I may be biased to seeing all the defense powers as variations on a single ability.

[caris]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

A simple rule of "no double dipping" seems to take care of that. You don't get "Cannot be Stealthy when flying" because your flight is visible to the Hearing sense group, so why should this be different? You might also want to note that, in addition to leathery skin, that Visible armor must also be detectable by two additional sense groups. Would those be, perhaps, Touch (that leathery hide is rough) and Smell (PEEE YU!), perhaps?

 

Oh, you only wanted it detectable by one or two senses? Keep the DF and ditch the limitation, then!

 

Oh, it is covered by that, but it doesn't stop a certain type of player from trying to slip that kind of stuff past their GM.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

To get back to the original ...

 

The difference, in part, is that one can go into a power framework and the other can't. I'm currently contemplating a character in a high-level Champions campaign who COULD conceivably achieve faster-than-light travel -- but who has all their Powers wrapped up into a VPP. Though the FTL (and other stuff, like Armor) logically could fit into the VPP, rules-wise they aren't allowed -- so I have to find other methods. I've already paid for the 60 AP VPP; why should I start paying for the FTL?

 

Let's say I want to go to Jupiter in a reasonable amount of time. The average time for light from the Sun to reach the big planet is roughly 43.28 minutes; sounds good to me. That distance averages approximately 778,570,000 km, and the speed of light is, in game terms, 149,896,229 inches/segment. With a SPD 4 character, this means I have to move just under 600 million hexes per phase -- rounding it to 600 million sounds good to me. So!

 

Lightspeed Flight: Flight 6", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), MegaScale (1" = 100 million km; +2 1/4) (45 Active Points)

 

That'll achieve Jupiter orbit in something under an hour (which is reasonable). Pluto, though -- that'll take FIVE hours. Well, crap -- but wait, I still have 15 actives I can play with. 3 more active points will get me a x10 speed -- and I can reach Pluto in 33 minutes.

 

Just right for those times when I really don't want to be bothered.