FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Didn't I shoot that guy? Bear in mind though' date=' to me, FTL & Regen are part & parcel of the system because I didn't play fourth; just Fifth [i']revised[/i]. And I have no problem with either rule, really. Why do y'all get a crick in yer necks when someone says 'regen' anyway?

it works, it's just really clunky and doesn't mesh well with the mechanics it was shoehorned into.

 

I still see it as evidence of the Anti-Steve, because OUR Steve has kind of a reputation for tricksty, mechanically elegant solutions to weird builds.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Well each of us have our own reasons. Personally' date=' I dislike the fact that it is built out the Healing mechanic, which isn't a problem, except it is allowed to break the limitation on number of uses that is an inherent part of Healing in 5th with no Advantage in the build. (Of course, I just ignore that limitation on Healing and just let players use it as often as they like.)[/quote']

 

Actually, there is an advantage inherent in the build. 1d6 Healing with Standard Effect should deliver 3 character points of BOD. REGEN delivers only 2. If you work the math backwards, avoiding the delay time (or reducing it to 1/turn, depending on your interpretation) is a +1 advantage.

 

Now, if the decreased re-use time advantage had been structured to result in a drop to 1/turn being a +1 advantage, everything would fit together quite nicely...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Actually, there is an advantage inherent in the build. 1d6 Healing with Standard Effect should deliver 3 character points of BOD. REGEN delivers only 2. If you work the math backwards, avoiding the delay time (or reducing it to 1/turn, depending on your interpretation) is a +1 advantage.

 

Now, if the decreased re-use time advantage had been structured to result in a drop to 1/turn being a +1 advantage, everything would fit together quite nicely...

 

This is pretty much how it works out in comparison between the first 2 examples from this old post from another thread:

 

Ah, I knew I forgot something.

 

Self Only.

 

Here are the updated examples. Note that the first 2 function exactly the same. The per wound variant is over twice the cost but is arguably more than twice as useful too.

 

12 Book Recomended Regeneration Method: Healing 2 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

 

14 It's like Regeneration but Different!: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

 

27 It's like Regeneration but Different! (per wound): Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Whenever character takes BODY damage.; +3/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (55 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)

[Notes: If the character suffers 3 Body damage from 1 attack and then 2 body from another on Phase 3 then 1 Body damage on Phase 6 they will not heal the remaining 1 Body from phase 3 until Phase 3 on the following Turn. The triggered healing will only affect the damage taken by each specific attack.] - END=0

[caris]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Actually, there is an advantage inherent in the build. 1d6 Healing with Standard Effect should deliver 3 character points of BOD. REGEN delivers only 2. If you work the math backwards, avoiding the delay time (or reducing it to 1/turn, depending on your interpretation) is a +1 advantage.

 

Now, if the decreased re-use time advantage had been structured to result in a drop to 1/turn being a +1 advantage, everything would fit together quite nicely...

 

Except no advantage works the way you are describing. If an advantage had been involved the active cost would still have gone up, and you would still get 3 character points per D6 of standard effect.

 

I am stopping here before speculation about reasoning gets me into trouble.

[TaxiMan]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Back to the OP:

 

Megascale movement suffers from relativity and can never actually achieve light speed, much less FTL. It suffers from 1/sqrt(1- v^2/c^2) effects to mass, distance and time.

 

Duh.

[SteveZilla]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

So this power wouldn't immediately blot out the entire visible universe?

 

Darkness 1" vs Sight & Radio Groups + Zero END(+.5) + Personal Immunity(+.25) + Megascale(1"=1x10^24Km; +6.25)(120 Active Points)

[Lucius]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

So this power wouldn't immediately blot out the entire visible universe?

 

Darkness 1" vs Sight & Radio Groups + Zero END(+.5) + Personal Immunity(+.25) + Megascale(1"=1x10^24Km; +6.25)(120 Active Points)

 

Not immediately, no. The effect propagates at light speed, so if another character has FTL or (perhaps) Megascale Teleport they can get “ahead” of it.

 

Okay, more seriously it depends on who is running the game, and whether they enforce physics over game rules.

 

Didn't I shoot that guy? Bear in mind though' date=' to me, FTL & Regen are part & parcel of the system because I didn't play fourth; just Fifth [i']revised[/i]. And I have no problem with either rule, really. Why do y'all get a crick in yer necks when someone says 'regen' anyway?

 

For one thing, because Regeneration is not “part and parcel of the system” under the currest dispensation. It was part of previous incarnations of the rules, and was cut from this version – although, true to its name, it keeps regenerating in the form of house rules, etc.

 

Lemme explain.

 

Long ago, in a simpler time, there was a little game called Champions. There was a power called Regeneration, which cost 10 pts to allow you to recover one BOD point each turn. You could buy more Regeneration to recover more BOD and regenerate faster, or put a limitation on it to slow it down.

 

If you wanted to help someone else heal, you could buy it Usable On Others (This was before the Usable By Others and Usable As Attack distinction existed, too.) If you wanted to help someone else recover STUN, you bought RECovery Usable On Others. People who wanted healing spells and the like were able to build them, and life was good.

 

Then came Champions II, and Champions III. The last came with a ton of new powers, including Healing. Healing allowed you to roll dice as if for Energy Blast, count the STUN and BOD, but instead of doing it as damage, you restored that many STUN and BODy to someone. There was already a way in the game to do this, but Healing had a certain asthetic appeal in that its mechanics reflected those used to do damage. Still, I looked at it and mostly said “Eh, there’s already ways to accomplish this.”

 

Since I didn’t look close, I don’t even remember if that version of Healing was nerfed like modern one was.

 

Time passes, the dark age of Fusion comes and goes, and eventually, Fifth Revised EDition arrives. Without Regeneration. And with a version of Healing that is, compared to what I expected and desired, severely limited. And with an ugly kludge incorporated into the Healing rules that was called “regeneration.”

 

As I said to Monolith at the time, when he said you can build a Healing power and “You can call it Regeneration if you want,” I said “You can call it FRED if you want, but can you sell it in a game store for $50.00?”

 

Not only is it a complicated kludge to replace what was a simple power, it is a kludge that breaks the rules; it “handwaves” its way around the Healing nerf. With a prohibition against going around the nerf to heal anyone but yourself.

 

Since you came in on FRED Jr. you may not know just how nerfed it was at first. In the first FRED, there was no advantage to move Healing up to being usable more than once a day. And in fact, it didn’t even specify “try again tomorrow.” As far as the Rules As Written were concerned, Healing was a once in a lifetime event.

 

Do you begin to see where we get “a crick in yer neck?” Even with the revised edition, we are stuck with a…a kludge. And a nerfed Healing, although there’s an expensive Advantage to get around the nerf now. An originally simple power has been replaced with something far more complicated.

 

Fortunately, you can simulate Regeneration with a homebrewed Advantage to move how often you can take a RECovery on BOD up the time chart – as I recall, a +1/2 per step up worked out to 10 pts to Regenerate once per Turn, just like old Regeneration.

 

When I get around to running a game again, I think that’s what I’m going to do. Go back to Regeneration (maybe justified as advantaged REC) and REC Usable on Others if you want to help someone with STUN.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that we are so far off topic we need Megascale Move to get back.

[SteveZilla]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

For creatures that Regenerate (Trolls are the ones that come to my mind first), if something prevents them from regenerating some damage, are they also unable to heal from that damage? By heal I mean the recovers his REC in BODY per month, same as any character has. I can understand there being scarring, and not regrowing lost limbs, but the basic BODY stat is what I am concerned with in this question.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

I lack the context to properly understand your position, Lucius, but I at least have a clearer grasp of where you're coming from and why. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me.

 

Thia Halmades asks the Palindromedary, if I've been playing the flocking bustard game for two sock-in-mustard years, how is it I'm still a frocking blundered newbie?!?

[caris]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Thia Halmades asks the Palindromedary' date=' if I've been playing the flocking bustard game for two sock-in-mustard years, how is it I'm still a frocking blundered newbie?!?[/quote']

 

The Necromancer answers: You know very well that in certain cultures everyone that came to it before you will always consider you a "newbie." I'm still my mother's "baby" even though I raised her rotting corpse out of the ground over a century ago .

[Hyper-Man]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

For creatures that Regenerate (Trolls are the ones that come to my mind first)' date=' if something prevents them from regenerating some damage, are they [b']also[/b] unable to heal from that damage? By heal I mean the recovers his REC in BODY per month, same as any character has. I can understand there being scarring, and not regrowing lost limbs, but the basic BODY stat is what I am concerned with in this question.

 

A 'Troll Regeneration' ability would just have a Limitation: Not vs. Damage caused by X (acid, fire, etc..). Other than that, it could still be modeled by one of the 3 examples I posted earlier.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Actually, there is an advantage inherent in the build. 1d6 Healing with Standard Effect should deliver 3 character points of BOD. REGEN delivers only 2. If you work the math backwards, avoiding the delay time (or reducing it to 1/turn, depending on your interpretation) is a +1 advantage.

 

Now, if the decreased re-use time advantage had been structured to result in a drop to 1/turn being a +1 advantage, everything would fit together quite nicely...

 

Except no advantage works the way you are describing. If an advantage had been involved the active cost would still have gone up, and you would still get 3 character points per D6 of standard effect.

 

I am stopping here before speculation about reasoning gets me into trouble.

 

Regeneration: 2/3d6 Healing, Standard Effect, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Immediate Re-Use (+1) [2/3 * 10 * 3 = 20 AP] Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real cost 7 points

 

The "official" writeup leaves out both the effective +1 advantage and the reduction from 1d6 to 2/3 of 1d6.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

The Necromancer answers: You know very well that in certain cultures everyone that came to it before you will always consider you a "newbie." I'm still my mother's "baby" even though I raised her rotting corpse out of the ground over a century ago .

 

The Paladin thanks the Necromancer, and despite his inability to survive in this setting, due to his entire practice having been outlawed nearly five centuries ago, decides that he likes him anyway and doesn't run him through. He's just too darn handy to have around.

[SteveZilla]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

The Necromancer answers: You know very well that in certain cultures everyone that came to it before you will always consider you a "newbie." I'm still my mother's "baby" even though I raised her rotting corpse out of the ground over a century ago .

 

I can just see it now. The undead mother nagging her live-at-lair necromancer (read: Emo) son about doing the chores.

 

Mom: *nagnagnagnagnag* "And another thing! I gave life to you!"

Son: And I gave Unlife to you. I think that makes us even on that score.

 

[caris]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Regeneration: 2/3d6 Healing' date=' Standard Effect, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Immediate Re-Use (+1) [2/3 * 10 * 3 = 20 AP'] Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real cost 7 points

 

The "official" writeup leaves out both the effective +1 advantage and the reduction from 1d6 to 2/3 of 1d6.

 

 

Where else in Hero System other than your interpretation of the Regeneration build does 2/3D6 exist?

[caris]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

The Paladin thanks the Necromancer' date=' and despite his inability to survive in this setting, due to his entire practice having been outlawed nearly five centuries ago, decides that he likes him anyway and doesn't run him through. He's just too darn handy to have around.[/quote']

 

Why Sir Paladin, I am but a humble farm lad not yet even seven summers of age. What could I have possibly done to warrant a death sentence?

[SteveZilla]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

A 'Troll Regeneration' ability would just have a Limitation: Not vs. Damage caused by X (acid' date=' fire, etc..). Other than that, it could still be modeled by one of the 3 examples I posted earlier.[/quote']

 

All three methods use the Healing power to build the Regenerative ability, and placing a limitation on that saying "Not vs. Damage caused by X (acid, fire, etc..)" is perfectly fine. However, that limitation doesn not automaticlaly carry over to the creature's Recovery (the point I was trying to make ).

 

So even if the Troll can't regenerate the fire damage it took, it will eventually heal that damage per the rules on recovering Body (REC per month if resting, etc. etc.).

[caris]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

All three methods use the Healing power to build the Regenerative ability, and placing a limitation on that saying "Not vs. Damage caused by X (acid, fire, etc..)" is perfectly fine. However, that limitation doesn not automaticlaly carry over to the creature's Recovery (the point I was trying to make ).

 

So even if the Troll can't regenerate the fire damage it took, it will eventually heal that damage per the rules on recovering Body (REC per month if resting, etc. etc.).

 

Presumably, a smart character builder would do one of the following:

 

A - Only put the Advantage and corresponding Limitation concerning Damage caused by X on only part of the character's REC.

 

B - Build the Advantage moving the REC of Body up the time chart as a Naked Advantage, and than apply the Limitation only against the Advantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

All three methods use the Healing power to build the Regenerative ability, and placing a limitation on that saying "Not vs. Damage caused by X (acid, fire, etc..)" is perfectly fine. However, that limitation doesn not automaticlaly carry over to the creature's Recovery (the point I was trying to make ).

 

So even if the Troll can't regenerate the fire damage it took, it will eventually heal that damage per the rules on recovering Body (REC per month if resting, etc. etc.).

 

Well, if you want the Trolls in your world to not get their normal REC in Body/month vs. damage caused by X just note that in a Physical Disad.

 

REC is a characteristic that all characters get some amount of for free. Changes to how it works for a certain creature, race etc.. should be noted as a Disadvantage.

 

Healing (including the Regeneration variant) is a power that no character has by default so any customization of the ability should stay within the power construct itself via Advantages and Limitations.

 

...

 

Getting back to the Uber-Megascale vs. FTL discussion...

 

I don't see a problem allowing both in a campaign. The limitations of both are different enough that one will end up being better than the other some of the time. They also could be used to show different tech flavor in a Sci-fi game like Stargate SG-1. One method for Gate Travel, the other for Starship FTL.

[SteveZilla]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Getting back to the Uber-Megascale vs. FTL discussion...

 

Agreed.

 

I don't see a problem allowing both in a campaign. The limitations of both are different enough that one will end up being better than the other some of the time. They also could be used to show different tech flavor in a Sci-fi game like Stargate SG-1. One method for Gate Travel' date=' the other for Starship FTL.[/quote']

 

I feel sorta the same. Megascaled Flight is more defined in it's mechanics, including DCV and turn mode. So if as a GM you're only concerned with how long it takes to get from point A to point B, and there isn't any FTL combat, then use FTL (like Star Wars, I believe). If there is/can be FTL combat, then use Megascaled Flight (like Star Trek).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Where else in Hero System other than your interpretation of the Regeneration build does 2/3D6 exist?

 

1/2d6 also has a standard effect of 2 points, and 1/2d6 of RKA and HKA both cost 2/3 of the cost of 1d6.

 

Note that I'm not saying this was a conscious decision to make Regen a 2/3 of 1d6 power, nor to provide a +1 advantage for avoiding (or reducing to 1/turn) the time betwen Healing functioning. If there was, this +1 advantage would be presented in the build (even if as an advabtage only available for this construct). I am saying that:

 

- 2 character points per d6 is not consistent with the usual Statndard Effect rules. Caris, where else in Hero System other than your interpretation of the Regeneration build does Standard Effect get 2 points per d6 rather than 3 points per d6? [Even if we accept this is rounded for even numbers of BOD, why wouldn't 2d6 get 3 BOD, rather than 2?] The simple fact is that Regen is inconsistent in some fashion regardless of how one reads it.

 

- If we accept that the discount from 3 CP to 2 CP offsets the ability to heal every turn, then the advantage works out to +1.

 

It would not have been difficult to build the "reduced re-use time" advantage to result in "use once per turn" being a +1 advantage, thus making Regen consistent with other Healing powers with reduced re-use time. In the interests of consistentcy, I feel this step should have been taken (and should be taken in the next system update). I'm not sure why you would be so vehemently opposed to such an approach.

 

Alternatively, Regen should be priced as:

 

Regeneration: 2/3d6 Healing, Standard Effect, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Re-Use 1/turn (+1 1/2) [2/3 * 10 * 3.5 = 23 AP] Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real cost 8 points

 

This leaves decreased re-use at its present cost, so is easily applied using the rules as presently written.

 

Or, under your model where standard effect is 2 for 1d6, 1d6 Healing, Standard Effect, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Re-Use 1/turn (+1 1/2) [10 * 3.5 = 35 AP] Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real cost 13 points

 

I could live with just under 8.5 per BOD of Regen. That doesn't seem wholly unreasonable. But over 12.7 per BOD seems quite steep. Considering that the former is consistent with every other use of Standard Effect, and the latter is not, I also consider the former to be superior from a "systems" perspective.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

...

 

I could live with just under 8.5 per BOD of Regen. That doesn't seem wholly unreasonable. But over 12.7 per BOD seems quite steep. Considering that the former is consistent with every other use of Standard Effect, and the latter is not, I also consider the former to be superior from a "systems" perspective.

 

 

Hugh,

 

I'm not sure where you are getting 8.5 and 12.7. The 3 variants I posted early have a per BODY cost of 6, 7 and 13 respectively.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

Hugh,

 

I'm not sure where you are getting 8.5 and 12.7. The 3 variants I posted early have a per BODY cost of 6, 7 and 13 respectively.

 

I'm only referencing the possibilities I posted above those comments, as set out below.

 

Alternatively, Regen should be priced as:

 

Regeneration: 2/3d6 Healing, Standard Effect, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Re-Use 1/turn (+1 1/2) [2/3 * 10 * 3.5 = 23 AP] Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real cost 8 points

 

This actually works out to 8.4848 or just shy 8.5, points per BOD.

 

Or' date=' under your model where standard effect is 2 for 1d6, 1d6 Healing, Standard Effect, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Re-Use 1/turn (+1 1/2) [10 * 3.5 = 35 AP'] Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real cost 13 points

 

Well, 12.7272, or just over 12.7.

[Lucius]

Re: generation

 

Sometimes I think all the mischief started when the Healing power was invented, and we should just go back to Regeneration (and maybe RECovery usable on others.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Shaving a palindromedary with Occam's Razor. (Don't tell Occam.)

[Comic]

Re: FTL vs. Lots of Megascale Movement

 

I don't think anyone regenerates so fast that it propels them at anything like the speed of light.

 

I mean, even kelp only grows a couple of feet a day.

 

And Hulk's leaps don't gain any appreciable distance while he's recovering from wounds.