Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bibliography

 

Are you tlaking about the end in the movies or in the series? I didn't liked the movies; they just go to the same point, but less effectively. For me, it stops with the serie.

 

Ha... I have a lot more to say, but I don't know how to cover it up like you did with this spoiler button (wich, by the way, I find is a great invension for human kind. How many time did I get punches ruined out??? HOW MANY??? HAARRRGGGG!!!!!)

 

Herr... Well, I'll be happy to discuss it when I learn how not to scrap people's pleasure. Have fun!

 

They kind of ended the same way; according to the canon, the film is the official ending (there are two movies; one is largely a recap, and the other is the complete ending). It's still freaking weird. Anyway, to answer your question, a spoiler tag is done like any other:

 

In brackets [_spoiler_] (without the underscores) and then [_/spoiler_] again without the underscores, so the final result looks like so:

 

 

Your text here.

 

 

Just remember to take out the underscores, just as you would (or as you see) if you hit CTRL+B, which is [brackets around a capital B].

[Doc]

Re: Bibliography

 

They kind of ended the same way; according to the canon' date=' the film is the [i']official [/i]ending (there are two movies; one is largely a recap, and the other is the complete ending). It's still freaking weird. Anyway, to answer your question, a spoiler tag is done like any other:

 

In brackets [_spoiler_] (without the underscores) and then [_/spoiler_] again without the underscores, so the final result looks like so:

 

 

Your text here.

 

 

Just remember to take out the underscores, just as you would (or as you see) if you hit CTRL+B, which is [brackets around a capital B].

 

 

Thanks for the tip.

 

So, as I was saying, even though the canon takes the movie as the official ending, it's exactly the same content; it's just less intense and good... In Japan, the serie provoked quite a scandale when it ended. Anno didn't respect the scenario he officialy proposed the producers. The only reason he had no problems with this is that the serie caught more and more watchers with each episode being diffused. Moreover, the last two episodes were late and diffused later than the original schedule.

 

Worst, people didn't like the end,and (as it is usual in Japan), the fans complained a lot to the producer to obtain another ending, wich resulted in the movies. The movies got the public angry again, but nothing came out again...

 

What I mean the movies have the same content as the serie is

that Anno intended more than just make a divertising serie with it. The hole thing is about suicide and well being in life. He wrote this after a depression of four years. Shinji in introverted, lacks confidance and hates himself. He doesn't receive "nurishment" from is relations to others, except for Kaoru, wich he is forced to kill. Rei is another exemple of this theme, as she doesn't feel the need to live and dies a lot of times... Finally, all the caracters are lonely and sad, a typic description of our human condition in this modern society. It's what Ritsuko talked about with her "Hedgehog's dilemna".

 

The end of the serie already told all Anno wanted to say, without any need to go further. Even life is a b..., that you're parents didn't love you, etc, etc, etc, well, you can still find something good in your existence and enjoy it, if only you stop hating yourself. That's the only limit you have in life, and you placed it yourself upon you.

 

There's a lot of those things I just wrote that could have been told without the spoiler thing, because I don't tell much about the scenario, but I felt that it would still have spoiled this reflexion you can have with the shock and surprise that this weird ending can provoke... The movies don't add anything in this, wich is, I think, the real plot of the thing.

 

 

So yes, it is weird, but it has a prupose in being so;). Well, anyway, that's what I think. Also, I had a lot of troubles translating this reflexion I had a couple of years ago in french, so I hope it's quite clear anyway...

 

Have fun!

[Sketchpad]

Re: Bibliography

 

I would recommend (and some have been mentioned):

Robotech

Gundam Seed/Gundam Seed Destiny

Gundam G

Gundam Wing

Patlabor

Gunbuster

Eureka 7

Macross

Macross Plus

Genesis Climber Mospedia

Escaflowne

Five Star Stories

Voltron

Transformers (G1 Mainly)

Mighty Orbots

 

A good start would be Gears Online.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Ah...finally found time to post (I hope).

 

There's a lot that could conceivably go into such a book.

 

I think the first chapter should be a sort of introduction to the Mecha "sub-genre" and how mecha can fit into each major genre (Sci-fi, Fantasy, Post Apacolyptic, Cyberpunk, Science-Fantasy, Wierd-West etc) including a filmography of mecha anime/manga/games and the genre into which they apply.

 

Chapter two should detail how to build mecha using the Hero System rules, as is. This would most likely be the second largest chapter, discussing the current vehicles rules as they would apply to mecha. This chapter would also discuss the various types of mecha, from realistic to superheroic, anthropomorphic to beat-mecha, transforming to combining and everything in between and the various ways these stereotypes can be represented via the rules.

 

The next chapter should be a veritable treasure trove of pre-designed equipment ready to drop into a mecha/vehicle including weapons, defenses, modes of movement, ECM/ECCM, Sensors, Control systems, power systems, Remote control systems/drones, Psi-boosters, Maneuvering systems...the list should be fairly exhaustive.

 

The next chapter should discuss Mecha pilots and the stereotypes that apply in the mecha sub-genre. It should discuss the nature of Realistic, Heroic and Superheroic (Sentai) characters and how they interact with their mechanical co-stars. Also it should detail the skills necessary to facilitate the creation, upkeep and operation of these mechanical monstrosities.

 

The next chapter should be a GM's section, discussing how to design and run mecha based campaigns and adventures and include advice on how to insert various mecha standby's as Ro-beasts, Enigmatic god-like creatures, Intergalactic communities, Magi-tech and any other number of oddities that routinely appear in mecha anime.

 

The final chapter should include an optional Mecha construction system based on the old Robot Warriors game, completely updated to match with Hero-5, but maintaining the feel of 50 foot tall mechanical knights. It should include full scaling rules and a list of weapons and equipment based on the Construction Point system in Robot Warriors. It should also include rules on how to design powers/equipment using 5ed point system then converting to the Construction Point system for mecha.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Now for some specifics:

 

I think the current vehicles rules in HERO are fine as they are, but I agree they do make the vehicles feel a little too much like characters. There is an easy fix for this: Simply change the names of the majority of vehicle characteristics.

 

Strength should be changed to Power (POW)

Dexterity should be changed to Handling (HND)

Body should be changed to Structural Integrity (STI)

Speed should be changed to Response (RSP)

Defense could be changed to Hull or it could stay the same (I don't have a problem with it)

The DCV modifier should be changed to Size Modifier (SIZ) (more on this later)

Knockback Modifier should be changed to Stability (STA)

A new characteristic known as Maneuverability (MAN) should be added (more on this later)

 

Of course, the name changes don't really change how they work, just what we call them and how they look on the vehicle data sheet.

 

The DCV modifier should be changed to Size modifier. This is because there is a lot of consideration that comes from how big/massive a vehicle is and there are several things beyond DCV that this stat could modify. It should add to the R-mod to spot the vehicle via Perception rolls of almost all kinds. Most especially, Sight, Radar, Mass/Gravity and IR signatures. Larger vehicles are easier to spot from a long way off.

Also, massive/heavy vehicles are hard to turn, so the Size modifier should add to the Turn Mode of vehicles. For example a large motorcycle with a Size modifier of -1 and a combat movement of 25" (x4) has a normal turn mode of 5", but should add 1 to this for a Turn mode of 6". A mecha with a Size modifier of -6 and a Flight speed of 35" (X4) would have a turn mode of 13". This can be adjusted though with a vehicles Maneuverability characteristic (see below)

 

The vehicles Stability characteristic should be more than mere Knockback resistance. It should function as that, certainly, but there are many instances where stability is important for a vehicle, especially those vehicles where balance is essential such as motorcycles and humaniod mecha. Stability should function as the threshold in which a pilot or driver must fail their control roll by in unsafe conditions to crash (drop the bike in the case of a motorcycle or fall over in the case of a mecha)

 

To be continued.....(they're kicking me outta work)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

I agree with Sketchpad. Gears Online is an excellent resource. And I'm not just saying that because I helped create the Five Star Stories section.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Ah...finally found time to post (I hope).

 

There's a lot that could conceivably go into such a book.

 

I think the first chapter should be a sort of introduction to the Mecha "sub-genre" and how mecha can fit into each major genre (Sci-fi, Fantasy, Post Apacolyptic, Cyberpunk, Science-Fantasy, Wierd-West etc) including a filmography of mecha anime/manga/games and the genre into which they apply.

 

Chapter two should detail how to build mecha using the Hero System rules, as is. This would most likely be the second largest chapter, discussing the current vehicles rules as they would apply to mecha. This chapter would also discuss the various types of mecha, from realistic to superheroic, anthropomorphic to beat-mecha, transforming to combining and everything in between and the various ways these stereotypes can be represented via the rules.

 

The next chapter should be a veritable treasure trove of pre-designed equipment ready to drop into a mecha/vehicle including weapons, defenses, modes of movement, ECM/ECCM, Sensors, Control systems, power systems, Remote control systems/drones, Psi-boosters, Maneuvering systems...the list should be fairly exhaustive.

 

The next chapter should discuss Mecha pilots and the stereotypes that apply in the mecha sub-genre. It should discuss the nature of Realistic, Heroic and Superheroic (Sentai) characters and how they interact with their mechanical co-stars. Also it should detail the skills necessary to facilitate the creation, upkeep and operation of these mechanical monstrosities.

 

The next chapter should be a GM's section, discussing how to design and run mecha based campaigns and adventures and include advice on how to insert various mecha standby's as Ro-beasts, Enigmatic god-like creatures, Intergalactic communities, Magi-tech and any other number of oddities that routinely appear in mecha anime.

 

The final chapter should include an optional Mecha construction system based on the old Robot Warriors game, completely updated to match with Hero-5, but maintaining the feel of 50 foot tall mechanical knights. It should include full scaling rules and a list of weapons and equipment based on the Construction Point system in Robot Warriors. It should also include rules on how to design powers/equipment using 5ed point system then converting to the Construction Point system for mecha.

So far with this, I can agree (though as mentioned before I'd definitely also include a series of PAH-style mini-settings).

 

With the subsequent post, not so much. It goes too far in changing the HERO System into... well, something else. Some of the specific points a certainly valid, but not the whole package -- most specifically, changing the names of the Characteristics is unnecessary, and represents an overall change to the Vehicle rules that a Mech book shouldn't try to do.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

So far with this, I can agree (though as mentioned before I'd definitely also include a series of PAH-style mini-settings).

 

With the subsequent post, not so much. It goes too far in changing the HERO System into... well, something else. Some of the specific points a certainly valid, but not the whole package -- most specifically, changing the names of the Characteristics is unnecessary, and represents an overall change to the Vehicle rules that a Mech book shouldn't try to do.

 

Well, the changing of the names is in response to the general feeling (from, as it seems, a vast majority of Hero players, both experienced and amateur) that the Hero vehicles rules make vehicles seem too much like characters. I think a lot of that stems from the fact that the basic characteristics of vehicles (and bases etc) are the same as those used for Characters. With the exception of DCV mod, they all are pretty much unchanged in how they're used, just what they're called. And my suggestion was actually to change them for the vehicles rules as a whole and not applied simply to a Mecha sourcebook. (although the changes could be simply introduced in said sourcebook)

 

Personally, I like the Hero vehicles rules as they are now...and I don't have a problem with the names of the characteristics, but I am fully aware that I'm in a very small minority on that point on these message boards. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever of accomadating the majority on this particular issue.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Well' date=' the changing of the names is in response to the general feeling (from, as it seems, a vast majority of Hero players, both experienced and amateur) that the Hero vehicles rules make vehicles seem too much like characters. I think a lot of that stems from the fact that the basic characteristics of vehicles (and bases etc) are the same as those used for Characters. With the exception of DCV mod, they all are pretty much unchanged in how they're used, just what they're called. And my suggestion was actually to change them for the vehicles rules [i']as a whole[/i] and not applied simply to a Mecha sourcebook. (although the changes could be simply introduced in said sourcebook)

 

Personally, I like the Hero vehicles rules as they are now...and I don't have a problem with the names of the characteristics, but I am fully aware that I'm in a very small minority on that point on these message boards. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever of accomadating the majority on this particular issue.

 

'S not 'xactly what I mean when I complain about Vehicles working like Characters. I dinnae care if you want to call it STR or Power or Bertha... It does the same thing, and I'm OK with that. Where the normal system struggles is with matters of Movement and Combat. I think the system took a couple of backwards steps when it comes to oversimplifying vehicles in 5th Edition. TUV addresses some of what I'd hoped to see (for example, giving pretty good game rules write ups for various modes of propulsion), but still was very rules lite and write up heavy, IMO, for what it was billed as, which disappointed me somewhat. My big problem revolves around Combat and Scale, and in more metagame terms...Realism. You have to dump a bucketful of house rules onto the vehicle combat system to make them act like real vehicles. Plenty of examples sited above. Right now the default consideration for vehicles still "feels" like they are intended as tonka toys for superheroes. A big portion of this is the Exponential Damage assumption being debated in a recently threadomancied thread. If a NCM human can have a 20 Body, then a Nimitz class Aircraft carrier "feels" like it should have maybe a bit more than 40 Body. You could put it all down to the old "It takes 83 Body to blow up the Earth" problem... some of the systems we have in place to allow gameable scaling of superpowers results in Illogical results when looked at from a real world perspective, and the exponential scale is one of them, because it's not a true exponential scale (attacks don't interact with body in an exponential way).

 

*breathes*

 

Wow..that was a very stream of consciousness rant right there... cold meds must be kickin' in....

 

Uh, yeah... so...

Thesis: We need to make the environment tougher or the humans squishier. This will solve a lot of problems. The End.

[Spence]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

So what are some good things to check out? I'm a Robot Warriors (and to some extent Battletech) player from way back' date=' and a pretty decent system guy, but my anime knowledge is a bit lacking.[/quote']

 

I've always liked the grittier mecha myself. I am pretty sure if you watch old Robotech or Macross you will recognize many of the Mechs that later appeared in Battletech under different names.

 

I would recommend (and some have been mentioned):

Robotech

Gundam Seed/Gundam Seed Destiny

Gundam G

Gundam Wing

Patlabor

Gunbuster

Eureka 7

Macross

Macross Plus

Genesis Climber Mospedia

Escaflowne

Five Star Stories

Voltron

Transformers (G1 Mainly)

Mighty Orbots

 

A good start would be Gears Online.

 

All good anime. I always thought Gundam leaned away from the "realistic" and toward the fant/mech like Neon Genisis Evangelion and Eureka 7.

 

Doc says it pretty well.

 

I really like your dichotomy; it's simple and effective.

 

For low mecha material, I strongly suggest you to watch the first two Patlabor movies: Patlabor the Movie and Patlabor 2 the Movie. The series are good, too, Mobile Police Patlabor and Mobile Police Patlabor TV series and P series, but less serious, more comedic. The movies are a must.

 

For high mech genre, some Go Nagai series might be necessary, even though it may be painfull to admit and watch... Go Nagai is the autor who built the genre's conventions, even though his stuff is pretty crapie. Mazinger Z and Great Mazinger, Grendizer might be necessary. I think there is a new one called Mazin Saga, but I do not know what it is like.

 

Like TH said, Neon Genesis Evangelion is great stuff for high mech style, even though I don't agree with him about the end... For games, Mech Commander is set in the same universe than Mech Warrior, but it is a strategy game where you manage a crew of pilots and a squadron of mecha with all the equipment and stuff. Pretty good for strategy lovers, like me...

 

I'd place Gundanm Wings more in high mecha style. I didn't find it really gritty on a tactical scale, not very realistic (well, I didn't see all of them and I don't remember wich one I did, but, anyway...).

 

What I'd want to see in a book like this? Pieces, engines, frames, armor, weapons, etc. I want to be able to design a whole mech by choosing parts of it in a catalog. Some designed models could also be available, of course. A frame gives a fixed amount of space, and each part as a space requirement. There could be rules and guidelines too to cover how to design new parts. As I am a new Hero player, it sounds great to me to be able to build something without having to go through all the technicalities of the system, than come here and ask a lot of questions about things I don't understand, having to sort through all the different answers (hey, I very appreciate you, guys, for your efforts to help me, but, well, it takes a lot of time to be helped!). I feel also that designing could become a part of the game as fun as any other (roleplay, design, combat, roleplay, etc).

 

Well, I took me a lot of time this write this, again. Now I gotta go. I wish you all a god damn lot of roleplay during chrismas time! Have fun !

 

But for street level gritty I am surprised no one has mentioned Full Metal Panic or Ghost in the Shell.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

'S not 'xactly what I mean when I complain about Vehicles working like Characters. I dinnae care if you want to call it STR or Power or Bertha... It does the same thing, and I'm OK with that. Where the normal system struggles is with matters of Movement and Combat. I think the system took a couple of backwards steps when it comes to oversimplifying vehicles in 5th Edition. TUV addresses some of what I'd hoped to see (for example, giving pretty good game rules write ups for various modes of propulsion), but still was very rules lite and write up heavy, IMO, for what it was billed as, which disappointed me somewhat. My big problem revolves around Combat and Scale, and in more metagame terms...Realism. You have to dump a bucketful of house rules onto the vehicle combat system to make them act like real vehicles. Plenty of examples sited above. Right now the default consideration for vehicles still "feels" like they are intended as tonka toys for superheroes. A big portion of this is the Exponential Damage assumption being debated in a recently threadomancied thread. If a NCM human can have a 20 Body, then a Nimitz class Aircraft carrier "feels" like it should have maybe a bit more than 40 Body. You could put it all down to the old "It takes 83 Body to blow up the Earth" problem... some of the systems we have in place to allow gameable scaling of superpowers results in Illogical results when looked at from a real world perspective, and the exponential scale is one of them, because it's not a true exponential scale (attacks don't interact with body in an exponential way).

 

*breathes*

 

Wow..that was a very stream of consciousness rant right there... cold meds must be kickin' in....

 

Uh, yeah... so...

Thesis: We need to make the environment tougher or the humans squishier. This will solve a lot of problems. The End.

 

I'm fully aware of your particular problems with the systems vehicle rules, especially the question of scale. And I agree with them to a point. However I also realise that a lot of the perception that people have with the system stem from their experience with Superheroic levels of gameplay as opposed to dealing with much lower levels.

 

I personally do not have a problem with the Earth having a Body of 83....first of all, in order to reduce the earth to an asteroid field filled with rubble, one needs to do 166 Body damage to the Earth (reducing it to -83 Body to completely destroy it) and second of all, I believe the Earths basic defense characteristic is too low...I would rate the Earths DEF at about 30. That would require an attack capable of doing nearly 200 Body in a single shot to do what the Death Star is capable of. Thats a lot of energy being thrown about.

 

And thats the crux of the system's "percieved" flaw. Its the Defense. Thats what it all boils down to. Since Body damage is exponential, so is the Defense, yet players simply pile it on like layers of clothing. Then the attacks have to get bigger which means that damage scores get higher, and yet the Body of objects remains about the same as always, which is where the problem began. Even Hero Games (or rather DOJ) themselves have gotten caught up in this "Arms Race" by giving the official writeup of the Abrams an 8D6K main cannon and a Foward Defense of 30 Hardened, when 6D6K and 20-24 Def would've been good enough...but because players complained that too many Bricks could destroy the worlds toughest tank with no problems whatsoever, they were goaded into the Arms Race (and of course, in comic books, Bricks have absolutely no problem dismantling tanks with their bare hands...so why do so many players have a problem with this scenario?)

 

Scale is right..people need to scale back their weapons...their armor...their perception of the systems damage scale itself, and things will settle in their proper place. And the characters are very squishy.....as long as their longjohns aren't sporting 20pd/ed armor, which seems to be the standard in most Superherioc campaigns....even for characters who aren't Bricks.

 

Let me tell you a story of my early days with Hero.

 

I joined a group who were heavily into Champions many years ago and I was eager to get into what seemed to me to be a very detailed and crunchy system. I made a character who was an Energy Projector with a Multi-Power...Energy Blast, Flight, Force Field, Teleport and HKA(energy based) were the characters main powers. The Force Field was pretty gnarly (15pd/15ed hardened) when she could maintain it, but she just coudn't afford to to it all the time.

My character was in battle with some supposedly "cannon-fodder" Ninja-type guys with Wolverine-style claws and she was hit with a 4D6 Killing Attack. The GM rolled something on the order of 22 Body damage (ouch). Subtract your Defenses the GM told me.

 

"I think my character is dead...or very nearly so" I said.

 

"What? No way, that was only 22 Body" The Gm replied.

 

"Yeah, she took 16 Body" I groaned.

 

"16 Body!" The GM was shocked. "Subtract your Defenses!"

 

"I did" I replied.

 

"You only have 6 resistant Defense?" The Gm was perplexed.

 

"Yeah, just 6pd/ed of Armor".

 

"Don't you have a Force Field?" The Gm asked.

 

"Yeah, but she didn't have it up because she didn't have enough points in her multipower for the Energy Blast, the Teleport and the Force Field simultaneously"

 

The Gm was now covering his face with his hands "And without your FF, you only have 6 Defense? How is it that you have less than 20 Defense? Thats like the minimum you need!"

 

"20!?! Are you [expletive deleted]ing me? My character isn't a Brick, she's a speedy Energy Projector, with some hand to hand skills"

 

Gm laughing "Bricks got way more than 20 Defense!"

 

Now it was my turn to cover my face with my hands.

 

He just didn't get it. I understood the system. I figured out about where everything fell and built my character accordingly. He was just playing the numbers and assumed everyone would buy the top tier of what they could afford. He was wrong and my character died for it.

 

Its all about attack vs defense vs body balance. Its not really that difficult, its just really easy to get caught up in big numbers.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

*sigh*

Yeah, I'm beginning to get ranty. Better try and put together another nice reasoned explanation of my POV for the Exponential Damage thread.

 

heh... now I know why Nyrath started his site. Having to rewrite the same things over and over every few years sucks

 

It's all good, carry on.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Okay... by "scale" I thought you meant not the amount of damage and defense that's used, but the size at which Vehicle vs Vehicle combat should be carried out -- somewhat like the "megahexes" of Robot Warriors, or the enlarged hex size of the Mass Combat System in Fantasy Hero. This is something that I do think would be appropriate for Mech Hero, since (even more than other Vehicle types) mecha often fight each other with no other combatants.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

*sigh*

Yeah, I'm beginning to get ranty. Better try and put together another nice reasoned explanation of my POV for the Exponential Damage thread.

 

heh... now I know why Nyrath started his site. Having to rewrite the same things over and over every few years sucks

 

It's all good, carry on.

 

 

I really do know where you are coming from. I've been there. I've simply found a compromise that I'm comfortable with (balance the numbers, ignore published writeups) and your comfortable place is likely to be different from mine. Rest assured that it exists...the key is to ignore pretty much anyone what wants to tell you different.

 

Back to our regularly schedualed thread....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Thesis: We need to make the environment tougher or the humans squishier. This will solve a lot of problems. The End.

 

Note: Rant attached. Do not click rant, it's there for my benefit and refers to a thread ANB mentioned, regarding exponential scaling and a two post flame exchange. You were warned. To the mods: No, I didn't type out any curse words. Yes, I struggled mightily with this.

 

 

SEE?! SEE?! IT'S NOT SO F---ING HARD, IS IT?! It's a GORRAM THESIS STATEMENT! PLAIN F---ING ENGLISH!! SONUVABISH I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TOTALLY BATS--T CRAZY WHEN I ASKED ABOUT THAT!! AIIIIIGGGGHHHH!!!

 

 

*pant... pant... pant*

 

K. Done now. Where was I? Oh yes. Now on to the actual post. ANB & I had discussed at length that the Turn Mode is actually very good, as it lends 'weight' to a vehicle, although how you get an Aircraft Carrier to turn in under an hour would be beyond me; I would like to know what that would look like as a Turn Mode. Anyway.

 

I agree with both Bob & ANB here; I don't need my vehicle rated in "Power" or "STI" because that does go against the core system. The stats are fine, really, but the vehicles themselves need to reflect their ability to withstand real-world forces, not, as my brother so simply put it, be Tonka Trucks for Super Heroes. I've never advocated upending the whole thing; just refining and building on it.

 

And something like a Mecha simulator -- and let's be clear, we're talking about writing a full simulation guide, not just an expansion -- would need those rules. I think Robot Warriors is a very poorly written and edited book with a lot of great ideas, and I know rather than smack me down Steve just ignores me when I post rants on revising it, but to be fair, I found the Damage/Size incremental system (if I'm recalling it right) to be great! I thought that it's attempt at keeping with the exponential growth scale of HERO was broken, though, as it lent to either small or BIG robots but I was having trouble getting "in between," and that was bothering me. However, the core principles on which it's based as a HERO rendition of BattleTech are sound.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Okay... by "scale" I thought you meant not the amount of damage and defense that's used' date=' but the size at which Vehicle vs Vehicle combat should be carried out -- somewhat like the "megahexes" of [i']Robot Warriors[/i], or the enlarged hex size of the Mass Combat System in Fantasy Hero. This is something that I do think would be appropriate for Mech Hero, since (even more than other Vehicle types) mecha often fight each other with no other combatants.

 

Ideally, I see the best solution integrating the two.

 

That is to say.... using the FH Mass Combat differing hex scales to provide us with a series of breakpoints to also determine how attacks interact with targets.

Not just in terms or ranges and hit modifiers, but also in damage.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

I really do know where you are coming from. I've been there. I've simply found a compromise that I'm comfortable with (balance the numbers, ignore published writeups) and your comfortable place is likely to be different from mine. Rest assured that it exists...the key is to ignore pretty much anyone what wants to tell you different.

 

Back to our regularly schedualed thread....

 

oh, yah... I've done it several times in the past, starting with making Autoduel Champions work mechanically more like the Champions/Espionage!/Justice Inc. rules, then coming up with a whole vehicle combat system integrating everything from jetbikes and powersuits up to capital ships for our "Space Game", which was running a good 5-7 years before Star Hero 1st edition came out. I just don't find myself with quite the same amount of time or gaming OCD that I had back in high school and early college.

 

Your approach has some merit, but we have a rock solid benchmark I work up from. The 8-10 Body "normal human". Weapon damages have to flow from that benchmark or things begin to look silly.

Ever seen the first Pirate Mythbusters special? Remember the cannon blowing the holy heck out of that section of bulkhead? According to TUV, an 8 pound cannon does the same damage as a .38 revolver(1d6+1K), enough to MAYBE kill an 8 Body Normal with a head or vitals hit.

 

"Wait, what?"

 

The more I consider it, the more I wonder if an actual rework of Body damage might make the most sense in keeping with an exponential system. Cumulative Body damage is what breaks the scale of the combat system more than individual attacks, because the Body damage doesn't accumulate in a fashion consistent with exponential damage.

Using the suite of optional combat rules, Body already imposes a series of thresholds based on the amount of damage penetrating... any Body damage inflicts both shock (Wounding rules) and bleeding (Bleeding), over half the Body stat in a single attack Impairs, over the Body stat in a single attack Disables, and 2x the Body stat Kills/Destroys.

In theory, these thresholds could be used to de-couple Body from cumulative damage, much like the way old school Car Wars used "breaches" on buildings, so each penetrating hit on a target could, say, inflict whatever damage effects the penetrating Body damage of the hit specifies, while only reducing the Body STAT by 1.

 

It'd need a bit of tweaking, and resembles a lot of other games out there, but might do a better job of simulating the way exponential damage should interact with a target.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

oh' date=' yah... I've done it several times in the past, starting with making Autoduel Champions work mechanically more like the Champions/Espionage!/Justice Inc. rules, then coming up with a whole vehicle combat system integrating everything from jetbikes and powersuits up to capital ships for our "Space Game", which was running a good 5-7 years before Star Hero 1st edition came out. I just don't find myself with quite the same amount of time or gaming OCD that I had back in high school and early college.[/quote']

 

Thats very similar to my situation. I spent 2 years examining every game system I could get my hands on, looking for the One True Game, and finally it boiled down to HERO or GURPS. It took another 3 years of bouncing back and forth between the two systems before I determined that HERO was my game.

 

You want an example of a game with Linear damage/defense/structural integrity progression? Check out GURPS Vehicles. Its a great resource, however the damage gets into the thousands (damage dice max out at 6D6 and they apply a multiplier at specific thresholds...6DX1000 is not uncommon) and the "Hp" of some vehicles are as high as 1,000,000. Thus I found the "exponential" progression in HERO to be far, far more playable. And thats the rub. A linear progression like in GURPS may be more accurate, but an exponential system like HERO is more playable...and thats the most important thing, now isn't it. (it is in my mind and I would assume, the mind of the vast majority of gamers)

 

Your approach has some merit, but we have a rock solid benchmark I work up from. The 8-10 Body "normal human". Weapon damages have to flow from that benchmark or things begin to look silly.

Ever seen the first Pirate Mythbusters special? Remember the cannon blowing the holy heck out of that section of bulkhead? According to TUV, an 8 pound cannon does the same damage as a .38 revolver(1d6+1K), enough to MAYBE kill an 8 Body Normal with a head or vitals hit.

 

"Wait, what?"

 

And thats why I say you gotta ignore the published writeups. Some are fine..and some are perfect...but others.. Balance is the key. Find it and everything works fairly well (not perfect, but close enough for gaming purposes), break the balance and of course, everything comes tumbling down....if you are attempting to maintain some semblence of reality in your scenarios.

 

The more I consider it, the more I wonder if an actual rework of Body damage might make the most sense in keeping with an exponential system. Cumulative Body damage is what breaks the scale of the combat system more than individual attacks, because the Body damage doesn't accumulate in a fashion consistent with exponential damage.

Using the suite of optional combat rules, Body already imposes a series of thresholds based on the amount of damage penetrating... any Body damage inflicts both shock (Wounding rules) and bleeding (Bleeding), over half the Body stat in a single attack Impairs, over the Body stat in a single attack Disables, and 2x the Body stat Kills/Destroys.

In theory, these thresholds could be used to de-couple Body from cumulative damage, much like the way old school Car Wars used "breaches" on buildings, so each penetrating hit on a target could, say, inflict whatever damage effects the penetrating Body damage of the hit specifies, while only reducing the Body STAT by 1.

 

It'd need a bit of tweaking, and resembles a lot of other games out there, but might do a better job of simulating the way exponential damage should interact with a target.

 

I think it would work quite well. Body as a threshold rather than Hit Points in the classic sense. Thus, the addition of just a few points of Body are fairly significant, requiring much more energy to effectively destroy it in a single shot.

 

I've always kind of viewed Body in this way. However I like the fact that when Body is reduced to negative its original score, the object is totally destroyed. For living creatures, it represents the shock and blood-loss associated with a large number of minor wounds. For objects, it represents the fact that the object was damaged little by little until it could no longer hold its shape or maintain its functionality.

 

Also for a sense of "scale" one could simply use Damage Reduction based on an objects size in relation to one another.

 

Size/Dam Red.

Normal/none

Large/25%

Huge/50%

Colossal/75%

 

Thus a weapon/power that is "normal" scale attacking a Colossal object has its damage reduced by 3/4. However a Huge scale weapon attacking a Colossal scale object has its damage reduced by 25%.

 

Just an idea I'm throwing out there. I oftentimes use Damage Reduction when building mecha...the larger the mecha, the more damage reduction I apply to it.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Also for a sense of "scale" one could simply use Damage Reduction based on an objects size in relation to one another.

 

Size/Dam Red.

Normal/none

Large/25%

Huge/50%

Colossal/75%

 

Thus a weapon/power that is "normal" scale attacking a Colossal object has its damage reduced by 3/4. However a Huge scale weapon attacking a Colossal scale object has its damage reduced by 25%.

 

This is a good start. I've done the same thing with vehicles myself, so that a volley of arrows doesn't sink a ship. More than simple scale should go into effect here though. A cannonball should put a serious hurting on a human, but much less on a ship. A cannon shell should also put a serious hurting on a human as well as a ship. The problem I'm seeing here, though, is that an official book needs to have a system to the madness, rather than a list of what-does-what. Otherwise, it loses its universal applicability, and isn't really Hero anymore.

[input.jack]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

[2 cents] I pretty much agree with everything Thia has said, and a lot of what Amadan has said, too. Consider me to have made a long, well thought out, and witty post proving the solidity of their ideas.

 

Which I dont really need to do, as they have done a fine job of presenting their ideas themselves.

 

Yes, in my (not so humble) opinion, vehicles need a way to "scale up" their movement and abilities, like Megahexes in Robot Warriors. [/2 cents]

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

[2 cents] I pretty much agree with everything Thia has said, and a lot of what Amadan has said, too. Consider me to have made a long, well thought out, and witty post proving the solidity of their ideas.

 

Which I dont really need to do, as they have done a fine job of presenting their ideas themselves.

 

Yes, in my (not so humble) opinion, vehicles need a way to "scale up" their movement and abilities, like Megahexes in Robot Warriors. [/2 cents]

 

Wow, that was incredibly insightful, IJ! Thanks for sharing those thoughts with us, I don't know that I would've considered [something so insightful I can't even repeat it] had you not posted! Bravo!

 

 

 

 

Thia, from the corner of his mouth, "Do you know what he's talkin' 'bout?" ANB, while applauding, leaning slightly sideways, eyes still on the stage, "Naw, d'jew?"

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

How about coming up with some equipment that would fit in a Mecha campaign.

 

For example:

 

Maneuvering Verniers: +3 Movement Skill Levels with Flight (6) OIF(-1/2) Cost Endurance (-1/2) cost 3pts. End=1/phase

 

Maneuvering Verniers are small rockets/thrusters placed around the mecha's body or on hardpoints at the end of wings or equipment pods. They enhance a mecha's maneuverability while flying, allowing the mecha to perform tight turns and amazing aerobatic maneuvers. As movement skill levels, the bonus from the Verniers can add to the pilots Combat Piloting rolls for maneuvering, can reduce Turn Mode and can enhance the DCV of the vehicle when using evasive maneuvers. According to The Ultimate Vehicle (and the 5th edition) Movement Skill Levels shouldn't be allowed to add to a vehicles Accelleration or Decelleration, however in the case of Maneuvering Verniers (and a few other equipment that give a vehicle Movement Skill Levels) it should probably be allowed.

Example: Mobile Suite Gundam. Pretty much all Mobile Suits have them to varying degrees.

 

Magnetic Coating: +3 Dex(9) +1 Spd (10) +1 Movement Skill Level (2)

Does not work in Magnetic Field (-1/4) cost: 17pts

 

The Magnetic Coating is applied to a mecha's joints and all the moving parts that can generate friction when they grind against one another. The addition of the Mag Coat removes any friction from such contact allowing the mecha to move quite gracefully. Pilots notice that mecha with Mag Coats perform noticably better and react faster to their inputs than those mecha without such modification. The one issue discovered with Magnetic Coating is that they can be interfered with by intense magnetic fields, such as those generated by cosmic storms, plasma or Ion weaponry and powerful force fields, in which case, the bonuses from the Magnetic coating dissapears. For this reason, even Mag Coat equipped mecha still maintain mundane lubrication system in order to avoid catastrophic damage to the joints of a mecha caught in such a situation.

 

VTOL Fight System: Flight 25" (x4) (55) Sideways Maneuverability(+1/2) Full Reverse(+1/4) 96pts

+2 Movement Skill Levels w/Flight (4)

OIF(-1/2) [Rocket/Jet pods] Fuel Charges (-0) Side Effects (-1/2) [Jet Blast]

 

VTOL (Verticle Take-Off and Landing) Flight Systems are those Flight systems that allow a vehicle to take off with no runway and hover and maneuver at very low flight speeds. Most winged vehicles require a runway to take-off and have a minimum flight speed they must maintain in order to stay airborne. Those vehicles with VTOL systems have no stall speed and do not require a runway to take-off. Additionally, the VTOL systems mounted by many flight-capable mecha are incredibly agile, allowing the mecha to fly backwards at full flight speed and to maneuver sideways at full DCV (allowing fantastic dodging maneuvers) and to turn on a dime (Movement Skill Levels)

The VTOL Flight System is often mounted in a special backpack that is attatched to a hardpoint on the Mecha's back. Some mecha also have additional thrusters in the feet/legs to provide additional thrust, or to allow mid-air hovering without using fuel from the main thrusters.

Since the VTOL system is built with a thrust-based system (Jet or Plasma based) they have the classic Jet Wash pheonomenon common to all such vehicles...

 

Help me add some more!

[input.jack]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Wow' date=' that was incredibly insightful, IJ! Thanks for sharing those thoughts with us, I don't know that I would've considered [something so insightful I can't even repeat it'] had you not posted! Bravo!

 

Glad to have helped out.

[JmOz]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Regarding mech building I would like to see a discusion on how much gear a mech can hold, with the idea of setting influencing it. Idealy each campeign setting would give some (different) guidelines for it, and all of the equipment in the equipment in the chapter including the "cost".

 

Issues of energy vs balistic, Range vs melee, defensive gear, active and real points, etc... should be touched on in how it effects the in game cost

 

For instance in a low military: a vehicle can cary 1/2 it's str worth of gear indefinatly or suffer from long term damage for caring over half for long periods of time

 

Melee weapons can only be physical (No energy Melee weapons), they are equal to Active Points x50 lbs + Real Points x25lbs

 

Energy Weapons are 75 lbs x Active points

 

Balistic Weapons are 50 lbs x real points

 

In a high scale super hero game the limits would be something different, etc...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

How about Hard Points? Based on frame, mechanics, design of a mech, leg selection completely written out, you know. The basics.