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Chris Goodwin

Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Sorry, I ment nothing negativeby my last post, though I fear it was read as somekind of slam against Chris, I wish him nothing but the best

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Edit: I am in fact writing up a design document/outline' date=' as we speak. The finished product will, if nothing else, and to the extent I can, be posted on the web when I'm finished with it.[/quote']

 

 

I'm eager to see it!

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Sorry' date=' I ment nothing negativeby my last post, though I fear it was read as somekind of slam against Chris, I wish him nothing but the best[/quote']

 

Thanks, JmOz! Everyone, JmOz and I have talked through PMs and there's no lingering issues or anything as far as I can see.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Thanks' date=' JmOz! Everyone, JmOz and I have talked through PMs and there's no lingering issues or anything as far as I can see.[/quote']

 

I wasn't even aware that there was any sort of lingering conflict. Shows how much attention I'm paying to this discussion.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

I wasn't even aware that there was any sort of lingering conflict. Shows how much attention I'm paying to this discussion.

 

There never really was, it was more of a did not want someone to read things wrong. ok, what really happened is my wife read it and told me I sounded bitter, I thought she was crazy BUT, better safe than sorry

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Well' date=' I did start the thread :D With a "hypothetical and unofficial" idea for writing a mecha book. So I do kinda feel like it's my project. But I'm only claiming it to the extent of what I'm writing and working on, and I'm sure as heck not going to say no to contributions.[/quote']

 

I have been kinda following the thread too. I am looking forward to seeing your take on things.

 

A minor suggestion, most people are focusing on their fav version of Mechs. But a Mech Hero book should (IMO only) cover a wider view. Like Thia Halmades mentioned, a more defined approach to mech construction would greatly benefit things. But instead of one single one, have all six of the major mech types, as I define them anyway.

 

I define each mech as human sized, regular and giant. Human sized is self explanitory. Regular sized are mechs in the ranges portrayed by BattleTech, Patlabor, Robotech and Gundam. Giant are along the line of those in Big O, Neon Genesis Evengelion and Argentosoma.

 

Then each is either realistic or fantastic. Realistic is having the mechs controlled by normal technology. Fantastic is controlling by magic or telepathy of other form of fantastic method.

 

For example:

 

Bubblegum Crisis is Human sized fantastic.

Battletech is regular realistic,

Robotech is regular fantastic,

Neon Genesis Evengelion is giant fantastic,

Patlabor is regular realistic.

Ghost in the Shell uses regular realistic mecha.

 

A Mecha Hero book needs to have a solid inplace structure for each version. Like Thia Halmades mentioned a "regular realistic", needs specific and predefined sizes and masses. Hardpoints and such. But these will be different in a "regular fantastic" after all, just how much tonnage do you need for a "magically controlled" mech or a mech controlled by telepathy and Protoculture?

 

In the end I believe a solid book showing a method and rules for each of the types plus how to modify them to suit a campaign would be worth its weight in gold. To me anyway.

 

Out of curiosity. What "type" of mechs are you going for?

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

And I think that makes total sense. And, I just love seeing my name in bold. Have some rep.

 

Specifically, and vanity aside, I think that breaking down by size and 'realism level,' whether we're talking about 'SuperHeroic' robots or more 'heroic' robots, would be a great launching off point for the book.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Personally, I don't think it should be broken down by size, merely by power level/realism/romanticism. Bubblegum Crisis has mecha from human size to vehicle size (the D.D. from BGC5 and Crab-mecha from BGC7) Appleseed has mecha from vehicle size (landmates) to gargantuan sized (the Spider-tanks). Gall Force has powered armor and full blown mecha. Gundam has the typical 15-20 meter tall mecha and 40+meter tall monstrocities. It is quite normal for mecha of various sized to co-exist in the same setting, so quantifying it by the size of the mecha seems unnecessarily limiting.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Now we're back to needing rules for scale and the effect thereof. We have rules for size! Yes! But not for SCALE. Difference, and my big, fluffy complaint with all of this.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

If by scale you're talking about the sorts of issues you and ANB were talking about on the other thread, the simplest way to handle that kind of scaling is to alter the numbers of points. For instance, 15 meter tall mecha (say, 200 tons) vs. megaton monstrosities a kilometer across.... make sure the smaller mecha are built on 300 points and the bigger ones 1500 or more. (The specific issue ANB was bringing up was a case of 12 DEF against an attack with 24 DC or more.)

 

I will be adapting the Ground Scale and Size Class rules from Robot Warriors.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Personally' date=' I don't think it should be broken down by size, merely by power level/realism/romanticism. Bubblegum Crisis has mecha from human size to vehicle size (the D.D. from BGC5 and Crab-mecha from BGC7) Appleseed has mecha from vehicle size (landmates) to gargantuan sized (the Spider-tanks). Gall Force has powered armor and full blown mecha. Gundam has the typical 15-20 meter tall mecha and 40+meter tall monstrocities. It is quite normal for mecha of various sized to co-exist in the same setting, so quantifying it by the size of the mecha seems unnecessarily limiting.[/quote']

 

Which is exactly why I break them down as I do. And yes many scales co-exist within any given show/story. But that doesn't change the need of a well thought out build guide for each. Building Priss's HardSuit is different from the Crab-Mecha and will have different considerations. The same with the rest.

 

And one point we disagree on ;)

 

I think size (or Scale) is one of the essential components.

 

Now we're back to needing rules for scale and the effect thereof. We have rules for size! Yes! But not for SCALE. Difference' date=' and my big, fluffy complaint with all of this.[/quote']

 

I have to agree.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

If by scale you're talking about the sorts of issues you and ANB were talking about on the other thread, the simplest way to handle that kind of scaling is to alter the numbers of points. For instance, 15 meter tall mecha (say, 200 tons) vs. megaton monstrosities a kilometer across.... make sure the smaller mecha are built on 300 points and the bigger ones 1500 or more. (The specific issue ANB was bringing up was a case of 12 DEF against an attack with 24 DC or more.)

 

I will be adapting the Ground Scale and Size Class rules from Robot Warriors.

 

I need to drag out my copy and re-read them. But this is exactly why I think a Mecha Guidebook is needed. To point out you can do this by scaling the points. ;)

 

Bye the way. Did you mention the type/setting of mecha you are basing you rules on? hint hint :D

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Now we're back to needing rules for scale and the effect thereof. We have rules for size! Yes! But not for SCALE. Difference' date=' and my big, fluffy complaint with all of this.[/quote']

 

Are you referring to something like the scale breakdown they have in Mekton Zeta:

 

Human (x1 scale)

Striker (X2 scale)

Mecha (X10 scale)

Huge (X100 scale)

Gargantuan (X1000 scale)

 

Note: in Mekton Zeta, the scale breaks down 1/10 (human) 1/5 (striker) x1 (mekton) x10 (mobile armor) x100 (starship) Excessive scale (Plot device)

 

Robot Warriors already accounts for this with the size classes. Each Robot Warriors size class roughly corresponds to about 3 "levels" of growth or size on the Vehicluar Size chart. The Mekton version is a bit more math-easy, but the Robot Warriors version is more elegant, allowing for a larger variety of shapes and sizes.

 

I think the Mekton version would handle the "scale" issues to your satisfaction, as a X1 scale mecha weapon does a ridiculous amount of damage to a 1/10 human scale object, but will barely scratch a X10 scale object.

 

Robot Warriors also handles the scaling issue, but less strictly. The bigger the mecha, the bigger weapons you can mount and the more armor you can layer on. You can create a small but powerful mecha in Robot Warriors capable of taking on the big guys, but its proportionately expensive to do so. And ultimately, there is only so much stuff you can fit in there.

 

I think breaking things down by Robot Warrior Size Classes is the way to go, and as for the issue of Scale, any mecha fighting mecha outside of its Size Class will have bonuses and/or penalties depending on the difference in scale.

 

 

Larger mecha have their DCV reduced, however their base DEF is increased by the difference between their respective Size Class. For example:

 

The Gundam "Alex" is a Size Class 3 Mecha. It is fighting a mobile Armor that comes in at Size Class 5. The mobile Armor normally has a DCV of 6, but has a DCV penalty of -2 for purposes of fighting the Alex. However, when the Alex attacks the Mobile Armor, its DEF is increased by +2 vs all of the Alex's attacks because of the difference in mass and the thickness of its armor.

 

The Megascale advantage could be used as a guideline for an advantage that smaller mecha could mount large weapons that are considered of a higher scale. +1/4 for +1 Scale, +1/2 for +2 Scale, +3/4 for +3 scale and so on.

 

In the same vein, larger mecha are normally built to fight mecha on the same scale as themselves, so fighting smaller mecha/vehicles can be difficult. The larger mecha is -1 to its OCV per difference in Size Class when fighting vehicles with a smaller size class. However when they hit, it hurts...larger scale weapons get a bonus of +1 Body damage per difference in the size class up to the maximum rollable on their damage dice.

 

Yes its rough, but I'm sure something along those lines could go a long way toward giving things the appropriate sense of scale necessary for the genre.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

I think I need to add a qualifier to my posts.

 

I do think that Hero's system can already do many of the things needed to build mecha.

 

I just think, like others that there could be a few extras to make it smoother.

 

Also I believe that a well laid out guide book is essential for new players. For a new to hero gamer, an attempt on their own to build a Gundam for a game based in that universe is very very difficult. I know of experienced Herophiles that still balk at building things using Hero Vehicle rules because they just don't feel right. And Mecha are vehicles.

 

So don't get me wrong. I think Hero is great and can do the job. I just think it could do it a little better :D

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Which is exactly why I break them down as I do. And yes many scales co-exist within any given show/story. But that doesn't change the need of a well thought out build guide for each. Building Priss's HardSuit is different from the Crab-Mecha and will have different considerations. The same with the rest.

 

And one point we disagree on ;)

 

I think size (or Scale) is one of the essential components.

 

Our disagreement stems from your wording...you said "setting" should be defined by size and powerlevel. I disagreed with that particular aspect of your breakdown.

 

I do agree that mecha construction needs to be broken down by size...as the Robot Warrior size classes do quite elegantly....but as for the settings...there are so many variations that hard/fast rules or guidelines simply can't apply to all of them, or even to most of them. Such considerations need to be taken on a case by case basis, and need to be decided on by each individual GM. That is something Hero Games can't do for them. (any attempt to do so will fail utterly)

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Bye the way. Did you mention the type/setting of mecha you are basing you rules on? hint hint :D

 

Chris is attempting to "translate" (if you will) the old Hero System game Robot Warriors updating it to the 5th edition. It is a generic Mecha game which is designed to simulate a wide variety of settings and power levels from Anime Cyberpunk to Super Robots like Dangaio and Gunbuster and everything in between.

 

In other words, no specific setting, just general rules that can apply to multiple settings.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Our disagreement stems from your wording...you said "setting" should be defined by size and powerlevel. I disagreed with that particular aspect of your breakdown.

 

 

Opps....I miss-posted. I went back and edited the post to say what I meant :o

 

I was meaning to say Mecha types, not mecha settings. You were right to point out that many different mecha types can be in a single storyline.

 

Thanks for pointing it out :D

 

And do I make more sense now?

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Chris is attempting to "translate" (if you will) the old Hero System game Robot Warriors updating it to the 5th edition. It is a generic Mecha game which is designed to simulate a wide variety of settings and power levels from Anime Cyberpunk to Super Robots like Dangaio and Gunbuster and everything in between.

 

In other words, no specific setting, just general rules that can apply to multiple settings.

 

Cool, Thanks.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

I do agree that mecha construction needs to be broken down by size...as the Robot Warrior size classes do quite elegantly....but as for the settings...there are so many variations that hard/fast rules or guidelines simply can't apply to all of them, or even to most of them. Such considerations need to be taken on a case by case basis, and need to be decided on by each individual GM. That is something Hero Games can't do for them. (any attempt to do so will fail utterly)

 

 

I don't really agree with this, the "would fail utterly" part. While you are correct not everything can be covered. A good book with examples and guidelines for the main types plus something to assist in GMing games where different scale directly interact would be invaluable and very doable (maybe not financially doable, but physically doable).

 

I would lean toward an "Ultimate" style book. Nothing in the Ultimate Martial Artist or the Ultimate Mystic couldn't be done with just the core rules. But the books were fantastic in expanding a persons view of how to do things in Hero. A Mecha Book that was made in that manner would be great. And wouldn't fail utterly any more than a book on designing and running martial arts games did.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

I don't really agree with this' date=' the [i']"would fail utterly"[/i] part. While you are correct not everything can be covered. A good book with examples and guidelines for the main types plus something to assist in GMing games where different scale directly interact would be invaluable and very doable (maybe not financially doable, but physically doable).

 

I would lean toward an "Ultimate" style book. Nothing in the Ultimate Martial Artist or the Ultimate Mystic couldn't be done with just the core rules. But the books were fantastic in expanding a persons view of how to do things in Hero. A Mecha Book that was made in that manner would be great. And wouldn't fail utterly any more than a book on designing and running martial arts games did.

 

I agree that any new attempt at a Robot Warriors book should be done in the style of the "Ultimate" series of books. It should be as generic as possible, giving guidelines and examples on how to create a plethora of mecha from realistic all the way to Godlike.

What I don't agree with is such a book focusing on a specific style or type of mecha. Personally as a big fan of Mecha of all types (I have been since I was a small boy, long before Macross/Robotech hit the airwaves) I would want to use these rules for all manner of mecha and not feel limited to Gundam or Macross style games. I have a particular love for Supermecha, and those are something that can not be accurately portrayed when the rules are designed to simulate more realistic styles. Even Mekton has difficulty properly simulating Supermecha, and it is supposed to be designed to cover the entire genre of Giant Robots as closely as possible (but its obvious that the original creators favored Gundam/Macross style shows over the others and its design aesthetics reflect that)

Additionally, many Realistic-heroic type Mecha shows have very specific rules that apply to them which give them a very different feel from shows that are around the same power level. Evangelion has AT Fields which are nigh impenetrable. Macross has Pin-point Barrier Shields. Gundam has Psychommu and Psychically controlled Remote Bits. Bubblegum Crisis has Mass-absorbtion/fusion nanotechnology. The are classic bits and all very different from one another. Attempting to base the hard rules on one or two specific styles will ultimately end up alienating those styles that aren't considered in the original equation.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

I will be adapting the Ground Scale and Size Class rules from Robot Warriors.
Hopefully, making them as closely compatible as possible with the scale rules from the Mass Combat System in FH... ;)

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

I agree that any new attempt at a Robot Warriors book should be done in the style of the "Ultimate" series of books. It should be as generic as possible' date=' giving guidelines and examples on how to create a plethora of mecha from realistic all the way to Godlike. [/quote']

 

exactly

 

 

What I don't agree with is such a book focusing on a specific style or type of mecha.

 

Did I give that impression? The focusing the book on one or two settings/types? I don't recall saying anything like that myself, unless a screwed up another post, which is entirely possible :ugly:

 

I have said there should be a book that discusses and guides the creation of Mecha by types, of which I have six. Human sized, regular and giant, with each having realistic or fantastic for six overall types. I mostly do this because I believe size/scale and being realistic/fantastic tends to lead to the biggest differences. A guide that discusses and demonstrates how to build each of these "types" would basically cover all the general mecha out there. After that is would be much much easier to customize to meet specific needs.

 

All in all we have been echoing the same general thoughts, except you seem to think I am advocating a narrow focus book based on one or two versions of mecha.

 

 

 

Attempting to base the hard rules on one or two specific styles will ultimately end up alienating those styles that aren't considered in the original equation.

 

What hard rules based on two specific styles? You've confused me :nonp:

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

What hard rules based on two specific styles? You've confused me :nonp:

 

 

Sorry to confuse you. It seems that I've simply misread your original intent. Seems we're on the same page here.

 

As a great lover of Supermecha, I'm very used to game designers completely and utterly ignoring my favorite subgenre and I'm damned tired of it. It makes me a bit sensitive when it comes to this particular subject.

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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?

 

Chris is attempting to "translate" (if you will) the old Hero System game Robot Warriors updating it to the 5th edition.

 

This is very much what I hope to do, specifically rewriting and cleaning up the RW rules so that they are usable with 5th edition. Ideally the whole work will include one chapter that is the Robot Warriors design rules, updated, and another chapter for using the HERO System vehicle rules. However, until and unless I get the go ahead from Steve Long to do the RW update, I'm not going to be able to; not that I won't write it up myself, but I won't be able to publish it. Therefore, I'm going to focus on writing up effectively an entire mecha genre book, along with guidelines for using the HERO System vehicle rules for writing up mecha that are as compatible as I can reasonably make them with the Robot Warriors design rules; my purpose in doing this is so that a GM could drop in either set of rules and have mecha with a similar look and feel.

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