Would you allow this mental power?

[Vestnik]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Either one...but what is the disadd for always on? sure it's on the list, but how does it actually limit you?

Hmmm I'd give a -1 Per for every 3 pts of mental def.......Question: do you not sense things with no emotions? Or do you sense the absence?

 

The character wouldn't sense anything -- he senses emotions, not minds or mental states. An automaton or someone in deep sleep would be completely invisible to the power.

[Vestnik]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I'm having a little trouble figuring out how being able to detect emotions leads to increased abilities in combat.

 

I can see how it might alert you to the presence of someone with immanent hostilities on their mind, but once combat has been started, isn't it pretty obvious that the person trying to insert a sharp piece of metal in you has fairly malevolent emotions towards you?

 

Knowing that Mike Tyson is four feet away from you and feeling intense anger is useful, but I don't know how it's going to help me not get pummeled.

 

Now, on the other hand, if the power worked in the opposite direction, and you could make your opponent feel an emotion you generated, as opposed to you being able to detect theirs, I could see that having an effect on combat. A demoralized opponent is less likely to be operating at peak efficiency. A sympathetic opponent might feel hostile towards you and purposefully miss. A bored opponent might get sidetracked.

 

I think you're right on second (third) thought...

[Vestnik]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

For those of you with the USPD, look up the Aura Sense power. That's pretty much Detect Emotions in a nutshell.

 

I have a character with a very similar power construct in my Champs game right now, and we sat down and worked out just what such a power would detect and how. She can figure out what emotion a target is primarily feeling, though (obviously) not what has spawned said emotion. Hers is bought 'Human class of minds only' and 'blocked by Mental Defense', as a side note.

 

What Limitation value did you give for Blocked by Mental Defense? -1/4?

[Tonio]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I'm having a little trouble figuring out how being able to detect emotions leads to increased abilities in combat.

 

I can see how it might alert you to the presence of someone with immanent hostilities on their mind, but once combat has been started, isn't it pretty obvious that the person trying to insert a sharp piece of metal in you has fairly malevolent emotions towards you?

 

Knowing that Mike Tyson is four feet away from you and feeling intense anger is useful, but I don't know how it's going to help me not get pummeled.

 

Now, on the other hand, if the power worked in the opposite direction, and you could make your opponent feel an emotion you generated, as opposed to you being able to detect theirs, I could see that having an effect on combat. A demoralized opponent is less likely to be operating at peak efficiency. A sympathetic opponent might feel hostile towards you and purposefully miss. A bored opponent might get sidetracked.

 

Sensing emotions can be extremely helpful in combat, if you're familiar enough with it to be able to use it. You start a punch, sense your opponent feel confident about you not retaliating, and you know he hasn't noticed you're attacking. You sense your opponent is worried about using this maneuver, because it leaves him open to attacks on his left side. You sense your opponent is expecting kicks from you, so attacking with punches will catch him off guard. Etc.

 

It all depends on the detail with which you can sense emotions. General "he's hostile" or "she's happy" feelings won't help much, but detailed enough can be great help.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Sensing emotions can be extremely helpful in combat, if you're familiar enough with it to be able to use it. You start a punch, sense your opponent feel confident about you not retaliating, and you know he hasn't noticed you're attacking. You sense your opponent is worried about using this maneuver, because it leaves him open to attacks on his left side. You sense your opponent is expecting kicks from you, so attacking with punches will catch him off guard. Etc.

 

It all depends on the detail with which you can sense emotions. General "he's hostile" or "she's happy" feelings won't help much, but detailed enough can be great help.

 

As a note, I don't think that "sensing kicks" is an emotion. It's a thought pattern or Analyze: Fighting Style. I don't have emotions devoted to whether I kick or punch; I do have emotions devoted to fighting in general: Fear, Pride, Rage, and so on. By all means, YMMV, but 'emotion' and 'I'm going to punch him' are not related IMO.

[Tonio]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

As a note' date=' I don't think that "sensing kicks" is an [i']emotion[/i]. It's a thought pattern or Analyze: Fighting Style. I don't have emotions devoted to whether I kick or punch; I do have emotions devoted to fighting in general: Fear, Pride, Rage, and so on. By all means, YMMV, but 'emotion' and 'I'm going to punch him' are not related IMO.

 

Hrm, I must've not expressed myself clearly... I did not mean to say you're sensing your opponents desire to kick or punch. You're sensing how your opponent feels about what he's doing, or what you're doing. He's kicking, but he's worried about how open that leaves him to attacks. He's punching, and feeling confident about how that protects his upper body. He's doing whatever, and is expecting kicks from you. You feint as if to punch, or start punching, and don't sense a reaction from him, so it's likely he hasn't noticed the attack. Or you sense a defensive reaction from him, so you pull back your punch, turning it into a feint, and kick instead.

 

I don't think emotions are limited to general blanket feelings. I can certainly feel angry, but that anger is almost surely directed at something specific, and can be tinged with worry for my wellbeing, specifically the wellbeing of a specific body part, and also feel hostility towards a specific person, and confidence that my punch will be enough to slip through his defenses and smack into his smug face. Sensing "anger" is pretty shallow, sensing "anger towards me" is deeper, "anger towards me, worried that I'm going to hurt his torso" even more so, etc... I'd say a Detect that's Discriminating and Analyzing should be able to sense the whole thing, which should give you some combat advantage, since you know he's vulnerable in his torso, and you know he's inclined to attack with punches and to your face. (Not for free, of course... just saying I feel it's justified to buy CSLs based on this.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

As to mental defence, perhaps -1 PER for each X points of mental defence (I'd probably go with 5 points, pinecone suggested 3 EDIT: and as Thia suggested in the very first response linky -1 per 1 or 2 points of MD - I wouldn't argue. I'd probably peg it at -1/4, or even -0 if mental defence was rare.).

 

Also I might include some sort of limtiation (maybe at -0) allowing opponents to mask or even disguise their emotions with an appropriate roll (EGO, Acting, Yoga/Meditiaiton). This would then act as a contest of skills: PER roll against 'defence roll'. It wouldn't be worth as much as a RSR limitation because opponents would not necessarily realise they CAN use a skill to resist, or that they need to at that particular time.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Hrm' date=' I must've not expressed myself clearly... I did not mean to say you're sensing your opponents desire to kick or punch. You're sensing how your opponent feels about what he's doing, or what you're doing. He's kicking, but he's worried about how open that leaves him to attacks. He's punching, and feeling confident about how that protects his upper body. He's doing whatever, and is expecting kicks from you. You feint as if to punch, or start punching, and don't sense a reaction from him, so it's likely he hasn't noticed the attack. Or you sense a defensive reaction from him, so you pull back your punch, turning it into a feint, and kick instead.[/quote']

 

No, I think I picked up what you were laying down, I just don't agree that this is appropriate to a 'sense emotions' type power. To me, this is an Analyze: Fighting Style, RSR, Must Be Currently Sensing Target's Emotions. It's one of those "agree to disagree, what works for you is fine with me, YMMV" sort of things. I just don't see it this way, that's all. Valid point though, and despite my opinion, well made and I see where you're coming from.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

As to mental defence, perhaps -1 PER for each X points of mental defence (I'd probably go with 5 points, pinecone suggested 3 - I wouldn't argue. I'd probably peg it at -1/4, or even -0 if mental defence was rare.).

 

Also I might include some sort of limtiation (maybe at -0) allowing opponents to mask or even disguise their emotions with an appropriate roll (EGO, Acting, Yoga/Meditiaiton). This would then act as a contest of skills: PER roll against 'defence roll'. It wouldn't be worth as much as a RSR limitation because opponents would not necessarily realise they CAN use a skill to resist, or that they need to at that particular time.

 

Didn't I say this already?

[Tonio]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

No' date=' I think I picked up what you were laying down, I just don't agree that this is appropriate to a 'sense emotions' type power. To me, this is an Analyze: Fighting Style, RSR, Must Be Currently Sensing Target's Emotions. It's one of those "agree to disagree, what works for you is fine with me, YMMV" sort of things. I just don't see it this way, that's all. Valid point though, and despite my opinion, well made and I see where you're coming from.[/quote']

 

Ah ok, no problem there. I just thought what I'd said came out to be "I sense you wanting to use a Martial Strike (Punch) on me". I can certainly see why and how someone would disagree on my views of sensing emotions during combat. More to the point, Analyze: Fighting Style, Must Be Currently Sensing Target's Emotions (I feel the RSR is unnecessary, since both Analyze and the Detect Emotions already involve skill rolls, but a case could be made that an additional roll is required to correlate between the two) definitely models the effect better than plain CSLs, Only While Sensing Emotions. I was arguing that sensing emotions could help you in combat more than I was arguing that having Detect Emotions would be justification to buy CSLs (i.e. even though I did include game mechanics in my argument, I didn't mean to tie it to a specific construct).

[Utech]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Take your grain of salt, for here are my thoughts:

 

xd6 Telepathy' date=' Area of Effect (Radius; +1), 0 END Cost (+1/2) (x Active Points), No Range (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Only to Receive (-1/2), Emotions Only (-1/2)[/quote']

• You should replace "Emotions Only" with the Empathy Limitation (5ER page 232).
  
• You should remove the "Only to Receive" Limitation -- already covered by the Empathy Limitation.
  
• You must have the Persistent version of the Duration Advantage in order to take the Always On Limitation (5ER page 284).
  
• Your GM may raise the value of the Always On Limitation in this case because anyone who enters the power's radius is aware that your character just read their emotions. (Using the +20 modifier to your Telepathy roll would remove this problem, but sure could make the power costly...) Any character with Mental Awareness will spot your character a mile off. Your character is going to have a heck of a time remaining covert.

What's the upside of a power like this? It automatically gives you information about the emotions of

1. all the people around you,
   
2. all at the same moment,
   
3. and you can pretty much bank on the accuracy of what you receive.

Detect Emotions (Mental Sense Group)' date=' Ranged, 360 Degrees, Functions as a Sense, Discriminatory (x Active Points), Mental Defense Applies (-1/2) (I'm not sure how this last Limitation would work)[/quote']

• The Mental Sense Group provides the Range Sense Modifier for free. (5ER page 161)
  
• The value of Mental Defense Applies would depend entirely on how often your character would be limited by this Limitation. In some campaigns it might not be worth anything at all. In others, the -1/2 would be about right.
  
• Your GM may rule that, like Mind Scan, this power can be spotted with anyone with Mental Awareness.

What's the upside of this power? Your character

1. gets a PER roll to "spot" it every time an emotion comes into range,
   
2. gets a PER roll to identify, distinguish, and analyze the emotion,
   
3. can sense emotions in any direction with equal ease.

What's the downside of this power? Your character

1. could blow a PER roll and thus be unable to spot an emotion at all
   
2. could blow a PER roll and thus misidentify, incorrectly classify, or incorrectly analyze the emotion spotted,
   
3. could be overwhelmed by input in an emotional crowd,
   
4. might have to carefully focus to tease apart the emotions of several different people all at the same time (note that the Rapid Sense Modifier might help with this).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Ah ok' date=' no problem there. I just thought what I'd said came out to be "I sense you wanting to use a Martial Strike (Punch) on me". I can certainly see why and how someone would disagree on my views of sensing emotions during combat. More to the point, Analyze: Fighting Style, Must Be Currently Sensing Target's Emotions (I feel the RSR is unnecessary, since both Analyze and the Detect Emotions already involve skill rolls, but a case could be made that an additional roll is required to correlate between the two) definitely models the effect better than plain CSLs, Only While Sensing Emotions. I was arguing that sensing emotions could help you in combat more than I was arguing that having Detect Emotions would be justification to buy CSLs (i.e. even though I did include game mechanics in my argument, I didn't mean to tie it to a specific construct).[/quote']

 

... good point, I hadn't even considered for a moment that both of them would already require rolls; so it makes the most sense without the RSR, otherwise, I'd let it work in my campaign. Well said, rep if I can. I give out a lot of rep these days.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Didn't I say this already?

 

I have no idea. You think I read YOUR posts?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

What Limitation value did you give for Blocked by Mental Defense? -1/4?

 

IIRC, yes. It's common enough to get in the way every now and again, but not constantly. Most 'big bad' villains have Mental Defense, so they retain the ability to, for example, bluff.

[pinecone]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

The character wouldn't sense anything -- he senses emotions' date=' not minds or mental states. An automaton or someone in deep sleep would be completely invisible to the power.[/quote']

 

Cool, thats the way I'd go with it...I suggest Detect for this.....If you could detect the absence I'd be looking at Danger sense with some mods.....

[pinecone]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Didn't I say this already?

 

But he's from England, so he said it in cool accent....

[pinecone]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

One other point, and thats inapropriate emotions...a pycho-killer might feel great pleasure, or even affection towards someone he's about to commit violence against. You with your empathic insight might be confidantly standing flat footed when your face decides to take a vacation....

 

and...that, would be bad..... a total sociopath (if such things even exist) might have little emotion attached to stickin ya with a shiv.....might even be bored by it all.....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I have no idea. You think I read YOUR posts?

 

What?

 

Oh, I'm sorry Sean. I mistook you for Rudolph, the red-nosed jack @$$ and stopped listening there for a moment. By all means, please, do go on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

What?

 

Oh, I'm sorry Sean. I mistook you for Rudolph, the red-nosed jack @$$ and stopped listening there for a moment. By all means, please, do go on.

 

Yuk yuk yuk. I've appropriately credited your sterling work by editing my earlier post, and I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused to date. Any future offence should be considered intentional . And it is Bozo, not Rudolph.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Yuk yuk yuk. I've appropriately credited your sterling work by editing my earlier post' date=' and I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused to date. Any future offence should be considered intentional . And it is Bozo, not Rudolph.[/quote']

 

But Sean. For you to offend me, first I'd have to care what you think.

 

And I read your sig. I know it's Bozo. My reference was made both intentionally and cognitively.

[Vestnik]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

But Sean. For you to offend me, first I'd have to care what you think.

 

See, this is a perfect example. My character would not be able to detect your absence of caring what Sean thinks. On the other hand, if you felt active disdain or contempt, he would detect it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

See' date=' this is a perfect example. My character would not be able to detect your absence of caring what Sean thinks. On the other hand, if you felt active disdain or contempt, he would detect it. [/quote']

 

This is where my Mental Defense comes in; I'm actively "not emoting" much, however, if I fail that roll (your Detect vs. my EGO + MDEF) you may discern that I have a great deal of respect for him and value his opinion quite a bit, but I'm either 'confused' 'unhappy' or 'upset.' WHY I may feel that way would require an Analyze: Motive roll, which could result in "being defensive" or "not showing cards" or "intent on not losing in a contest of oneupmanship." Any of those are possible.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I think that's why I was leaning towards Detect: Emotions. Much cleaner' date=' cheaper and more efficient. You can also dress it up however you like, and in this case the two builds are not equally valid; Detect seems to be the way to go. Much like Analyze: Motive for the d20 skill Sense Motive, you could also go with Analyze: Emotions if you really felt like, so long as the GM honks as he drives his Fiat by.[/quote']

 

That's fine as long as the GM doesn't Dodge his responsibility.

 

Excuse me. I'm asleep. Clearly I didn't know the math' date=' because I very clearly said "Go with the first one" which is Telepathy, and that don't work. Not being intentionally contrary. Just half asleep.[/quote']

 

Ah, that timeless question pondered by both pessimists and optimists:

 

"Is the Thia half-asleep, or half-awake?"

 

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Ah' date=' that timeless question pondered by both pessimists and optimists[/font']:

 

"Is the Thia half-asleep, or half-awake?"

 

 

Currently Thia is up to his eyeballs designing class & racial packages so I can have a 'drag & drop' monster creation system. I was fine until I spoke with one of my players and realized just how much I have to do.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

The second is a Detect; you could build a Limitation around the power itself' date=' "Mental Defense Applies, each point of MD acts as a -1 penalty to the roll" or some such, or 2:1 or whatever makes you happy. I'm more inclined to go with the first one, although "only to receive" assumes that emotions are being 'broadcast.' So I would actually remove that, personally, and just build it as "Surface Thoughts" and then limit it again, "Only to Sense Emotions."[/quote']

 

I would go with a -1 PER per 2 pts of Mental Defense. It is suggested (GM's Option) that Clairsentience that is Only Thought The Senses Of Others take a -1 per every point of Mental Defense. Since Detecting Emotions is not as "dangerous" (read "stop sign power") as being able to see what the target sees ("Oh, so that's where the secret door to Dr. Doom's HQ is hidden. Oh, so that's what the combination is to open the secret door into Dr. Doom's Headquarters!"), I'd say that -1 per 2 pts is balanced. But I am unsure if it should get a Limitation for this -- Clairsentience doesn't.