Discussion on costs of Characteristics

[Thia Halmades]

Okay.

 

In Akiva's opening thread, I made the "passing joke" that the characteristic Strength (STR) is mispriced at 1 CP to 1 STR for balance purposes. This stems from my genuine belief that STR does a lot in this system (as does Dexterity), and should cost more than it does.

 

Chaining to that was another conversation opened by KDansky, wherein we discussed the merits of the costs of adjusted characteristics. Recently, Akiva had asked me (am I his LOL account, or is he mine? YOU be the judge!) if I could point him to a thread that actually discussed the cost of STR.

 

So rather than go digging, I figured we'd open a fresh discussion that he could participate in as well to offer his thoughts.

 

My opinion has always been, simply:

 

1:1 works in a setting where Super Strength is common; 2:1 makes far more sense in a Heroic setting where having an "above average STR" is almost the realm of the hardened combatants.

 

The flood gates are open. Do you think STR should always be 1:1? 2:1? What's your reasoning, and do you house rule it in your campaigns? Frex, my players resist change; I only have one other who actually agrees that STR is mispriced. However, I fixed it by setting Normal Characteristic Maxima at 15 + 2 Stats; in other words, it's 15, but you may select two stats to go over 15 as part of being heroic.

[jtelson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Well, considering the general utility of STR (PD, REC, Stun, Damage, Lifting Cap, Throwing Range, Movement) I generally houserule it to 2:1 and remove the mandatory/cludgey limitation on the HtH Damage power (Thus 5 points as a power gets you 1DC either at range or adding to STR).

 

In the grand old days when Supers were around 250 pts, I could almost see the point to the obviously low STR cost, but even w/ the general inflation of Skill costs that has taken place from edition to edition, the extra 100 points that most supers are built on now makes the low STR cost an unneeded artifact.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I've never had any problems with STR being 1:1, and see no reason to change it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

The biggest argument of STR needing to be 1:1 is Damage.

 

Energy Blasters get 12D6 Normal & Ranged for 60 Points.

therefore:

Hand To Hand should get 12D6 STR for 60 Points.

 

To alter the cost of STR "hoses" Bricks.

 

 

STR provides so much that I think it should be 2:1 for STR; and Hand To Hand Attack should remove the required Limitation.

 

Of course, no Bricks must buy both High STR at a higher cost - spending 100pts for a 12D6 HtH Attack, or have a Reduced STR with a H-t-H Attack Power to Compensate. Probably still spending more than someone else buying Energy Blast for 60 Points, and getting Range out of it to boot.

[Comic]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I can see making this argument for characters who aren't all about STR.

 

People with battle suits that give them every attack under the sun, people with heat ray vision and icy breath and mental telepathy.. for them, a high STR seems overkill.

 

Dr. Destroyer has _how much_ STR?! _PLUS_ his EB's? Why?

 

Mechanon is how strong, and can shoot what level of RKA? Why?

 

So, sure, for those who don't use STR as the basis for their characters, it should be 2 AP per point of STR. For Bricks, Martial Artists, Power Suits with no other attack options than STR, 1 AP seems quite reasonable and balanced.

[jtelson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I can see making this argument for characters who aren't all about STR.

 

People with battle suits that give them every attack under the sun, people with heat ray vision and icy breath and mental telepathy.. for them, a high STR seems overkill.

 

Dr. Destroyer has _how much_ STR?! _PLUS_ his EB's? Why?

 

Mechanon is how strong, and can shoot what level of RKA? Why?

 

So, sure, for those who don't use STR as the basis for their characters, it should be 2 AP per point of STR. For Bricks, Martial Artists, Power Suits with no other attack options than STR, 1 AP seems quite reasonable and balanced.

 

Character Classes for Hero? Next thing you know we'll need to buy the Complete Brick, Complete Energy Projector, Complete Martial Artist etc for all the applicable rules.

[JmOz]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

The reason why I feel we should leave Prime Characteristics alone is when you compare it not to the figured characteristics but to Power Frameworks.

 

In games that do not allow Frameworks an argumentcan be made for recalculating the cost, but if you recost them and allow frameworks characteristics based characters are no longer competitive.

 

Mage boy with his Multipower full of spells who can do a couple dozen different things, and adds new things for a few points, while the big bad barbarian now gets no cost breaks, not really fair.

 

The failure most people see is that they look only at "How much does Figured Characteristics get you" but rather how does it balance with the rest of the system

 

As a piece of supporting evidence, I would point out that you need to buy "No figured Characteristics" on any characteristic placed in a Framework, I do not consider this a couinsidence.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Well said, JmOz.

 

I also look at it this way; this way is probably slanted because I only use HERO for Champions games.

 

With STR at 1:1, sometimes people play bricks, sometimes they don't.

 

With STR at 2:1, I can't imagine anybody playing a true brick. Martial Artist, perhaps (defined as 'HTH combat specialist without a high STR', not necesarily a possessor of Martial Arts skills), but not a true brick.

[jtelson]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

The reason why I feel we should leave Prime Characteristics alone is when you compare it not to the figured characteristics but to Power Frameworks.

 

In games that do not allow Frameworks an argumentcan be made for recalculating the cost, but if you recost them and allow frameworks characteristics based characters are no longer competitive.

 

Mage boy with his Multipower full of spells who can do a couple dozen different things, and adds new things for a few points, while the big bad barbarian now gets no cost breaks, not really fair.

 

The failure most people see is that they look only at "How much does Figured Characteristics get you" but rather how does it balance with the rest of the system

 

As a piece of supporting evidence, I would point out that you need to buy "No figured Characteristics" on any characteristic placed in a Framework, I do not consider this a couinsidence.

 

Even without the figured characteristics STR nets you, Damage, Movement, Lifting cap, Range, and entangle/obstacle effect mitigation. Compared to say an EB it's just hands down more valuable.

And in frameworks the Damage portion can be aquired at a cost equal to that of EB with an adds STR component rather than the ranged component.

[caris]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

OK, so Thia are you saying that Blacksmiths, Longshoremen, General Labors, Low Tech Farmers should all only average or below STR, or that they are all also hardened combatants?

 

Seriously, lets start with your comment about “Heroic” games. You were being a tad too general for my tastes. Even in Heroic campaigns higher than average STR still to me is fairly common, particularly for PC type characters. The rules assume that PCs are above average, generally, that is why default Characteristic base is 10 and we are a character sheet for an Average Person with straight 8s in all Primary Characteristics. So even before you get to the costing aspects Hero encourages PCs that are not “hardened combatants” to have above average STR.

 

I kind of want to go off on a bit of a tangent here. We like to highlight and play up Hero’s “universitality,” an its “toolkit” nature. For some reason I’m reminded of my favorite cooking show Good Eats, and its host Alton Brown’s disdain for “unitaskers.” Even Alton will admit that a tool designed for a specific task probably does that task better than a general tool. He just thinks that most tasks are not done enough in the average home kitchen to justify the added cost. He also sees a limit to how versatile he will try to make a tool. I doubt he regularly tries to stir his soups with his chef’s knife. I also doubt he generally uses it for paring or peeling either. If and/or when he does attempt to take his chef knife so far from its designed uses, he realizes that he has to put more effort and care into getting the job done well.

 

The true is same for Hero. Hero is designed to do a lot of tasks well, but it isn’t going to be able to do everything and be everything without some work. Lets look at the Characteristics. The pricing of the Characteristics are optimized with a certain set of criteria in mind, but these criteria are not going to be applicable to all campaigns (heresy, I know, people that don’t want those criteria are having badfun). Let us be even more honest, the “official” Characteristics aren’t going to be equally applicable to all campaigns. I know campaigns that need additional characteristics. I know others that don’t need all of the existing characteristics. My point is that people should understand that Hero serves best as a foundation to work from, but that they are still going to have to put some work into getting the final result that they desire. If you want to play a game where you don’t want to put in that kind of effort, you should find a purpose designed system that is focused on your needs.

 

Now getting back to STR, and its costing specifically. Personally, I’ve never ran or played in a game, where I felt that a change in pricing of STR was necessary for balance, common sense or fair play.

 

As I mentioned in Dansky’s thread, I find that STR is a small matter. In a Heroic Campaign (one assuming NCM by default and the lower power levels) we are talking about a savings of only a couple of points most likely. Even if you take out the Power Frameworks, there are other cost saving mechanics that I find more egregious than STR and CON.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Well said, JmOz.

 

I also look at it this way; this way is probably slanted because I only use HERO for Champions games.

 

With STR at 1:1, sometimes people play bricks, sometimes they don't.

 

With STR at 2:1, I can't imagine anybody playing a true brick. Martial Artist, perhaps (defined as 'HTH combat specialist without a high STR', not necesarily a possessor of Martial Arts skills), but not a true brick.

 

But this is the nature of my argument: you're running a superheroic game, where it's almost a crap shoot if you'll have a high STR, and then even characters who aren't power lifters will still have STR well above the 'average' human. For a heroic game, however, there are no 'bricks,' other than the odd strong man character, and in the event of that character, he stands out so much, and gets so much benefit from higher STR, that I don't see how you wouldn't assign it a 2:1 ratio.

 

Again, this chains to my argument, "Two Versions of HERO" -- one that focuses on Superheroic gaming, and one that focuses purely on Heroic gaming. I don't even need a big section on heroic, but I would like to see a lot more attention paid to it.

[JmOz]

But this is the nature of my argument: you're running a superheroic game, where it's almost a crap shoot if you'll have a high STR, and then even characters who aren't power lifters will still have STR well above the 'average' human. For a heroic game, however, there are no 'bricks,' other than the odd strong man character, and in the event of that character, he stands out so much, and gets so much benefit from higher STR, that I don't see how you wouldn't assign it a 2:1 ratio.

 

Again, this chains to my argument, "Two Versions of HERO" -- one that focuses on Superheroic gaming, and one that focuses purely on Heroic gaming. I don't even need a big section on heroic, but I would like to see a lot more attention paid to it.

 

Most Fantasy Games I have played in and ran have used frameworks for spellcasting.

 

Personaly, and this is a core issue to me, I don't want to play the new DOJ game the "Average System", I want to play "Hero System", I do feel that a Hero should be better in almost everyway to an "average guy", My Fantasy Warrior should be stronger, faster, smarter, stronger convictions, more likeable, etc... than a peasent farmer.

 

To understand why I would not assign it a "2:1" is because I look at my 10 years of working with the system to run both Heroic and Super Heroic. In practice: Strong characters in Heroic tend to get very little additional damage and defense over what they would otherwise get from the Free armor and weapons, for that matter I have found 5 points of wealth to be more unbalancing than the cost of strength. In modern and futuristic settings (going to pulps era) the use of firearms as the primary attack makes strength of little note, enforced Str Minimums & x2 Damage rules for Fantasy makes Melee not that big of a deal

 

Further more when you are dealing with str's of 15-25 the usefulness of extra strength for moving obsticles is not that significant.

 

Like I said it is a matter of looking at the whole system not the 20 some points you get for 10; but rather or not you get to use every aspect of it.

[lemming]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I think JmOz is making my point much better than I could. 1:1

 

Recost STR and I'd go thru all the stats and probably just drop figured stats, but that would have a bit of a ripple as well.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

But this is the nature of my argument: you're running a superheroic game' date=' where it's almost a crap shoot if you'll have a high STR, and then even characters who aren't power lifters will still have STR well above the 'average' human. [/quote']

 

That's because they aren't average people. They're heroes.

 

For a heroic game, however, there are no 'bricks,' other than the odd strong man character, and in the event of that character, he stands out so much, and gets so much benefit from higher STR, that I don't see how you wouldn't assign it a 2:1 ratio.

 

That's what Normal Characteristic Maxima, and the doubling thereafter, are for, IMHO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

There is oftent his weird disconnect - you amy have noticed it yourself - between what things shoudl be like in an ideal world, and how they are in the here and now, and despite that, the here and now version usually works.

 

I doubt anyone could seriously argue that strength is really priced appropriately compared to other abilities in the system as it actually generates more abilities, in terms of point cost, than it costs itself (10 STR yields 2 pd, 2 REC and 5 STUN, an 11 point package, plus 2" of leaping, for another 2 points, and that is before you take into accountt eh utility of being able to lift, throw and cause damage).

 

The framework argument doesn't work well for me: sans figured characteristics, you can plonk Strength in an MP, and with GM permission you can put it in other frameworks. The only reason those resitrictions are there at all is that strength already works like a mini-framework with the figured characteristics, and you can't stick one framework inside another. So people can put strength in frameworks, we just generally don;t because we don;t want to take the hit ont he figured characteristics.

 

Strength has always cost the same in Hero and we've all grown up with it: we don't usually notice it anymore.

 

Despite all that it works: The overall game balance is generally preserved, and bricks, whilst I personally believe them to be some of the most efficient character builds, are not clear leaders in the game

 

Also the argument against change is pretty persuasive to me: normal attacks do not cost more than 5 points per 1d6, and strength cost increase would mean that changes AND, assuming we use active point caps, you wouldn't be able to get a strength above 35 in a 60 AP game. That's the difference between just being able to lift a truck and being able to throw a subway car 24 metres. A toolkit system as Hero has become needs to be able to model the sorts of strength we often see in comics: way over 35 in many cases.

 

So, my view is we have 2 options: we either leave it where it is, or we make sweeping changes. The worst option, to my mind, would be to simply change the cost and leave everyhting else where it is because quite a lot of system balances are in place BECAUSE of the cost of strength, and to ignore them would cause further problems. Sure you could make it work at any cost, but that doesn't make it the best option.

 

To sweep, then: Strength would just be another power, granting you the ability to exert force to lift, squeeze, push. In other words 'slow strength'. It is not much use for punching or throwing - we need a different ability for that, and it comes in the form of 'fast strength'. That works just like any other normal damaging power, enabling you to damage in HtH, by punching, kicking or throwing an object.

 

Together, fast strength and slow strength do everything that strength does now, but they are technically seperate abilities, so even though the overall cost is higher, active points are not an issue. One should almost always be linked to the other (the smaller tot he larger) as draining one almost always drains the other, for example. Each form of strength costs 1 point for 1 point. You start with a base 10 as usual. You can stick them in frameworks freely. You do not get any figured characteristics or bonus leaping.

 

Anyway, that's what I think.

[JmOz]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I find it odd that you say the mini-framework argument does not work for you then you turn around and agree with it

 

"The framework argument doesn't work well for me: sans figured characteristics, you can plonk Strength in an MP, and with GM permission you can put it in other frameworks. The only reason those resitrictions are there at all is that strength already works like a mini-framework with the figured characteristics, and you can't stick one framework inside another. So people can put strength in frameworks, we just generally don;t because we don;t want to take the hit ont he figured characteristics."

 

At least my main point between the relationship of Figured Characteristics and prime characteristics is that Prime characteristics are a form of framework.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

My opinion has always been, simply:

 

1:1 works in a setting where Super Strength is common; 2:1 makes far more sense in a Heroic setting where having an "above average STR" is almost the realm of the hardened combatants.

 

This almost perfectly summarizes my own opinion and experience on the matter, at least for Heroic genres where muscle power is a major factor, such as most Fantasy campaigns. In high-tech sci-fi settings high STR tends to have less of an impact.

 

Considering that the rules suggest changing the Endurance cost for STR use from 1 END/10 STR to 1 END/5 STR for some Heroic campaigns, there's already sufficient precedent for doubling the cost. In campaigns where that's been the ground rule I've even seen PCs sell back a couple of points of STR to get 4 Character Points to use in other areas.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Character Classes for Hero? Next thing you know we'll need to buy the Complete Brick' date=' Complete Energy Projector, Complete Martial Artist etc for all the applicable rules. [/quote']

 

As opposed to the Ultimate Brick, Ultimate Energy Projector, Ultimate Martial Artist etc.?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

As opposed to the Ultimate Brick' date=' Ultimate Energy Projector, Ultimate Martial Artist etc.? [/quote']

 

Dude, his roots are showing.

 

His d20 roots that is. We clearly need to get some more HERO texts and bathe him in them.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

1:1 works in a setting where Super Strength is common; 2:1 makes far more sense in a Heroic setting where having an "above average STR" is almost the realm of the hardened combatants.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with this.

 

Before I go any further, disclosure: I haven't read beyond the first post in the thread. I apologize if I cover ground someone has already been over.

 

There's a great reason for raising the cost that has nothing to do with the amount of Figured Characteristics you get. Specifically, Normal vs. Killing damage.

 

1d6 of RKA is 15 points; 1d6 of HKA is also 15 points. The differences between the two are that one is ranged and the other lets you add your base STR damage. This has been used to derive a hypothetical "STR Adds" Advantage for +1/2, the same cost as Usable At Range. Ignoring that, one Damage Class of Killing Attack, whether Hand-to-hand or Ranged, costs 5 points.

 

One Damage Class of ranged, Normal damage (aka Energy Blast) also costs 5 points. However, one Damage Class of Hand-to-hand, Normal damage, to which Strength adds (aka Hand-to-hand Attack) has an arbitrary free -1/2 Limitation applied to it, in order to give it an Active Cost of 5 points per d6 and a Real Cost of 3 points per d6. It's an anomaly, ranking up there with the handwaving required to turn Healing into Regeneration by the book. The rationale for doing it this way is that you're effectively buying 5 STR, Only For Attack, somewhat arbitrarily priced at -1/2. If you make STR 2 points per point, this arbitrary pricing falls away, and you can make Hand-to-hand Normal damage cost 5 points per Damage Class and having it balance correctly with the other damage-causing Powers.

 

I'm of the opinion that STR should cost 2 points per point by default, with an option for making it 1 point per point for superheroic campaigns (or at GM's option).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Speaking of HA, does anyone besides me think that it was fine in 4E at being priced at 1d6 Normal Damage per 3 Base Points? Admittedly it can be confusing if your campaign uses Active Point caps, but Damage Class caps handle it fine.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Speaking of HA' date=' does anyone besides me think that it was fine in 4E at being priced at 1d6 Normal Damage per 3 Base Points? Admittedly it can be confusing if your campaign uses Active Point caps, but Damage Class caps handle it fine.[/quote']

 

We were just discussing this; Chris was wondering why HA was priced at 5/1d6 and if they were "making up" the limitation "Hand to Hand Attack, -1/2;" I can see where a brother got confused. It also goes back to the reasoning for STR 2:1, because this feels like SUCH a kludge.

[JmOz]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Speaking of HA' date=' does anyone besides me think that it was fine in 4E at being priced at 1d6 Normal Damage per 3 Base Points? Admittedly it can be confusing if your campaign uses Active Point caps, but Damage Class caps handle it fine.[/quote']

 

Actualy, I would (And watch Chris have a heart attack, btw I will be responding to your post Chris, but I feel a well thought out postion like yours deserves an equaly well thought out response) actualy like to see HA be removed from the game and that it just become a limited form of strength, A few simple limitations added under the characteristic powers, like damage only (-1/2), or combat only (-1/4), plus NCM so you could actualy get a -1 lim on them

[JmOz]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

We were just discussing this; Chris was wondering why HA was priced at 5/1d6 and if they were "making up" the limitation "Hand to Hand Attack' date=' -1/2;" I can see where a brother got confused. It also goes back to the reasoning for STR 2:1, because this feels like SUCH a kludge.[/quote']

 

I admit this does seem a little kludge, but see above on how I would handle it

 

And I don't consider a minor kludge reason to screw over any character with a strength character concept vs someone with a framework based concept over a minor kludge like this

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Actualy' date=' I would (And watch Chris have a heart attack, btw[/quote']

 

Ha! I've been around since 3rd edition, which didn't have a separate hand-to-hand normal attack Power. So it's not such a shock to me to see it removed. OTOH, it, or something like it, needs to be there; I tried to build a character back in 3rd edition days which could have used it, and we had to kludge something up for it.