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Discussion on costs of Characteristics


Thia Halmades

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I admit this does seem a little kludge, but see above on how I would handle it

 

And I don't consider a minor kludge reason to screw over any character with a strength character concept vs someone with a framework based concept over a minor kludge like this

 

Well, I don't see anyone getting screwed by anything; I almost consider that kind of extreme. A 2:1 STR ratio doesn't "screw" anyone going for Brick; they pay the points, they get all the bonuses, if the cost is 2:1 across the board, then the playing field remains even. I certainly appreciate your position, but I don't see it as 'screwing' anyone, and like I said; a 14 STR -- especially in HERO -- is quite high. For the Heroic genre, it works very nicely.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Also the argument against change is pretty persuasive to me: normal attacks do not cost more than 5 points per 1d6' date=' and strength cost increase would mean that changes AND, assuming we use active point caps, you wouldn't be able to get a strength above 35 in a 60 AP game.[/quote']

 

That argument would be true, iff STR were an Attack Power. But it's a Characteristic. The fact that you get something like 8 points worth of Figured Characteristics for spending 5 points even makes up for that; at that point, your +1d6 of damage costs something like -3 points.

 

In a 2:1 game, STR could go as high as 40 in a 60 AP game. Or 30, depending on how you count it (40 would be 80 AP worth of STR, but 60 points spent on it; 30 would be 60 AP worth of STR).

 

STR at 2:1 would bring the cost of normal HTH damage up to 5 points per d6, where it belongs. Spending 10 points on STR would get you your 8 points of Figured plus your 1d6 of damage, for 13 points total.

 

And you could keep 1:1 as an option for superheroic games, for the bricks with megalift. Hand-to-hand Attack doesn't honestly work well in a superheroic game anyway, given that the guys in superheroic games likely to have bonus hand-to-hand dice are going to get it through either high STR or Martial Arts.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I have no problem with it being handled either way (leave it as is) or (increase the cost to 2:1 and remove the HA Limitation).

 

The latter would increase the frequency of specialty bricks (Density, Growth, Aid, HA Tricks etc..). It really only screws the 'Pure STR Brick' that doesn't have any of those other options. I don't see this as a bad thing. It's still a viable option to buy extra STR as a multipower slot (and it automatically gets a -1/2 No Figured Limitation).

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

...(and it automatically gets a -1/2 No Figured Limitation).

 

Which, in turn, reduces the cost back down; not to the straight 1:1 setting, but certainly low enough to be a worthwhile purchase. And again, like I said; I'm not advocating this as "t3h 1z br0k3n!212!!!!@! OH NOES!2!@!!!" I'm saying, for my part, that I think 2:1 is a better representation for Heroic, but HM makes a phenomenal point.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Which' date=' in turn, reduces the cost back down; not to the straight 1:1 setting, but certainly low enough to be a worthwhile purchase. And again, like I said; I'm not advocating this as "t3h 1z br0k3n!212!!!!@! OH NOES!2!@!!!" I'm saying, for my part, that I think 2:1 is a better representation for Heroic, but HM makes a phenomenal point.[/quote']

 

Only if there are no weapons, no armor, and no frameworks

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Honestly, the only reason I've seen for keeping Strength at 1:1 is Active Point cost for purposes of advantages and limitations. Seems to me that if you simply create some rules for calculating the AP cost for just the damage portion of Strength, you can bypass that problem. After all, Strength is the only characteristic where AP cost comes into play. If you could buy advantages and limitations on the damage portion separate from the rest of the stat (so even though your 60 STR costs 100 points, the +1/4 advantage would be bought on 60 points and thus cost 15 added points), then there is no problem. Most experienced HERO gamemasters could handle that easily enough.

 

For the value, it really needs to be 2:1. Even at that price, bricks are still pretty cost-efficient. +10 Strength would cost 20 points, and give +2 PD, +2 REC, +5 STUN, and +2d6 HTH damage (Leaping is only of value if the character prefers that method of movement). That's before you look at the benefits that are harder to define in point value (ability to escape Grabs and Entangles, etc).

 

As it stands, there's no rules reason for having a 10 STR - buying up to 13 STR gets you +1 PD, +1 REC, and +2 STUN, a 5 point value. That's worth it even if you never plan to make a STR-based attack.

 

Despite the above, it may be easier in the long run to decouple primary and secondary characteristics. It has the disadvantage of making CON basically useless, but it simplifies the balancing process considerably.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Dude, his roots are showing.

 

His d20 roots that is. ;) We clearly need to get some more HERO texts and bathe him in them.

 

God no :) Some more nice genre books would be welcome, but The Ultimate line used to be one or two steps away from the d20 Complete books but my understanding is the UEP has begun to seriously blur the line.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Dude, his roots are showing.

 

His d20 roots that is. ;) We clearly need to get some more HERO texts and bathe him in them.

Ouch.

 

However, as you're offering, I _am_ looking for a copy of CotN, and wouldn't mind a few of the Ultimate books -- Speedster, Mentalist, MA.

 

I'll take PDF, so if you just have the Hero Store send me a copy of each, I'll start that bath on your account. :D

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I find it odd that you say the mini-framework argument does not work for you then you turn around and agree with it

 

"The framework argument doesn't work well for me: sans figured characteristics, you can plonk Strength in an MP, and with GM permission you can put it in other frameworks. The only reason those resitrictions are there at all is that strength already works like a mini-framework with the figured characteristics, and you can't stick one framework inside another. So people can put strength in frameworks, we just generally don;t because we don;t want to take the hit ont he figured characteristics."

 

At least my main point between the relationship of Figured Characteristics and prime characteristics is that Prime characteristics are a form of framework.

 

You may have missed my point, and indeed the ones that followed.

 

I was saying that the argument that strength is cheap because you can't put it in a framework doesn't work for me, because you can.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Even without the figured characteristics STR nets you, Damage, Movement, Lifting cap, Range, and entangle/obstacle effect mitigation. Compared to say an EB it's just hands down more valuable.

And in frameworks the Damage portion can be aquired at a cost equal to that of EB with an adds STR component rather than the ranged component.

 

An EB is not hand to hand damage with range. It also adds the ability to spread the atack. I've seen the Brick's player note that he is far less effective dealing with large groups of weaker targets (agents in Supers games) because his attack is a "hit one guy at a time" attack. Meanwhile, the Energy Projector, even lacking an AoE attack, spreads his EB to target 4 hexes and hits 2 or 3 agents with 8d6 instead of one with 12d6 (and the Brick hits one with 8d6 because he doesn't want to use full damage and hospitalize him).

 

That Speedster or MA with a 15 DCV and minimal defenses frustrates our Brick immensely, but the EP spreads to boost his OCV, knowing the target has low defenses, so reductions in damage will still allow the attack to have an impact when it connects.

 

We were just discussing this; Chris was wondering why HA was priced at 5/1d6 and if they were "making up" the limitation "Hand to Hand Attack' date=' -1/2;" I can see where a brother got confused. It also goes back to the reasoning for STR 2:1, because this feels like SUCH a kludge.[/quote']

 

STR No Figured makes a relatively effective HA. Call Leaping a Figured and toss out Lifting as a -0 and you're pretty much there.

 

That argument would be true' date=' iff STR were an Attack Power. But it's a Characteristic. The fact that you get something like 8 points worth of Figured Characteristics for spending 5 points even makes up for that; at that point, your +1d6 of damage costs something like [i']-3[/i] points.

 

In a 2:1 game, STR could go as high as 40 in a 60 AP game. Or 30, depending on how you count it (40 would be 80 AP worth of STR, but 60 points spent on it; 30 would be 60 AP worth of STR).

 

STR at 2:1 would bring the cost of normal HTH damage up to 5 points per d6, where it belongs. Spending 10 points on STR would get you your 8 points of Figured plus your 1d6 of damage, for 13 points total.

 

And you could keep 1:1 as an option for superheroic games, for the bricks with megalift. Hand-to-hand Attack doesn't honestly work well in a superheroic game anyway, given that the guys in superheroic games likely to have bonus hand-to-hand dice are going to get it through either high STR or Martial Arts.

 

This strikes at the crux of the issue - both STR and CON grant more than their cost in figured characteristics. +10 STR grants +2 PD, +5 STUN and +2 REC - value 11 points. My solution? Rejig the formuli a bit and LOWER the cost of STUN, REC and END. Make Figured from STR and BOD actually worth 1/3 of the cost of STR, so -1/2 makes sense. Raise the No Fig limit for CON.

 

In my view, the real imbalance lies with the Fig's. How often do you see a character who burns END too quickly buy more END and REC? No, that's too expensive - he'll buy Reduced END instead. That tough combatant should have high STUN and REC for staying power, right? No way - he'll buy more defenses and Damage Reduction - they're far more cost effective.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

That argument would be true' date=' iff STR were an Attack Power. But it's a Characteristic. The fact that you get something like 8 points worth of Figured Characteristics for spending 5 points even makes up for that; at that point, your +1d6 of damage costs something like [i']-3[/i] points.

 

In a 2:1 game, STR could go as high as 40 in a 60 AP game. Or 30, depending on how you count it (40 would be 80 AP worth of STR, but 60 points spent on it; 30 would be 60 AP worth of STR).

 

STR at 2:1 would bring the cost of normal HTH damage up to 5 points per d6, where it belongs. Spending 10 points on STR would get you your 8 points of Figured plus your 1d6 of damage, for 13 points total.

 

And you could keep 1:1 as an option for superheroic games, for the bricks with megalift. Hand-to-hand Attack doesn't honestly work well in a superheroic game anyway, given that the guys in superheroic games likely to have bonus hand-to-hand dice are going to get it through either high STR or Martial Arts.

 

Hmm... how about in Superheroic games, you make STR 1:1 and use the HA Limitation; while in Heroic games STR is 2:1 and you don't use the Limitation, making HA straight 5:d6? A minimal adjustment that's easy to remember and apply, and won't massively obfuscate published examples.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

You may have missed my point, and indeed the ones that followed.

 

I was saying that the argument that strength is cheap because you can't put it in a framework doesn't work for me, because you can.

 

But only after you have put on No figured, which changes the usefulnes of str considerably

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

God no :) Some more nice genre books would be welcome' date=' but The Ultimate line used to be one or two steps away from the d20 Complete books but my understanding is the UEP has begun to seriously blur the line.[/quote']

 

UEP is the greatest Ultimate book ever written. Bar none.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I think 2: 1 would be ok, but would needs to have some other system changes added along with it, such as how Lift is calculated.

 

Otherwise your starting level brick in your 60Ap/12DC supers game is limited to the Spider-man/Beast range of lifting, as opposed to being in the Colossus/Thing range.

 

For lack of a better term, we would need a Normal STR vs MegaSTR type difference. MegaSTR could have other advantages associated with it beyond just Lift. Might affect Leaping or Knockback distances too...

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

First of all, Normal Characteristic Maxima was a mistake. More on that later.

 

 

Also the argument against change is pretty persuasive to me: normal attacks do not cost more than 5 points per 1d6, and strength cost increase would mean that changes

 

It would? Why?

 

AND, assuming we use active point caps, you wouldn't be able to get a strength above 35 in a 60 AP game. That's the difference between just being able to lift a truck and being able to throw a subway car 24 metres. A toolkit system as Hero has become needs to be able to model the sorts of strength we often see in comics: way over 35 in many cases.

 

In which case I think it’s pretty blatantly obvious that the problem is the hard AP cap…

 

To sweep, then: Strength would just be another power, granting you the ability to exert force to lift, squeeze, push. In other words 'slow strength'. It is not much use for punching or throwing - we need a different ability for that, and it comes in the form of 'fast strength'. That works just like any other normal damaging power, enabling you to damage in HtH, by punching, kicking or throwing an object.

 

Together, fast strength and slow strength do everything that strength does now, but they are technically seperate abilities, so even though the overall cost is higher, active points are not an issue. One should almost always be linked to the other (the smaller tot he larger) as draining one almost always drains the other, for example. Each form of strength costs 1 point for 1 point. You start with a base 10 as usual. You can stick them in frameworks freely. You do not get any figured characteristics or bonus leaping.

 

Anyway, that's what I think.

 

An interesting proposal. In other words, split it into two separate characteristics.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with this.

 

Before I go any further, disclosure: I haven't read beyond the first post in the thread. I apologize if I cover ground someone has already been over.

 

There's a great reason for raising the cost that has nothing to do with the amount of Figured Characteristics you get. Specifically, Normal vs. Killing damage.

 

1d6 of RKA is 15 points; 1d6 of HKA is also 15 points. The differences between the two are that one is ranged and the other lets you add your base STR damage. This has been used to derive a hypothetical "STR Adds" Advantage for +1/2, the same cost as Usable At Range. Ignoring that, one Damage Class of Killing Attack, whether Hand-to-hand or Ranged, costs 5 points.

 

One Damage Class of ranged, Normal damage (aka Energy Blast) also costs 5 points. However, one Damage Class of Hand-to-hand, Normal damage, to which Strength adds (aka Hand-to-hand Attack) has an arbitrary free -1/2 Limitation applied to it, in order to give it an Active Cost of 5 points per d6 and a Real Cost of 3 points per d6. It's an anomaly, ranking up there with the handwaving required to turn Healing into Regeneration by the book. The rationale for doing it this way is that you're effectively buying 5 STR, Only For Attack, somewhat arbitrarily priced at -1/2. If you make STR 2 points per point, this arbitrary pricing falls away, and you can make Hand-to-hand Normal damage cost 5 points per Damage Class and having it balance correctly with the other damage-causing Powers.

 

I'm of the opinion that STR should cost 2 points per point by default, with an option for making it 1 point per point for superheroic campaigns (or at GM's option).

 

The problem with this thinking is that Normal Attacks are already not balanced against Killing Attacks.

 

What we need is to extend the mandatory limitation to Energy Blast as well, not remove it from Hand to Hand attack. And possibly make it a bigger limitation even.

 

Which demonstrates that nothing in Hero can be discussed in isolation from everything else….

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary promises to remind me to come back and talk about Normal Characteristics

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

But only after you have put on No figured' date=' which changes the usefulnes of str considerably[/quote']

 

No argument there :)

 

Nonetheless, I'd have to argue that, if you were building from scratch, a power that allowed you to do 1d6 damage, lift, throw and manipulate objects, exert specific force, carry objects, and had elements of indirect would probably be worth more than 5 points. Even without figured characteristics, I feel STR is worth more than 1point/point.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

I think 2: 1 would be ok, but would needs to have some other system changes added along with it, such as how Lift is calculated.

 

Otherwise your starting level brick in your 60Ap/12DC supers game is limited to the Spider-man/Beast range of lifting, as opposed to being in the Colossus/Thing range.

 

This stems from the problem that STR isn't REALLY a Power/Characteristic, it's an SFX. Or should be, rather. Currently, STR represents (at least) two Powers, including (at least) one that doesn't currently exist. Buying STR gives you Lifting and HA, apart from the Figureds. There's no reason why Lifting and HA should be, mechanically, tied. In fact, you can already buy one without the other (HA). The "oops, my Brick can't lift as much as he should be able to, cuz then he'd break the attack power AP/DC cap" problem shouldn't exist. It's like saying Energy Projectors are limited in how much Force Field (or Flight, or some other aribitrary Power) they can take before breaking the AP/DC cap with their Energy Blast. I'd say get rid of the HA component in STR, and have all characters start with 2d6 HA "for free". Have HA cost 5 per d6. Use HA instead of STR to add to weapons, maybe? And you can certainly sell back your HA, so that your STR 5 old lady can do 1d6 punches, as is appropriate. =)

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Okay, for proper balancing purposes Strength should cost 2:1. This will make it less likely your Hero Game will have 18 Strength Mentalists and Energy Projectors, a much more common and harder to adjudicate problem than high strength Bricks.

 

That is a desirable outcome, IMO.

 

But also it makes Bricks much harder to play and keep in balance, which is Undesirable.

 

So after Str 25 is reached, Strength should go back down to 1:1. This helps somewhat. If Strength goes down even further past Strength 40 to 1/2:1 then everything balances back out at the high end. And hardly adds any bookkeeping.

 

In fact, I'd suggest we have varied and confusing costs for all characteristics. That we have a bunch of seemingly arbitrary costs which somehow contrive to make a balanced game.

 

What's that? Lalallalalalalalal..... I'm not listening.:D

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

What's that? Lalallalalalalalal..... I'm not listening.:D

 

You can start listening again. I'm about to propose something to SIMPLIFY the game.

 

Most of this I have already posted elsewhere; it's just easier to recopy it than to write a whole new essay on the subject.

 

This is an opinion I came to slowly, but I have seen the whole concept of Normal Characteristic Maxima generate so much controversy, that I am of the opinion that it is an idea the game can do without. It simply does not do what it was designed to do, and merely adds needless complication to the game. It should be a guideline only, and up to each Game Operations Director to set limits on the characteristics of characters. Not "it costs double past this point," a mechanic used nowhere else in the game to restrict skills, powers, or anything else, but a hard limit - "no, you cannot play a 'normal Human' with a STR of 24!"

 

What it does is create yet another artificial breakpoint in a game that already has too many of them, and results in every warrior taking a STR of 20.

 

It does not, in and of itself, prevent anyone from taking an unreasonable or unrealistic characteristic.

 

Say I am creating a pair of flower-selling monks in a heroic game with 75 base points and up to 75 disadvantages. Brother Rose has a Dex of 20 (costs 30) and spends 50 pts on SPD (10 pts ups it to 4, the "Max," and another 40 ups it to 6.) That costs 80 pts, and if he sells off 3" Running for -6 pts he still has a ground speed half again a normal Human's, and has all his points from Disads to pay for botany, flower arranging, and what the heck, he'll study some canon law too. His sidekick Brother Orchid has a STR of 40 costing 50 pts, and uses some disad points to buy his flowery skills, and still comes in as a "weaker than character" DNPC.

 

Now, is any sane Game Operations Director going to permit this pair? No, they will probably change their names to Brother Ragweed and Brother Crabgrass and tell the player to toss them on the compost pile. But that is exactly what they would have had to do if there WERE no "Normal Characteristic Maxima," except that the outrageous characteristics would have been an 8 SPD and a 60 STR.

 

The message to G.O.D.'s is - You, and only you, can prevent florist friars. The Characteristic Maxima rule can't do it for you. And if it doesn't, what good is it?

 

It accomplishes nothing that could not be better and more simply done without it.

 

At the risk of repeating myself - eliminating the Normal Characteristic Max rule will streamline and simplify the rules, make them fairer, and takes absolutely ZIP from the game. YOU DON'T LOSE ANYTHING. Where you set the limit and how you enforce it becomes just like the campaign limit on active points - you either say "That's the limit, that's it" or "That's the limit, exceptions judged on a case by case basis."

 

If it were such a good idea, why wouldn't it be applied to everything else? The active points limit, the damage class limit, the defenses limit; all these are

A. Set campaign by campaign, game by game, by the person running the game; not arbitrarily set at a certain point that's assumed to be good for everyone.

B. Never exceeded by something as simple as "just pay double points."

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Markdoc

"the idea that NCM applies with the same levels to pixies and ogres, but not to horses, elephants and palindromedaries is, well, just silly"

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

God no :) Some more nice genre books would be welcome' date=' but The Ultimate line used to be one or two steps away from the d20 Complete books but my understanding is the UEP has begun to seriously blur the line.[/quote']

 

The Ultimate Series aren't Genre Specific, so using them as examples of "genre books" is bad - that's not their intended use at all. All of Hero's Genre Books themselves are excellent resources.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

The Ultimate Series aren't Genre Specific' date=' so using them as examples of "genre books" is bad - that's not their intended use at all. All of Hero's Genre Books themselves are excellent resources.[/quote']

 

I may have phrased that poorly. What I was aiming at was I love the Hero Genre books, I hold them easily in as high esteem as I do the old GURPS source books (Which were a: Rules Moderate and b: Very complete and well researched). But ...

 

I found the Ultimate Books largely pointless for me but saw how they could be a valuable resource for others; However everything I keep hearing about UEP is disconcerting. Namely that it introduces a new rules set rather than being a discussion of how to use the existing rules. This seems completely contrary to what I percieved as one of the Hero system's greatest strengths; Namely the universality of the basic rules. It also feels a bit like it's heading down the road of the d20 Complete books (Wanna play an effective figher gotta have The Complete Warrior, wanna play an effective Energy Projector gotta have UEP).

 

Mildly frustrating is that I'm probably going to buy UEP, to either allay or confirm my concerns. I never really begrudge buying Hero products, plus when people whose opinions I find generally well reasoned and well phrased (I'm just ghonna say respect) tell me something's the best hand's down, how can I not check it out.

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

Speaking of HA' date=' does anyone besides me think that it was fine in 4E at being priced at 1d6 Normal Damage per 3 Base Points? Admittedly it can be confusing if your campaign uses Active Point caps, but Damage Class caps handle it fine.[/quote']

 

That works fine until people start buying NND HAs - or other advantaged HAs - at which point it breaks down entirely. It also doesn't play well with damage caps. Lemmesee: 60 AP - that's a 12d6 EB or a 20d6 HA.... And that's obviously not a rare event: it was precisely for that reason we got the current kludgy construction of "it costs 3 points, but it's actually 5". The mere fact that we have to have such a kludge is a dead giveaway the current pricing structure is wrong, IMO.

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: The Cost of STR & Other Characteristics: An open discussion

 

And in answer to the original post, yeah, STR is underpriced. I've been in the 2:1 camp for nearly 20 years now (as both a player - occasionally - and as a GM - almost always) and my response is: it's sweet.

 

I matched this change by making HA 5 points per d6, with the rationale that the limitation "only with attack" is a -1 limit on STR (it works out the same more or less, as No Figured Cha, no extra leaping and a little extra for "no lifting, grabbing or breakout"). In that setup HA exists as a simple power (because it's convenient, and for AP calculations) but it functions the same (and costs more or less the same) as modified STR. The already implicit +1/2 for "can add STR" or "Usable at range" now falls neatly into line, with STR, HA, HKA, RKA, EB and TK all co-existing in equal point harmony with each other.

 

For heroic games, even at 2:1, most characters buy at least a few points of STR, because the utility is simply so great. In even in games where Guns are the prime means of dealing damage, STR is still vastly useful because a) most guns have STR Min and B) at some point you're going to want to whack someone with a katana anyway. Trust me on that :D. For Fantasy, it's a no-brainer. In my current FH game starting with 100 points PCs and NCM, we have one character with a 23 STR (his shtick is "the strongman") - he started with 20.

 

So it's clearly not overpriced, if we have players buying it up over NCM. And I've got 20 years of FH experience that says with STR at 2:1, you'll still get plenty of PCs with 18 or 20 STR, so it ain't too expensive. The only difference is that not everyone will have 18 or 20 STR. In short, that suggests that the price is about right....

 

Even for Supers, it has not been a dealbreaker: characters who rely entirely on Raw STR become less common (but by no means rare) and it simply become commoner to get Bricks with limited STR - no Figured Char, still get gets you leaping, lifting, grabbing and breakout on top of basic HTH damage. HA becomes pretty common (and no longer kludgy) and STR power frameworks (to accommodate extra lift, HA, brick tricks etc) now exactly parallel the energy blaster's power frameworks.

 

Cheers, Mark

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