Invisibility

[Vestnik]

Does anybody else think Invisibility may be underpriced? 20 points and you're Mr. Slink Around, Attack from Surprise, Escape Unnoticed, Spy in the Girls' Gym Man. +3 points and they can't hear you while you're doing it. Doesn't this seem a bit low as costs go?

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Invisibility

 

Does anybody else think Invisibility may be underpriced? 20 points and you're Mr. Slink Around' date=' Attack from Surprise, Escape Unnoticed, Spy in the Girls' Gym Man. +3 points and they can't hear you while you're doing it. Doesn't this seem a bit low as costs go?[/quote']

 

The short answer is: yes. Add ten points (I think) and there goes the fringe as well. The advantages you get in combat alone (DCV/OCV) are easily worth the 20 points.

[Vestnik]

Re: Invisibility

 

Right. It's the advantages you get in combat, PLUS the noncombat advantages, which are probably even better.

 

I just built a Martial Artist with Invisibility. I am almost afraid he (she actually) is going to whup just _too much ass_ unless fighting somebody with a non-sight-based targeting sense. For a mere 20 points.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility

 

Right. It's the advantages you get in combat, PLUS the noncombat advantages, which are probably even better.

 

I just built a Martial Artist with Invisibility. I am almost afraid he (she actually) is going to whup just _too much ass_ unless fighting somebody with a non-sight-based targeting sense. For a mere 20 points.

 

Well, the cost also goes to how many points do you have available? Is it cheap? Yep. Do you still need to be able to do "other stuff" to really make it pay off? Yep. Do I allow it in my games? Within reason, as both a spell (Invis, Group Invis) and a super skill (Hide in Shadows). I think as with all things there's a level of GM control, but you know. Give it a shot and see what happens. If he kicks too much ass, he'll find himself in a bakery when a giant bag of flour explodes on him.

[Vestnik]

Re: Invisibility

 

Well' date=' the cost also goes to how many points do you have available? Is it cheap? Yep. Do you still need to be able to do "other stuff" to really make it pay off? Yep. Do I allow it in my games? Within reason, as both a spell (Invis, Group Invis) and a super skill (Hide in Shadows). I think as with all things there's a level of GM control, but you know. Give it a shot and see what happens. If he kicks too much ass, he'll find himself in a bakery when a giant bag of flour explodes on him. [/quote']

 

She's also got Desolidification. The flour will go right through.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Invisibility

 

She's also got Desolidification. The flour will go right through.

 

Inviso plus desolid????????? I allowed that once. It was the worst game ever. Talk about a character completely taking over......*shudders*

[Vestnik]

Re: Invisibility

 

It's Desolidification that doesn't protect against attacks, if that helps... (it's a "pass through walls" power.) It also takes a full phase to activate (as does the Inviso), slightly limiting its versatility in combat.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility

 

Bear in mind that it is relatively cheap to buy enhanced senses that can overcome invisibility easily. In a low powered campaign where no one has the points to spend on such fripperies, it is very effective. In a high powered campaign where everyone has some sort of unusual targeting sense it is virtually useless.

 

The problem is that invisibility does not scale, and all powers that do not scale have the same common problem - the cost/utility varies enormously depending on game environment and campaign rules.

 

Also, one approach to Invisibility being too effective is making sure you apply all the rules strictly - non targeting PER rolls, for example, or just have clever PCs/NPCs use environment. When I played DnD someone was always carrying a bag of flour or chalk, or a pot of ink, just in case we met an invisible opponent.

[Kdansky]

Re: Invisibility

 

Yeah, we had invis in a low powered 75/75 (fourth ED) campaign once, and it dominated. Lucky me, I was the one who picked it up It was our first Hero game, so we came to the same conclusion. It's not *that* bad and can be held in check by the GM easily. But it's still cheap and powerful.

[Vestnik]

Re: Invisibility

 

While we're at it, the character also has the following power:

 

4d6 EGO and PRE Drain, Two Characteristics Simultaneously (+1/2), Points Return at the Rate of 5 Per Minute (+1/4) (70 Active Points) (and then a whole bunch of limitations I'm not going to get into)

 

Do you think this is too effective? I've never used a character with such a power construction before.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility

 

Thank good ness they did not buy IPE on that, or it would be

[Vestnik]

Re: Invisibility

 

It's limited with "Must Follow Grab" and "Delayed Phase," so she has to actually do some work to get into position to use it. With the Invisibility, though... (Laughs maniacally.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility

 

It's limited with "Must Follow Grab" and "Delayed Phase' date='" so she has to actually do some work to get into position to use it. With the Invisibility, though... (Laughs maniacally.)[/quote']

 

...but the attack is visible, so the opponent knows where you are and can target you. Grab, then do the delayed phase attack is maybe 3 phases on which they could hit you.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility

 

It's Desolidification that doesn't protect against attacks' date=' if that helps... (it's a "pass through walls" power.) It also takes a full phase to activate (as does the Inviso), slightly limiting its versatility in combat.[/quote']

 

Desol isn't a total gamebreaker, but it comes close. However, it depends on the build and the limitations on the power. If you can't affect real world then you have to walk up behind someone, drop desol, then whack 'em. That I'd be unlikely to allow. I've allowed Desol as I said, but it was extremely constrained. Chris' character in my sci-fi campaign had desolid, only vs. ranged attacks, special effect: Genetically Lucky as all Hell. It worked just fine, although it took a while for me to wrap my skull around it.

[Comic]

Re: Invisibility

 

Comparing 20 AP of Invisibility to 20 AP of Dex, the latter's extra CV, SPD, bonus to Stealth and Acrobatics rolls -- all at costs no END -- is easily superior.

 

Comparing 30 AP of Invisibility at 0 END to 30 AP of Dex, hand's down Dex wins.

 

So.. no.

 

And this isn't an outlier.

 

20 AP of extra movement (like teleport) is similarly more advantageous.

 

20 AP of extra DEF, likewise more advantageous.

 

20 AP of Stretching, Shrinking or skills, also comparable.

 

And Invisibility has a wide range of easily available defenses (senses), so, I don't see where this issue is coming from.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility

 

I can see where the concern about invisibility comes from (I had to buy an enhanced sense, but I can see it) however, I think it has enough constraints in practice to not make it insurmountable.

 

However, we've just been focussing on combat, really.

 

In an espionage game it really could be a killer.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility

 

I can see where the concern about invisibility comes from (I had to buy an enhanced sense, but I can see it) however, I think it has enough constraints in practice to not make it insurmountable.

 

However, we've just been focussing on combat, really.

 

In an espionage game it really could be a killer.

 

It's true, environment changes everything.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

Yes. Flat cost abilities are not great in an open-ended game system like the HERO System. After a certain threshold is reached, it becomes stupid to _not_ have some abilities, with only concept standing in the way against.

 

 

Invisibility and Desolid both suffer from this; Damage Reduction does as well though to a much lesser degree (and is also self-correcting due to its %ile basis). In many high powered supers and high fantasy campaigns it sometimes seems like characters that dont have one or both are the exception. The GM needs to be firm on enforcing concept to prevent it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Invisibility

 

A character I just retired has Invisibility. For a long time it was their only ability. But it was bought to an insane level.

 

Ghost: Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Radio, Smell/Taste and Mystic Groups, Danger Sense, Combat Sense, Detect Dimensional Effects, Spatial Awareness, Detect Humans, Detect Livings Things, Detect Mutants, Detect Soul, Detect Lifeforce, Detect Aura and Detect Demons , No Fringe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (127 Active Points)

The Chosen One From A Thousand Years Hence: Invisibility to Mental Group , No Fringe, Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (45 Active Points); Always On (-1/2)

 

The inability to buy to Detect or Unusual Group as a whole does make it moderately scalable. It was by no means a game breaker, but it did force things out of the standard mold. Tack on an IPE Naked Advantage and you become a very dangerous sniper.

 

But a game is an entire environment, and what looks super scary on paper can become less so when context arrives.

[The Monster]

Re: Invisibility

 

In my Champions game, I've got one "ghost" PC: invisible, desolid, and primary attack is TK Affects Real World, Fine Manipulation, using martial arts maneuvers.

 

Had I the chance to start the campaign over, I'd probably disallow the character, or at least demand some serious limitations and reductions.

 

The problem I have with the Invisible/Desolid combo is that it's too binary - either it is totally invulnerable & undetectable, or the opponents have the perfect counter (i.e., just the right enhanced sense and Affects Desolid). There's no sense of uncertainty, no risk versus reward; it either works (and therefore kicks total butte-oxen) or it doesn't (and the character is crippled). So, as GM, I have to choose whether or not to allow that character a free romp for an adventure, or to deliberately build baddies to screw him - and neither option exactly gives me great joy (my other option is a mentalist, but I ran a powerful mentalist in one of the first adventures, and some of the players still haven't stopped gritching about that one).

 

And, of course, the Affects Real World attack means that, unless the character is in a "yer skrood" situation, he just tosses baddies around pretty much willy-nilly.

 

I know, this is pretty much an "inexperienced Champions GM" whine/rant (I've run Hero for decades, but almost never Champions); but it's an illustration of how easy it is to get stuck in a corner over these powers.

[Kdansky]

Re: Invisibility

 

You know, you can (and probably should) still do that: Go to the player and tell him: "Look, your character is unbalancing the campaign and very annoying and/or difficult to manage for me as a GM. Can we work out some changes?" Just because you made a mistake by allowing something does not mean you cannot come to a different conclusion after seeing it in action.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Invisibility

 

I would never take Invis.+Desiol. for a Character. It is just way to binary.

[Radar]

Re: Invisibility

 

I got lucky with one of my players, as he decided that he could only stay invisible or intangible for up to three phases without triggering an Enraged disadvantage (some experimental gland piggybacked onto his brain, which was only designed to give him inviso, but also gave him desolid, unknown to his handlers). Keeps him from becoming a pain in the game, and opens up more roleplaying possibilities.

[Comic]

Re: Invisibility

 

If I had an invisible/desolid character in a campaign, you can be sure that at least one villain in five has some way to overcome this defense; that the player will know this before character creation has finished; that the player will be encouraged to have other tricks and tools to prevent getting totally mashed into a pancake.

 

And unless I've got an extremely strong campaign reason, any villain with a binary defense (Force Wall, Force Field, Missile Deflection, DEF with Activation) is going to be built so the hero isn't going to be able to kill them with one random lucky shot.

 

And I wouldn't have any qualms about the villains -- smart people who know when the game's not rigged in their own favor -- equipping with the means to defeat the hero's schtick over time. That's part of the nature of the game.

[Vestnik]

Re: Invisibility

 

Well if it helps this character's Desolid is "Does Not Protect Against Damage."