Bow & Arrows separately.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

One quibble, which is the reason I went to bizzarre lengths before: The way this is built, every time you hit someone with an arrow you lose that arrow until it is recovered. You should be able to keep the arrow in hand until you use it as a ranged attack, it breaks, or someone takes it away from you. As you didn't want to hand-waive the possibility of using the arrow as a hand weapon, I didn't think you'd want to hand-waive that, either.

 

As for the bow, shouldn't it be able to be used as a club if you have no arrows?

 

Or you accept the minor handwave that I'm "recovering" it when I rip it out of your lithe, supple flesh. Agreed, this build is still only ferpect, but that's why I posted it. They are most assuredly charges; it could be modeled as "charge only expended once fired/thrown." I think the same argument could be said for a brace of throwing daggers; no one debates the dagger can be thrown & recovered, but it isn't built on Charges, either. So I see this as falling more to the purview of common & dramatic sense, rather than a hard & fast game mechanic.

[GamePhil]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Or you accept the minor handwave that I'm "recovering" it when I rip it out of your lithe' date=' supple flesh. Agreed, this build is still only ferpect, but that's why I posted it. They are most assuredly charges; it could be modeled as "charge only expended once fired/thrown." I think the same argument could be said for a brace of throwing daggers; no one debates the dagger can be thrown & recovered, but it isn't built on Charges, either. So I see this as falling more to the purview of common & dramatic sense, rather than a hard & fast game mechanic.[/quote']

 

Like I said, it's a quibble. I only went on to mention the whole handwaiving thing because even I was vaguely embarassed to bring it up, and I'm normally quite happy to delve into all kinds of probably worthless detail. But you gotta draw the line at whatever point you feel comfortable.

[GamePhil]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Actually,there's an option in the Focus rules which allows a power to require two foci or it operates at half strength,but the value of the Focus limitation is reduced by 1/4.

Sample Bows & Arrows:1d6+1HKA,Range based on Strength(+1/4),Reduced Endurance(0END)(+1/2)(35Active Points)(OAF-Bows &Arrows(2foci)(-3/4)(20 Real Points).

 

Yeah, but he wanted to be able to stab people with the arrows if he didn't have the bow. And like that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Or I add "Can Be Thrown" to the arrows to represent they're launchable. Then make the arrows 1/2d6 (2 DCs) and then apply any advantages, and the bow then adds Base Damage (which I specified, go me) so there's no confusion, so the doubling rules then apply to the sum total. No change on the user. Massive headache alleviation on MY side. What do you think, Phil? Will adding "Can Be Throw" (i.e., launched) fix it?

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

why do you have your version adding +1d6 HKA? especially when it doesn't get STR bonus. this seems way more complicated than just letting the STR add to it and making it with (ranged)STR or TK. is it to get around the doubling problem?

 

let me get straight what you wanted to accomplish here:

1) seperate bows and arrows

2) have the bow only add range and damage, in otherwords, the bow becomes the arrow-chucker

3) have the arrow be the base damage, preferably a HKA so it can be used to stab things HtH, but have nothing to do with range or anything else that should come from the bow.

 

to me, it seems your build accomplishes this, but is very clumsy in doing so. but maybe i am misunderstanding the reason you want to do this, or the basic tennets of the exercise.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

you mean RBS? thats what i take "Can Be Thrown" to mean....

 

and again, i think this is stealing from Peter to pay Paul....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

you mean RBS? thats what i take "Can Be Thrown" to mean....

 

and again, i think this is stealing from Peter to pay Paul....

 

Nope, RBS is "ranged based on STR." "Can be Thrown" is listed in Fantasy HERO as some weapons, well... can be thrown. In this case, "fired," instead of thrown. Same principal.

 

As to why I haven't used STR, by RAW I can still only double the base damage on a weapon; so the 'arrows' can only be made up to 2x their base DC. The premise behind the bow is exactly what it looks like;

 

1) It adds Range to the HKA, and

2) it adds "base damage" to the arrows based on its weight.

 

It only 'looks' clumsy in that sense. Is it the most elegant thing I've ever built? No. Do I still want put some spit & polish and on it? Yes. But is it still generally right? You betcha. Does exactly what it should; adds range, and adds damage.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

"Can Be Thrown" i believe is actually built using RBS. i think the can be thrown thing is just in the tables. i've been building ASS-LOADS of weapons for FH lately, so i'm fairly sure (although that doesn't actually mean i'm right, i'm not usually).

 

and the +1d6 is just to bump the arrow damage up?

 

hmmm....i dunno. just seems out of whack to me, but you're right in that it accomplishes what you want without the handwave of the doubling rule....

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

yea, check 165 in FH in the key to the table

 

it says that weapons marked "Can Be Thrown" are built with the RBS (+1/4) advantage

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Sure, which is fine; but the "range" in this case isn't RBS, it's an NPA attached to the bow itself. I think you're hanging on specifics and not the essence of the mechanics and common sense. Besides, it's an NPA; I wouldn't even have to maintain that it can be launched, so long as the bow fires arrows and I call the thing an arrow. I'm just working on the polish, like I said. Interesting point, though.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

i was talking about the making the arrows "throwable" by non-bows thing. i may tinker with it some more, but i probably won't

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

i was talking about the making the arrows "throwable" by non-bows thing. i may tinker with it some more' date=' but i probably won't[/quote']

 

AH. Well, technically, no they aren't, and realistically, no they really aren't; they aren't weighted well to be 'thrown' by much of anyone, although you could certainly make the argument. I'm still trying to figure out if I built the thing right as-is.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

it does what you want, and looks good. i don't see any glaring holes in it. and its all rules legal, which is cool. i think its done, personally.

[Alibear]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

For me, you're making something needlessly complicated for little return.

 

Still, ordinarily arrows are not throwable, we use bows to increase our throwing range and Strength, right?

 

But....what if someone was really strong, could they then throw arrows, basically cutting out the need of a bow?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

For me, you're making something needlessly complicated for little return.

 

Still, ordinarily arrows are not throwable, we use bows to increase our throwing range and Strength, right?

 

But....what if someone was really strong, could they then throw arrows, basically cutting out the need of a bow?

 

Well that question would apply both to conventional bows (as the current RKA/Charges build) and this one. I would say that for common/dramatic purposes being able to hurl and arrow once would be fine, but after doing it two or three times, I'd make you buy an NPA: Ranged.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

For me, you're making something needlessly complicated for little return.

 

Still, ordinarily arrows are not throwable, we use bows to increase our throwing range and Strength, right?

 

But....what if someone was really strong, could they then throw arrows, basically cutting out the need of a bow?

 

Technically they'd need to be really fast, not really strong.

 

OK, not helpful, I'm outa here...

[Tonio]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Technically they'd need to be really fast, not really strong.

 

OK, not helpful, I'm outa here...

 

Which is why we need Slow STR (for lifting, etc.) and Quick/Explosive STR (for hitting, throwing arrows, etc.) instead of just one STR. This would also help mitigate --

 

Eep, wrong thread. Sowee!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Which is why we need Slow STR (for lifting, etc.) and Quick/Explosive STR (for hitting, throwing arrows, etc.) instead of just one STR. This would also help mitigate --

 

Eep, wrong thread. Sowee!

 

You are forgiven. What an excellent idea, though. Tell me more?

[Tonio]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

You are forgiven. What an excellent idea' date=' though. Tell me more? [/quote']

 

I would, except that'd be an unforgivable thread-hijack. And the other thread has grown too big for my taste. =/

 

But yeah, I agree with you on how STR should be split and all. In fact, I dislike the whole STR-as-a-stat thing. I feel STR should be an SFX, not a Power.

 

And that's all I have to say about that. (Sorry!)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

I would, except that'd be an unforgivable thread-hijack. And the other thread has grown too big for my taste. =/

 

But yeah, I agree with you on how STR should be split and all. In fact, I dislike the whole STR-as-a-stat thing. I feel STR should be an SFX, not a Power.

 

And that's all I have to say about that. (Sorry!)

 

Just blowing my own trumpet (cf Heroic Equipment thread )

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Just blowing my own trumpet (cf Heroic Equipment thread )

 

OH. Is that what you meant? That makes more sense then. Although I submit that you could use either for a bow, depending on circumstances.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

SO. Here we are then. A bow:

Heavy Longbow: (Total: 47 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Ranged (+1/2) for up to 45 Active Points of Arrows & Bolts (22 Active Points); OAF (-1), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only for Arrows; -1), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 7) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (25 Active Points); STR Minimum 17 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1 1/4), OAF (-1), Only to add to Base Damage of Arrow Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Another bow:

Concealable Short Bow: (Total: 24 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Ranged (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of Arrows & Bolts (15 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only for Arrows; -1), IAF (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 5) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point (5 Active Points); STR Minimum 12 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Only to add to Base Damage of Arrow Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1), IAF (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Bow must be drawn & strung; -1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +2 with Concealment (4 Active Points); Self Only (Only for hiding weapon on your person, etc.; -1/2) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Some arrows:

 

Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4) (12 Active Points); STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2), No STR Bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Armor Piercing Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (17 Active Points); STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2), No STR Bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Penetrating Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2) (17 Active Points); STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2), No STR Bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Heavy Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (30 Active Points); STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2), No STR Bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

No STR bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow) means that if you stab someone with it, your STR bonus WILL apply. They'll make good piercing daggers in a pinch, oddly enough. And as noted, they are recoverable. But this solves MY problem. I can now enchant either/or with equal ease. Making a bow concealable has no direct impact on the rest of the design. I'll likely muddle my way through firearms next.

 

For those who don't get why Thia has bent his energies to this task: I'm okay with that. This is a largely Heroic problem that requires a specific solution for my campaign and needs. But hopefully some of you can look at it and see that in the long run (now that the painful, design bit is out of the way) this is simpler and more efficient. Different arrows are now correctly costed and can be dropped into resource pools (or purchased, what have you) appropriately. Bows can now be enchanted exactly as you want them without necessarily affecting the arrows themselves, etc. & so forth. That was the point of the exercise.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

As a total aside:

 

It also means that for those Dark Champions cats, you can now cost out ammunition exactly as you like using the same core principals. The gun "throws" the bullets (adding NPA range to a No-Range RKA for the rounds themselves) and your ammunition now carries almost all of the damage. Meaning that the gun itself is, for the most part, doing zip in the damage department. It just enables the rounds to deal damage. Of course, better made firearms could easily add damage and such. But it might look a little like this:

 

Desert Eagle .50: (Total: 20 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Ranged (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of .50 Caliber DE Rounds (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only for Desert Eagle ammunition Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1), 2 clips of 7 Charges (Standard 7 Round Clip; -1/2), Beam Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus +1 with Ranged Combat (5 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Desert Eagle Ammunition: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (30 Active Points); STR Minimum 13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), 7 Charges (Seven Round Clipload; -3/4), OIF (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Pistols are trickier in HD simply because of where it'll let me put certain limitations; it doesn't count the NPA as a valid construction for the weapon, so it gets snarky as to what can be assigned where. Overall, though, this is closer to what I'll be using in my own settings from here on it.

 

Firearms are going to take a little more work, but the idea is the same. In this case, the gun does no damage at all; it just adds range to the round. I wonder if I should custom lim the round; "Must be Fired, -1/4" which I think was my original plan, in fact. RKA or No STR HKA? Hrm.

[caris]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

SO. Here we are then. A bow:

Heavy Longbow: (Total: 47 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Ranged (+1/2) for up to 45 Active Points of Arrows & Bolts (22 Active Points); OAF (-1), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only for Arrows; -1), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 7) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (25 Active Points); STR Minimum 17 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1 1/4), OAF (-1), Only to add to Base Damage of Arrow Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Another bow:

Concealable Short Bow: (Total: 24 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Ranged (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of Arrows & Bolts (15 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only for Arrows; -1), IAF (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 5) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point (5 Active Points); STR Minimum 12 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Only to add to Base Damage of Arrow Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1), IAF (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Bow must be drawn & strung; -1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +2 with Concealment (4 Active Points); Self Only (Only for hiding weapon on your person, etc.; -1/2) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Some arrows:

 

Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4) (12 Active Points); STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2), No STR Bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Armor Piercing Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (17 Active Points); STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2), No STR Bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Penetrating Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2) (17 Active Points); STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2), No STR Bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

Heavy Arrows: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (30 Active Points); STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2), No STR Bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

No STR bonus (Only When Fired from a Bow) means that if you stab someone with it, your STR bonus WILL apply. They'll make good piercing daggers in a pinch, oddly enough. And as noted, they are recoverable. But this solves MY problem. I can now enchant either/or with equal ease. Making a bow concealable has no direct impact on the rest of the design. I'll likely muddle my way through firearms next.

 

For those who don't get why Thia has bent his energies to this task: I'm okay with that. This is a largely Heroic problem that requires a specific solution for my campaign and needs. But hopefully some of you can look at it and see that in the long run (now that the painful, design bit is out of the way) this is simpler and more efficient. Different arrows are now correctly costed and can be dropped into resource pools (or purchased, what have you) appropriately. Bows can now be enchanted exactly as you want them without necessarily affecting the arrows themselves, etc. & so forth. That was the point of the exercise.

 

A couple of quibbles, sorry. Shouldn't the added damage from the bows have Reduced Endurance: 0 END, and because of some of the advantages on the arrows shouldn't the arrow builds include enough of an NPA version of those advantages to cover the added damage from the bow?

 

Edit: btw - your mother said to wash behind your ears and eat more vegetables.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

A couple of quibbles, sorry. Shouldn't the added damage from the bows have Reduced Endurance: 0 END, and because of some of the advantages on the arrows shouldn't the arrow builds include enough of an NPA version of those advantages to cover the added damage from the bow?

 

Edit: btw - your mother said to wash behind your ears and eat more vegetables.

 

Actually, no. Not because you're wrong, per se, but for my purposes it makes more sense to expend the END required by the weapon; normally a bow uses just charges, which means it costs no END by default (they aren't built with 0 END, because they in fact use Charges). But with the Arrow being on Charges, there's no END to fire the arrow; the end is spent in the pulling of the bow.

 

Which means, of course, that bows with less Pull will cost less END. That's not a bug, it's a feature. Normally you'd spend your STR to swing a sword, and the sword has 0 END. But your STR doesn't matter to the pull of the bow beyond having the strength minima required to pull it.

 

And, as far as the NPA bit for the Advantages, I hadn't thought of it that way -- let me do a couple of quick builds, but my understanding is that, as in the Talent Deadly Blow, if you add Deadly Blow to something, the weapon remains Armor Piercing (frex) regardless of the number of dice you've added in. Which is why I didn't do it that way. We'd go into a big circle; you add STR damage, the weapon is still Armor Piercing.