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Bow & Arrows separately.


Thia Halmades

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Oh, ick. No, I don't like this at all.

 

NPA Armor Piercing Arrow: (Total: 37 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 45 Active Points of Bow Damage, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4) (27 Active Points); OAF (-1) (Real Cost: 13) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

I think it's what you were talking about, but making it an NPA limits the kinds of disads I can slap on it. Nah, I'm content to let the arrow (and all associated damage) be Armor Piercing. It is totally legal, and there's plenty of precedent for it.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Oh, ick. No, I don't like this at all.

 

NPA Armor Piercing Arrow: (Total: 37 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 45 Active Points of Bow Damage, 12 Recoverable Charges (+1/4) (27 Active Points); OAF (-1) (Real Cost: 13) plus Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 4 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

I think it's what you were talking about, but making it an NPA limits the kinds of disads I can slap on it. Nah, I'm content to let the arrow (and all associated damage) be Armor Piercing. It is totally legal, and there's plenty of precedent for it.

 

You have a bow that can add up to 3D6 Killing to an arrow?!?!?!?!

 

PS: Was informed that if I attempt to contact your mother again that I'll get a holy sunburn.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

I realise that I am coming to this very late in the day but I have a thought that you might want to consider.

 

How about buying the bow as a the main power?

 

Heavy bow: 2D6 RKA, real weapon, OAF (Bow and arrows)

 

Now when you have a heavy bow and arrows then you can do 2D6 RKAs.

 

You can change the damage a bow does simply by defining the damage that you wish arrows fired by the bow to do. This means that any arrow you pick up will do the same damage from the bow.

 

Now you consider arrows. An arrow that does 2D6 RKA when fired from a heavy bow is probably only worth 1/2D6 when used as a dagger. So you might build an arrow as 1/2D6 HKA, real weapon, independent. This doesn't matter when it is fired from the bow but you are firing a focus that may provide your enemies with a weapon when it gets there.

 

So what about armour piercing arrows. I think these could be built as multipowers: slot 1 - HKA as before, slot 2 - NPA (AP) bought for the heaviest bow they could be fired from. They could also be bought as two powers - more expensive than normal arrows but so they should be.

 

You could also build arrows that added to the damage of the bow.

 

No handwavium required anywhere and good compounded powers that can be well defined in your power pool.

 

What do you think??

 

 

Doc

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

You have a bow that can add up to 3D6 Killing to an arrow?!?!?!?!

 

PS: Was informed that if I attempt to contact your mother again that I'll get a holy sunburn.

 

Yeah, well, I could've told you that. And no, I was just ballparking "in case." The most damage that you'll likely see is 2d6+1 (heavy English Longbow). Which would be 35 AP, IIRC.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

I realise that I am coming to this very late in the day but I have a thought that you might want to consider.

 

How about buying the bow as a the main power?

 

Heavy bow: 2D6 RKA, real weapon, OAF (Bow and arrows)

 

Now when you have a heavy bow and arrows then you can do 2D6 RKAs.

 

You can change the damage a bow does simply by definig the damage that you wish arrows fired by the bow to do. This means that any arrow you lick up will do the same damage from the bow.

 

Now you consider arrows. An arrow that does 2D6 RKA when fred from a heavy bow is probably only worth 1/2D6 when used as a dagger. So you might build an arrow as 1/2D6 HKA, real weapon, independent. This doesn't matter when it is fired from the bow but you are firing a focus that may provide your enemies with a weapon when it gets there.

 

So waht about armour piercing arrows. I think these could be built as multipowers: slot 1 - HKA as before, slot 2 - NPA (AP) bought for the heaviest bow they could be fired from. They could also be bought as two powers - more expensive than normal arrows but so they should be.

 

You could also build arrows that added to the damage of the bow.

 

No handwavium required anywhere and good compounded powers that can be well defined in your power pool.

 

What do you think??

 

 

Doc

 

Nope. Not for my purposes, certainly. And the only 'handwave' I used was in the stacking of the two damages, to be fair, but the Bow is in fact paying for the bulk of the damage, and the arrow must exist as its own power with its own advantages. Agreed, that a variation on this theme would be to build "the bow" to do its thing, and then build "specialty arrows" as NPAs, which would also work, and certainly makes more sense than the version listed in the text now. But then you end up with very awkward NPA builds for everything, whereas I turned it the other way round.

 

However, to do as you suggest, simply take the build I already have, remove the NPA element, add back to the damage you want to do, and then slap on the NPA to the arrow (an example is already shown of that above). So it'll work, but it wouldn't be my preferred method.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

But then you end up with very awkward NPA builds for everything' date=' whereas I turned it the other way round. [/quote']

 

Well, you only need NPAs when you want to add things like Armour piercing. For most normal stuff you either have the ranged power from the bow and a small HKA working as a focus for the arrows OR the ranged power from the bow with, for example, some added damage from a heavy arrow.

 

No NPAs necessary.

 

So it'll work' date=' but it wouldn't be my preferred method. [/quote']

 

 

Your campaign, your choice. :)

 

Doc

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Well, you only need NPAs when you want to add things like Armour piercing. For most normal stuff you either have the ranged power from the bow and a small HKA working as a focus for the arrows OR the ranged power from the bow with, for example, some added damage from a heavy arrow.

 

No NPAs necessary.

 

Your campaign, your choice. :)

 

Doc

 

But there's still no clear cut counting; i.e., how much does an arrow cost, really? Sure, you can break out the speciality arrows with that solution, but I genuinely (in fact the whole purpose of the exercise is) to have them completely separated. The bow is now simply "a bow." It doesn't come with arrows, it has no charges of its own. That's what I was alluding too but was probably unclear.

 

The purpose was never to build an RKA Bow, "now with specialty arrows." I could have done that via NPAs at any time and simply said, "Um, okay, the most damage a bow can do is... 2d6+1, so to make an NPA AP Arrow it needs X Charges and to be AP up to 35 points... it's an OAF Recoverable... okay, done." But how much are normal arrows? What about arrows that I don't want an NPA for, or ones that are enchanted, or ones that are poorly made (one less DC and more fragile) or well made (one more DC and sturdy?)

 

Do you see what I'm getting at? This is a purely heroic problem, yes, but any solution (in my mind) short of completely divorcing them falls short. I'm sorry if I came off as dismissive, it's just that I had a very specific problem and I wanted to build an equally specific solution. Now under this build, there's absolutely no question that you can make almost whatever arrows you want, and almost whatever BOWS you want, all without the messy inbetween parts. That was the purpose of the exercise. While Caris may have a point in that it's a "cheap" Armor Pierce, or whatever, the build isn't invalidated. Cheap, yes, but far from 'wrong.'

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Yeah' date=' well, I could've told you that. And no, I was just ballparking "in case." The most damage that you'll likely see is 2d6+1 (heavy English Longbow). Which would be 35 AP, IIRC.[/quote']

 

 

2D6+1 + Arrow Damage?

 

Edit: OK, looked at the builds again. I see where you are going with the bows, now. It isn't as bad as I was thinking. I was picturing you ending up with 10DCs Killing in a Heroic game.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

2D6+1 + Arrow Damage?

 

No my little Liche, you're misreading.

 

The maximum damage likely to be dealt is 7 DCs; 1/2 d6 for the arrow (2 DC) with +5 DCs from a Heavy English Long (1 1/2d6) for a final net of 2d6+1 DCs. That's the 'point' of the exercise; yes, the Arrow (and the AP in general) get away with being cheaper, but getting AP arrows is a pain in the first place. Besides, according to Dark Champions there isn't even an associated COST for making a round Armor Piercing; they just sort of ARE. This way I at least know roughly what the cost should be, which isn't the same (nor should it be) as a weapon which is always armor piercing.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at? This is a purely heroic problem' date=' yes, but any solution (in my mind) short of completely divorcing them falls short. I'm sorry if I came off as dismissive, it's just that I had a very specific problem and I wanted to build an equally specific solution. Now under this build, there's absolutely no question that you can make almost whatever arrows you want, and almost whatever BOWS you want, all without the messy inbetween parts. That was the purpose of the exercise. While Caris may have a point in that it's a "cheap" Armor Pierce, or whatever, the build isn't invalidated. Cheap, yes, but far from 'wrong.'[/quote']

 

I do see what you are getting at. In my build, each arrow is an independent entity, you buy each arrow as a 1/2D6 HKA (with extra bits if you want). It is a real weapon focus in itself but has a dual function as a focus that allows the bow to access its ranged killing attack - obviously each focus is one-use until it is recovered.

 

So, I didn't use charges in any way, just expect the player to purchase his arrows as multiple HKA killing attacks. Do resource pools allow you to double the number of a particular focus type for each 5 points spent?

 

Doc

 

 

I liked this mainly because it allowed very easily to distinguish between the damage done by the arrow when used as a hand-held weapon and as a projectile from a bow.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at? This is a purely heroic problem' date=' yes, but any solution (in my mind) short of completely divorcing them falls short. I'm sorry if I came off as dismissive, it's just that I had a very specific problem and I wanted to build an equally specific solution. Now under this build, there's absolutely no question that you can make almost whatever arrows you want, and almost whatever BOWS you want, all without the messy inbetween parts. That was the purpose of the exercise. While Caris may have a point in that it's a "cheap" Armor Pierce, or whatever, the build isn't invalidated. Cheap, yes, but far from 'wrong.'[/quote']

 

 

Certainly wasn't meaning to accuse you of "bad wrong fun." I think that most of the people are having a problem getting their heads around worrying about the total cost of equipment for a Heroic game.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Certainly wasn't meaning to accuse you of "bad wrong fun." I think that most of the people are having a problem getting their heads around worrying about the total cost of equipment for a Heroic game.

 

Which is odd, because that's the very problem I fixed. :think:

 

You buy your bow. Your bow with all its limitations costs you (blah). Like, 9 real points (assuming a max of 35 Active Points for the arrow). Heavy Long, adds 5 DCs to your arrows. Fine. You buy arrows. A plain jane quiver of recoverable arrows costs... 4 real? I think? Now you're at 13. Most Resource Pools cover 60 points of equipment at base, and the original build for a Heavy Long is 10 Real with 10 Recoverable Charges. So you get 3 extra points, two extra arrows, and you're good to go.

 

Now I know that if you purchase Heavy Arrows precisely what those do; I know how much they cost in your Resource Pool, every time. Wanna buy an Entangling Arrow? You can! I know that you can go up to 35 Active Points of Entangle with it. That's what I'm getting at; that was the whole point. Now there's no confusion whatsoever.

 

Everything is paid for, every arrow can be modeled as a clean effect, no muss, no fuss.

 

Unless I misunderstood your point as "It's Heroic, why are you worrying about equipment?" and the answer is "I use Resource Pools and the entire group has been going nuts trying to figure this out. It wasn't just "I'll do it this way!" it was "I like this better, it makes more sense in the long run, and my whole group agreed flat out that it was the solution for us." That would be the OTHER reason. :D

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Unless I misunderstood your point as "It's Heroic' date=' why are you worrying about equipment?" and the answer is "I use Resource Pools and the entire group has been going nuts trying to figure this out. It wasn't just "I'll do it this way!" it was "I like this better, it makes more sense in the long run, and my whole group agreed flat out that it was the solution for us." That would be the OTHER reason. :D[/quote']

 

I was referring to the people here on the board. A significant percentage of us don't use equipment pools for equipment, and only have PCs spend points on very rare pieces of equipment in a Heroic game.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

I was referring to the people here on the board. A significant percentage of us don't use equipment pools for equipment' date=' and only have PCs spend points on very rare pieces of equipment in a Heroic game.[/quote']

 

Ah, see, because in our Heroic campaigns people with "powers" still abound (Paladins, Druids, and so on) it became important early on to correctly map who got what equipment and how much they could reasonably carry. Hence, we started using Resource Pools, and made sure that money was truly a special effect.

 

So we needed to know "how much DOES a quiver of AP arrows cost?" and there was no way to tell without ripping the whole thing down and rebuilding it, precisely as the book suggests. Which is what I did. Hence, the build before you now.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Ah, see, because in our Heroic campaigns people with "powers" still abound (Paladins, Druids, and so on) it became important early on to correctly map who got what equipment and how much they could reasonably carry. Hence, we started using Resource Pools, and made sure that money was truly a special effect.

 

So we needed to know "how much DOES a quiver of AP arrows cost?" and there was no way to tell without ripping the whole thing down and rebuilding it, precisely as the book suggests. Which is what I did. Hence, the build before you now.

 

Hey, I got it. I've toyed with equipment pools if I ever got around to my Very High Fantasy Campaign.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Hey' date=' I got it. I've toyed with equipment pools if I ever got around to my [b']Very High Fantasy Campaign[/b].

 

Well that's when they're most helpful, actually -- so you know that everything is balanced across the board. No crazy. Well, no more crazy than I usually carry with a bat and a sack full of weasels.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

In my heroic setting' date=' everyone gets a resource pool.[/quote']

 

I haven't read the part of Dark Champions dealing with resource pools, so I don't know how it might deal with equipment. I based my builds off of what I have read in 5ER and Fantasy Hero.

 

If you look at the many many ways in which ammunition is broken out' date=' it became clear (to me) that there was no "good way" to model the ammunition itself. I didn't see a clean way to cost it out across the game, and I want to do that. I want to know how much a clip of APHEX ammunition should cost when you put it into your Resource Pool; this is HERO, after all, and I should be able to do that.[/quote']

 

I actually would recommend *not* buying the ammunition in a more modern setting individually with 1 Charge each (like I did with the arrows). While it's possible to "pre-stack" the ammo in a certain sequence in a magazine, IMO this is not done because it's unrealistic for the character spraying away with an Uzi to know if he's shot 14 or 16 shots, and it prevents the character from adapting to changing combat situations. Arrows/bolts are a whole different matter, being "single-loaded" immediately prior to firing.

 

You have arrows. They're generally built as 1d6 HKA, OAF (arrow). X charges, recoverable (you can model a quiver fairly easily using the X charges bit). However, using this method, it becomes dirt easy to make it a Flame Arrow (either via a change in damage type (normal to flame) or by adding damage, or additional SFX to the arrow itself), an Ice Arrow, an Affects Desolid arrow, and so on.

 

And, as Ocelot pointed out, maybe you want a bow SO POWERFUL that it, in turn, makes anything fired from it Armor Piercing.

 

...

 

IOW, I want to accurately model each bow (or crossbow) so that I can enchant bows, or enchant arrows, with equal ease. So when my archer finds "armor piercing arrows," I know that 12 of those have a set cost (1d6 HKA + 1/2 AP, and all subsequent limitations).

 

If it's the arrow, it's the arrow (that's the easy one). But if it's the bow, some of that requires Naked Power Advantages. IMO there's no two ways around that. Some of it doesn't take an NPA, but instead just a separate attack power that is used in a MPA with the arrow.

 

Okay, here's my analysis and builds for a Heroic game where you need to build Bows and Arrows separately.

 

The Arrow remains the essentially the same for all bows in the same category (by draw length). Regular arrows IMO should be HKA w/ a Range Based On Strength advantage which is limited with "Only With Bow". Because they are improvised weapons at best when used to stab HtH, they also take a Limitation that quarters the damage done when used that way (STR still adds prior to the quartering).

 

This avoids the potential problem of the Bow's naked Ranged Advantage not being for enough Active Points to cover a highly magical arrow. The ability to physically project an arrow shouldn't be restricted by the power level of an arrow.

 

 

6 Short Arrow: 1D6 HKA + (Strength-Based Range(+¼) - Only When Used With Shortbow(-1))(19 Active Points), Beam(-¼), One Recoverable Charge(-1¼), Total Damaged Is Quartered When Used Without Bow(-½), Mass(47 Grams; -0)

 

8 Long Arrow: 1D6+1 HKA + (Strength-Based Range(+¼) - Only When Used With Longbow/Composite Bow(-1))(25 Active Points), Beam(-¼), One Recoverable Charge(-1¼), Total Damaged Is Quartered When Used Without Bow(-½), Mass(94 Grams; -0)

 

NOTE: 47 Grams falls in the -45 STR level, and 94 Grams falls in the -40 STR level.

 

Each arrow is it's own 1 Charge, Recoverable. This is the easiest way to handle characters having a varied assortment and number of arrows.

 

The Bow is mainly a "Strength-Amplification" tool that had a STR Min to use. It should be able to add damage to pointy arrows (HKA) as well as blunt arrows (HA), which is why I went with STR. The bow has STR that the user's STR doesn't add into. The bow's STR is what determines the range and damage increases -- the user's STR is what "cocks" the weapon (thus the STR Min).

 

It also has STR Min Cannot Add Damage (a self-made variant of STR Min Cannot Add/Subtract Damage(-½)). It is more restrictive, and thus IMO worth -¼ more as a Limitation. This means that STR above that needed to do a Full Draw on the bow has no benefit, but STR below that does cause an OCV & DC penalty due to struggling to do a Partial Draw. I added the Limitation that reduces the range for sub-minimum STR because it makes sense.

 

I started with the bows listed in Fantasy Hero (with slight changes to streamline the choices & builds). Taking the ranges listed, I worked

backward to figure out the STR needed to throw it's arrow that far with the Increased Maximum Range(x5 range) advantage. Hey, If it's legal to Megascale the throwing distance, it should be legal to increase it with IMR. I used the Standing Throw chart to arrive at the STR needed because IMO that is the choice most likely to pass a GM's audit -- it doesn't presume that it would get the most favorable column (Running Throw).

 

Without further ado, here they are:

 

Summary Chart:

 
                                           STR
Weapon              Damage*       Range*    Min    Notes:
Shortbow, Light     1D6(+0 DC)      95"       5    0.9 kg, 2 BODY, 3 DEF
Shortbow, Medium    1D6+1(+1 DC)   125"       8    1.0 kg, 2 BODY, 3 DEF
Shortbow, Heavy     1½D6(+2 DC)    155"      10    1.1 kg, 2 BODY, 3 DEF
Shortbow, V. Hvy    2D6(+3 DC)     185"      13    1.2 kg, 2 BODY, 3 DEF

Longbow, Light      1D6+1(+0 DC)   140"      10    1.1 kg, 3 BODY, 3 DEF
Longbow, Medium     1½D6(+1 DC)    170"      13    1.2 kg, 3 BODY, 3 DEF
Longbow, Heavy      2D6(+2 DC)     200"      15    1.3 kg, 3 BODY, 3 DEF
Longbow, V. Hvy     2D6+1(+3 DC)   230"      18    1.4 kg, 3 BODY, 3 DEF

*Damage is for a "regular" arrow of the appropriate size, with extra STR damage added in.
*Range is modified -10" for every point of STR below Minimum.

 

Builds:

 

Shortbow, Light: Common Limitations: OAF(bow; -1), Required Hands(Two-Handed; -½), Concentration(1/2 DCV; -¼), Real Weapon(-¼)

1 1) 1 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(2 Active Points); Only To Increase Damage & Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-½), STR Minimum(5 STR; -¼), STR Minimum Cannot Add Damage(-3/4), No Secondary Stats(-½)

1 2) +2 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(3 Active Points); Only To Increase Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-1), Reduced By 5 Per Point Of User's STR Below The STR Minimum(-1), No Secondary Stats(-½), Only Adds To Bow's STR(-0), User's STR Doesn't Add(-½)

 

Shortbow, Medium: Common Limitations: OAF(bow; -1), Required Hands(Two-Handed; -½), Concentration(1/2 DCV; -¼), Real Weapon(-¼)

1 1) 5 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(9 Active Points); Only To Increase Damage & Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-½), STR Minimum(8 STR; -½), STR Minimum Cannot Add Damage(-3/4), No Secondary Stats(-½)

4 2) +13 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(23 Active Points); Only To Increase Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-1), Reduced By 5 Per Point Of User's STR Below The STR Minimum(-1), No Secondary Stats(-½), Only Adds To Bow's STR(-0), User's STR Doesn't Add(-½)

 

Shortbow, Heavy: Common Limitations: OAF(bow; -1), Required Hands(Two-Handed; -½), Concentration(1/2 DCV; -¼), Real Weapon(-¼)

3 1) 10 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(17 Active Points); Only To Increase Damage & Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-½), STR Minimum(10 STR; -½), STR Minimum Cannot Add Damage(-3/4), No Secondary Stats(-½)

7 2) +23 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(40 Active Points); Only To Increase Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-1), Reduced By 5 Per Point Of User's STR Below The STR Minimum(-1), No Secondary Stats(-½), Only Adds To Bow's STR(-0), User's STR Doesn't Add(-½)

 

Shortbow, V. Hvy: Common Limitations: OAF(bow; -1), Required Hands(Two-Handed; -½), Concentration(1/2 DCV; -¼), Real Weapon(-¼)

5 1) 15 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(26 Active Points); Only To Increase Damage & Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-½), STR Minimum(13 STR; -½), STR Minimum Cannot Add Damage(-3/4), No Secondary Stats(-½)

10 2) +33 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(58 Active Points); Only To Increase Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-1), Reduced By 5 Per Point Of User's STR Below The STR Minimum(-1), No Secondary Stats(-½), Only Adds To Bow's STR(-0), User's STR Doesn't Add(-½)

 

Longbow, Light: Common Limitations: OAF(bow; -1), Required Hands(Two-Handed; -½), Concentration(1/2 DCV; -¼), Real Weapon(-¼), Not While Mounted(-½)

1 1) 1 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(2 Active Points); Only To Increase Damage & Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-½), STR Minimum(10 STR; -½), STR Minimum Cannot Add Damage(-3/4), No Secondary Stats(-½)

8 2) +29 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(51 Active Points); Only To Increase Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-1), Reduced By 5 Per Point Of User's STR Below The STR Minimum(-1), No Secondary Stats(-½), Only Adds To Bow's STR(-0), User's STR Doesn't Add(-½)

2 3) +2 Vs Range Penalty w/ All Of Bow's Attacks(6 active Points)

 

Longbow, Medium: Common Limitations: OAF(bow; -1), Required Hands(Two-Handed; -½), Concentration(1/2 DCV; -¼), Real Weapon(-¼), Not While Mounted(-½)

2 1) 5 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(9 Active Points); Only To Increase Damage & Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-½), STR Minimum(13 STR; -½), STR Minimum Cannot Add Damage(-3/4), No Secondary Stats(-½)

11 2) +40 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(70 Active Points); Only To Increase Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-1), Reduced By 5 Per Point Of User's STR Below The STR Minimum(-1), No Secondary Stats(-½), Only Adds To Bow's STR(-0), User's STR Doesn't Add(-½)

2 3) +2 Vs Range Penalty w/ All Of Bow's Attacks(6 active Points)

 

Longbow, Heavy: Common Limitations: OAF(bow; -1), Required Hands(Two-Handed; -½), Concentration(1/2 DCV; -¼), Real Weapon(-¼), Not While Mounted(-½)

3 1) 10 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(17 Active Points); Only To Increase Damage & Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-½), STR Minimum(15 STR; -3/4), STR Minimum Cannot Add Damage(-3/4), No Secondary Stats(-½)

13 2) +50 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(87 Active Points); Only To Increase Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-1), Reduced By 5 Per Point Of User's STR Below The STR Minimum(-1), No Secondary Stats(-½), Only Adds To Bow's STR(-0), User's STR Doesn't Add(-½)

2 3) +2 Vs Range Penalty w/ All Of Bow's Attacks(6 active Points)

 

Longbow, V. Hvy: Common Limitations: OAF(bow; -1), Required Hands(Two-Handed; -½), Concentration(1/2 DCV; -¼), Real Weapon(-¼), Not While Mounted(-½)

4 1) 15 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(26 Active Points); Only To Increase Damage & Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-½), STR Minimum(18 STR; -1), STR Minimum Cannot Add Damage(-3/4), No Secondary Stats(-½)

16 2) +60 STR + Reduced Endurance(0 END; +½), Increased Maximum Range: Throwing Distance(x5; +¼)(105 Active Points); Only To Increase Range Of Arrows Shot With Bow(-1), Reduced By 5 Per Point Of User's STR Below The STR Minimum(-1), No Secondary Stats(-½), Only Adds To Bow's STR(-0), User's STR Doesn't Add(-½)

2 3) +2 Vs Range Penalty w/ All Of Bow's Attacks(6 active Points)

 

No Naked Power Advantages needed for the basic Bow & Arrow!

 

Note that if the arrow has an advantage (like Armor Piercing), the STR of the bow should follow the rules for adding damage found on 5ER, p408.

 

 

The Quiver was easy in comparison to all of that. :)

 

1 Quiver: Extra Limbs(Enough To Carry 20 Arrows)(5 Active Points); OIF(Container: Quiver; -½),- Only To Carry Items In Container(-2), Mass(1kg; -0)

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

A couple of quibbles, sorry. Shouldn't the added damage from the bows have Reduced Endurance: 0 END, and because of some of the advantages on the arrows shouldn't the arrow builds include enough of an NPA version of those advantages to cover the added damage from the bow?

 

Edit: btw - your mother said to wash behind your ears and eat more vegetables.

 

 

This brings up an interesting balance question since the average bow wielder takes time to fire and arrow and the concentration limitation puts that person at 1/2 DCV too, should it also cost END. In contrast the sword wielder doesn't get a1/2 DCV or extra time penalty but has the END cost to contend with. Thoughts?

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

This brings up an interesting balance question since the average bow wielder takes time to fire and arrow and the concentration limitation puts that person at 1/2 DCV too' date=' should it also cost END. In contrast the sword wielder doesn't get a1/2 DCV or extra time penalty but has the END cost to contend with. Thoughts?[/quote']

 

It should, absolutely, because you're expending physical effort to pull the bow; you don't expend as much effort, say, to fire a gun (Charges) wherein having charges on the weapon automatically eliminates the END usage. On the original (printed) bow design, they cost no END because of that.

 

For our builds, the END cost does come back. As far as the Concentration Lim, that's from sighting down range and focusing on your target. As I've said, I believe there is a "hip shot" you can do that eliminates this, but it comes with subsequent OCV penalties.

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

This brings up an interesting balance question since the average bow wielder takes time to fire and arrow and the concentration limitation puts that person at 1/2 DCV too' date=' should it also cost END. In contrast the sword wielder doesn't get a1/2 DCV or extra time penalty but has the END cost to contend with. Thoughts?[/quote']

 

Any weapon build with the Strength Minimum Limitation will cause the user to use his STR at that level, and incur the appropriate END cost from that STR use.

 

Generally, when this is the case, I believe it is usual for all the "normal" powers to have Reduced END(Zero END) on them. A magical power in a sword could draw END from the user while the sword power itself (the HKA) is at Zero END (but has a STR Minimum).

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Re: Bow & Arrows separately.

 

Wow. Those really look great' date=' Steve. Glad to see my work has inspired someone else to take a slightly different but entirely similar approach. Well done, and repped.[/quote']

 

Thanks, Thia. :) Those were a Dusey to figure out, and I had to spend several days working on them.

 

If the Real Point cost of the Arrows is too high, one could always introduce a custom Limitation like "Charges Breakout Bonus(-2)" to offset the higher individual cost (20 charges of X usually costs less than Twenty single charges of X). Sorta like the way some Magic Systems in Fantasy Hero reduce the Real Point cost of spells for a VPP.

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