You can't move! Ha ha ha!

[Vestnik]

I've been working on my new Black Hole Guy supers character (he of the little pointy friend), brainstorming on powers.

 

Here's an obvious one I came up with:

 

Time Dilation I: 12d6 Suppress Speed (60 Active Points)

 

Time Dilation II: 6d6 Suppress Speed, Area Effect (Radius; +1) (60 Active Points)

 

My question is -- isn't this ungodly powerful? On average the first one will bring the target's Speed down by 4, immobilizing most Bricks and virtually all mooks and bringing even a Speedster with a Speed of 7 down to a laughable 3. The AE version is less of an "I Win" button, but it will neutralize a whole room of agents (or bring them down to a SPD of 1 if they're Viper guys) -- for the same cost as a 6d6 AE EB.

 

Would you guys allow this? (I have no GM to go to since I am in a long spell between games. This is a character "in reserve." Making characters is fun. )

[Sean Waters]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Yes it is ungodly powerful, but no more so that, for instance, supress INT.

 

TD1 averages 42 points; -4 SPD, TD2 averages 21 points; -2 SPD, and there's no reason you only have to apply them once, although it gets END expensive.

 

I might allow it, depends on overall build.

[Vestnik]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Man, why does anybody bother to get Entangle?

[Sean Waters]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Man' date=' why does anybody bother to get Entangle?[/quote']

 

It has some potential small advantages. It is unaffected by any defence. It reduces movement and DCV to zero IMMEDIATELY* (whereas the supress only does so once SPD is drained to 0), allowing the other team members to do a pretty nasty coordinated attack. It is fire and forget, requiring no maintenance. It can form barriers (*sigh*).

 

By and large, though, SPD adjustment is very nasty, and often a better bet than entangle.

 

*The speedster you hit may be down to 3 SPD from 7, but his CV is still 10+

[Kdansky]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

I would blame "speed is too cheap" for this

 

We all know that for a 350 cp character, speed at a lousy 10 cp is really way too cheap. You basically double your power from 3 to 6 speed, and that is less than 10% of your points. If there wasn't such things as concept, I'm sure the most efficient build would be a speed 10, STR 60 (no end) brick.

[Comic]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

And yet there's the downsides: to affect the target meaningfully, you often have to use this attack for several phases, which in effect is increased END cost, Lockout, and requires successive targeting rolls; adjudicating SPD changes is a paperwork nightmare; dropping SPD from 7 to 3 means your target's next action goes from being next phase to the phase after that: if she one-shots you, escapes your range, takes cover or otherwise is no longer affected, she's back up to 7 SPD, and you've spent 6 END and wasted an attack roll for the same effects as forcing the target to abort to dodge, which you've spent 60 pts (or 6 in a Multislot) to achieve.

 

It all balances, IMO.

[Doc Samson]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Suppress is the reason most Brick's have campaign cap Power Defense.

 

I don't like that Suppress is so cheap from a GM standpoint either. Let's say in a 60 ap campaign I have 25-30 pts. of Power Defense. This is reasonable defense against a 12d6 Suppress, more than halving its effect. But, the character is now functionally immune to Drain, Transfer, Dispel, and Transform. If I limit the player to 10-15 pts. of Power Defense, which is reasonable defense against the above, the player will cry foul if he ever gets hit with a full AP Suppress. I would prefer Suppress be greater in cost (but balanced in other ways) so that I am not forced to houserule it's use or Power Defense.

 

And yet there's the downsides: to affect the target meaningfully, you often have to use this attack for several phases, which in effect is increased END cost, Lockout, and requires successive targeting rolls; adjudicating SPD changes is a paperwork nightmare; dropping SPD from 7 to 3 means your target's next action goes from being next phase to the phase after that: if she one-shots you, escapes your range, takes cover or otherwise is no longer affected, she's back up to 7 SPD, and you've spent 6 END and wasted an attack roll for the same effects as forcing the target to abort to dodge, which you've spent 60 pts (or 6 in a Multislot) to achieve.

 

It all balances, IMO.

 

I respectfully disagree here. Because of the cost, a single use of Suppress against a characteristic can be devastating if you don't houserule some sort of severe cap for it. I realize any power can be overpowered without a cap but Suppress will do it for half the cost.

[Vestnik]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

I don't want to turn people into statues. What do you all think the limitation "Cannot Reduce Speed Below 1" would be worth? -1/2?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

You might want to look at the villainess Stasis in my Project: PREDATOR adventure published in one of the earlier Digital HEROes issues. Her entire shtick revolves around effects of this nature.

[Jaxom]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Ok, just thinking off the top of my head...

 

Version I is a reasonable power to take... 60 active points with an expected value of 42 points effect. It takes out one target without power defense per action on your part. Compare this with 60 points of Presence attack... Pretty similar against a class of opponent. Keeping someone locked down takes repeated applications and it can be mitigated with power defense. Further, it is a visible power so nobody on the battle field has any question about what just happened... Hope your defenses are good.

 

Version II is a bit more interesting... Personal Immunity? Not in the 60 point version. Can't use it on multiple targets surrounding you. Expected hit is 21 points and again is going to be visible power effects.

 

This is not seriously different from an EB that is powerful enough that people decide to abort to something defensive like a dodge or dive for cover. Especially in a campaign where power limits are high enough for a 75-90 point version of this.

 

Generally speaking, I find that most campaigns without external limits see speed creep. At the 350-point supers level or higher it is rare in my experience to see anyone, even a brick, with less than 5 speed.

 

Your milage with this power is going to depend largely on what the typical character in your campaign looks like and whether or not you have placed any extra constraints on SPD in your campaign. On paper, it would fit in most campaigns I have seen without too much trouble.

[Vestnik]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Ok, just thinking off the top of my head...

 

Version I is a reasonable power to take... 60 active points with an expected value of 42 points effect. It takes out one target without power defense per action on your part. Compare this with 60 points of Presence attack... Pretty similar against a class of opponent. Keeping someone locked down takes repeated applications and it can be mitigated with power defense. Further, it is a visible power so nobody on the battle field has any question about what just happened... Hope your defenses are good.

 

I'm thinking more of one-on-one combats. This power could turn Grond into a (very large) garden gnome, as long as the END lasts.

 

Except for Grond's +2 SPD only to punch. I'm trying to wrap my head around the image of Gronf trapped in time but still able to punch.

[Kenn]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

An example of why Drain vs a game mechanic doesn't always work. Because if the game mechanic has a different special effect than the special effect of the drain itself, one ends up with the "Grond stuck in time but still able to punch" problem.

[Tech]

Suppress is the reason most Bricks have campaign cap Power Defense.

 

I respectfully disagree with your statement here. This seems to be a blanket statement, one I have rarely run into with the possible exception of megavillains such as Dr. Destroyer or such. Most Bricks, from what I've seen, do not have massive amounts of Power Defense. Rather, they might have some defense and not all bricks have power defense. Perhaps this should be a different thread (if continued) as it detracts from the Suppress/Entangle.

 

 

Onto the 'You can't move' point of this thread...

 

Although powerful, it's legal and I'd allow it. For myself, I had not considered some of these ideas. Vestnik and Sean Waters, thank you for your contributions to giving a veteran GM new and cool power ideas. Bwhahaha!

[Comic]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

I respectfully disagree here. Because of the cost' date=' a single use of Suppress against a characteristic can be devastating if you don't houserule some sort of severe cap for it. I realize any power can be overpowered without a cap but Suppress will do it for half the cost.[/quote']

I'm not sure I understand where the devastation comes from?

 

A single use of Suppress suppresses SPD for one phase. After that phase is over, the SPD is back to full, unlike Drain.

 

If the attack misses, then that's an entirely wasted effort with the loss of the action and the END, as is usual for attacks.

 

If it hits, it is like a one phase Entangle Takes No Damage that instead of by STR or targeted attack can be defeated by the advantage Inherent on SPD, or Power Defense, or as Grond does it with extra arms that add to his SPD. As a GM, based on its special effect, I'd also allow creative ways to break out of this Suppress: Teleport or XDM seem like good candidates.

 

And then, one phase later (normal SPD phase, not suppressed phase).. the character is back up to full SPD.

 

About the equivalent of a PRE attack for the same cost, only single target and requires a targetted attack to hit, and costs END.

 

Would I allow such an attack to every character? Only if it was in concept and didn't unbalance the character.

 

Would it unbalance all characters? I don't think so.

[Vestnik]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

I'm not sure I understand where the devastation comes from?

 

A single use of Suppress suppresses SPD for one phase. After that phase is over, the SPD is back to full, unlike Drain.

 

Hmmm? Won't it suppress at long as the attacking character pays END and keeps making an attack roll (not hard to do, if the target can't move)?

 

I think maybe you're thinking of Dispel, not Suppress.

[Tonio]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

You need to keep on making attack rolls?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

I've been using Speed Suppresses in FH as "Slow Person/Hold Person" style spells for a long time now.

 

Don't find it horribly unbalancing, tho it is a LOT more effective against a single big opponent rather than a horde of smaller badguys

[Vestnik]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

You need to keep on making attack rolls?

 

I... think... so...

[Kdansky]

Suppress? One attack roll in the beginning, then pay end every phase. That's it. It's constant. It's like drain with "pay end every phase", but return rate of zero. And it's only 5 points, range included. Drain is twice as much, no range (making it three times as much with range), and you probably have to buy the return rate up one step on the time chart to make it really annoying. Yes, Suppress OWNS.

 

Supress 1d6, ranged (default), 0 end (+1/2): 7.5cp per d6

Drain 1d6, ranged (+1/2), costs end (default), one step up on chart (+1/4), 17.5 cp per d6

 

And supress is A LOT better still. Pack uncontrolled on it, and it's like drain with Return Rate "Infinity", but still cheaper than basic drain. Never allow constant + uncontrolled

[Sean Waters]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

What kdansky said BUT, having hit with a supress, it is constant, so you just need to maintain it, and if you are happy to maintain it at the current level, no attack roll needed. However you can maintain that attack AND make another, and if that hits, you have two supresses running, the totals add and you have to maintain both if you wan the supression to contiune at that level. You can keep on making attack rolls an increasing the effect if you want to, but you don't have to.

 

As an aside it never makes sense to me that someone is getting slower but they remain as hard to hit as before (until SPD drops to zero, obviously). As a result I almost always require that any such attach adjusts SPD and DEX together, which seems more realistic and helps to moderate the 42 points off SPD in the above example. Still, then it is -2 SPD and -7 DEX, so DCV is dropping 2 to 3 points - the target is still not in a happy place!

[Jaxom]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

I'm thinking more of one-on-one combats. This power could turn Grond into a (very large) garden gnome, as long as the END lasts.

 

Except for Grond's +2 SPD only to punch. I'm trying to wrap my head around the image of Gronf trapped in time but still able to punch.

 

This is a special effects issue. Take a person who spent 60 points on Presence. They haymaker a presence attack. Even with the penalty dice for (probably) being at a disadvantage they are likely to cost him a phase. If they come up with an appropriate speech in character I'm even going to give them bonus dice ("You're outnumbers, come quietly" is not going to work but something like "Are you sure Dr. Destroyer is ok with you beating us all to a pulp?" would work wonders in a given situation).

 

The issue here doesn't seem to be the points. It's that you've found overlapping special effects that bother you.

[Jaxom]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Regarding Suppress vs. Drain, the price difference is because of the difference in duration. You cannot look at the same power levels because of active point costs but since SPD is one of those "all-or-nothing" powers, draining 1 point of speed is as good as draining 10.

 

So take a 1d6 Drain SPD, recover at END of Turn or once per minute. Hit them once on your first phase, probably for about 3-5 END depending on how munchkin you got... This is as good as a 1d6 Suppress maintained every phase of your action for the entire turn.

 

In part this is so painful because you're talking SPD. You only care about SPD during a fight so there is no reason to talk about times longer than a minute. Compare that to Drain EGO, recovers per week. Further, you get whacky SPD interactions... If I am SPD 4 and targetting a speedster, then I pay for Suppress on my Phases, not his. Alternately, if I am SPD 4 and higher DEX than a SPD 2 Brick, I can hit him on my 6 and 12 and *not* on my 3 and 9.

 

Pick a different thing to drain, STR or EGO or something and look at the END cost compared to the duration of impact and you'll see in a heartbeat why Drain is so much more expensive.

[Tonio]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Never allow constant + uncontrolled

 

I'm sure you mean "constant + uncontrolled + 0 end". Plain ol' constant + uncontrolled is powerful, but not game breaking, since you need to pay all the END up front. =)

[Comic]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

..As an aside it never makes sense to me that someone is getting slower but they remain as hard to hit as before (until SPD drops to zero' date=' obviously). As a result I almost always require that any such attach adjusts SPD and DEX together, which seems more realistic and helps to moderate the 42 points off SPD in the above example.[/quote']

 

Exactly right.

 

Adjusting SPD needs a better special effect than merely adjusting speed, or you end up with fairly ridiculous outcomes.

 

Although the Suppress is a powerful thing, especially at the 60 AP level (and yes, once established requires only spending 6 END/Phase and foregoing the use of those points on anything else but more of the same Suppress -- a limitation on those people trying to use the power from a framework -- which is a pretty sweet deal... I'd generally require "Suppress speed" to be bought at the +2 level for the group "SPD + STR + DEX + All movement powers that pass through space", and fairly obvious defenses in addition to Power Defense based on the special effect: teleport, xdm, possibly body alteration powers, that could be made on a Power roll.

 

With an average of 14 pts on 4d6 (1 SPD, 3 DC's of STR, 4 DEX, 7" of movement), it's still a potent attack, and gradually could wear someone down to a complete stop if the attacker can afford the END.. Which is about how any 60 AP power ought to work?

 

The pure mechanic Suppress SPD, pretty potent, but conceptually stretches the special effect too far except for the most four-color settings, I think.

[Dust Raven]

Re: You can't move! Ha ha ha!

 

Well, there's nothing wrong with either Suppress, except the mechanic doesn't support the SFX.

 

I'm picturing hitting ye average energy projector with a SPD of 5 with this, getting a lucky roll, and then nobody being able to hit him because he aborted his next action (which he isn't getting until the Suppress turns off, but he can still abort) to Dodge. I'm thinking it'll be even funnier if he aborted to Dive for Cover and actually moved!

 

A Suppress SPD is only a fraction of what a "time dilation" effect should be in the minds of most players.