Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

[Spence]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

 

For me Champions and the system were the same for so long I still think of them that way, but honestly the Champions themselves were among the least interesting characters in their universe.

 

PSI, VIPER, Dr D, CLOWN, PRIMUS, DEMON, Stronghold, UNTIL... Man, dont you feel a little warm and fuzzy just thinking about them?

 

 

I always took that to be intentional. After all the players PC's are supposed to be center stage. Not the NPC Heroes.

 

Villains on the other hand need to be interesting indeed

[Shaft]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

The Champions IP is well done- it's had 25 years to develop and unlike Marvel and Dc, it's had a consistent history, though the history does tend to reboot as the editions change.

 

I think slapping the Champions IP onto a COH engine is a great idea. Cryptic has a lot of experience with computer MMO game mechanics, and adding a Champions skin onto it will take advantage of Champions' experience with presentation. Meanwhile, the Champions Universe will give the game a developed feel.

[Spence]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

The Champions IP is well done- it's had 25 years to develop and unlike Marvel and Dc, it's had a consistent history, though the history does tend to reboot as the editions change.

 

I think slapping the Champions IP onto a COH engine is a great idea. Cryptic has a lot of experience with computer MMO game mechanics, and adding a Champions skin onto it will take advantage of Champions' experience with presentation. Meanwhile, the Champions Universe will give the game a developed feel.

 

Well said.

[Heroic Avatar]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

The Champions IP is well done- it's had 25 years to develop and unlike Marvel and Dc, it's had a consistent history, though the history does tend to reboot as the editions change.

 

I think slapping the Champions IP onto a COH engine is a great idea. Cryptic has a lot of experience with computer MMO game mechanics, and adding a Champions skin onto it will take advantage of Champions' experience with presentation. Meanwhile, the Champions Universe will give the game a developed feel.

 

I concur, but I think this engine is completely new and nothing like the champions engine.

[CorPse]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

It's the Internet. If people weren't out there missing the point and ignoring the obvious' date=' we'd have only a fraction of total useage that we have these days.[/quote']

 

This gave me a darn good chuckle, sir.

[CorPse]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I'd like to see some of the design aesthetic of the HERO system used for the online game' date=' but pencil and paper RPG is not CRPG, any more than stage plays are movies. Literal ports never work well. For pencil and paper, you can have any SFX you can think of; for the MMO, you can only have any SFX the devs could think of and easily implement.[/quote']

 

This is a great point K!

 

The best movie adaptations of books are free-wheeling and try to capture the spirit & essence of the book instead of a literal translation.

 

Why should PnP to MMO be any different?

[Steve Long]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I think when the Cryptic folx say they're drawing on the HERO System as "inspiration," that's a good sign. If they don't want to use the HERO System in full, then taking its core spirit of flexibility and customizability (to the extent one can in an MMO at this stage in time) is a definite step in the right direction. Marry that to a wise use of HERO terminology so people can relate one game to the other with a minimum of fuss, and I think it's a good thing for Hero Games and Hero players.

[kridenow]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

If something similar to advantages and limitations could find its way in, I'd be happy.

 

With "power templates" for guidance and quick selection of the most common/expected choices.

 

Or the ability to create your own templates to add to your personnal list... so you don't have to redo them for future characters... (just save the combination localy, not on server).

 

Well, it depends a lot of the ambitions of the game and the difficulty to achieve the desired balance...

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I don't know why this is even up for argument... anywhere. I would never even consider playing any MMO type of game that used the HERO System as its actual, working rule set, and this is why:

 

Once I have finished filling in my character sheet, I get to wait for GM approval for who knows how long (think of the player to GM ratio here!). I bet said GM will miss things, too, and there will be horribly broken or just not useful characters everywhere.

 

Do you know why I assume there is a GM? Because, as was stated earlier in the thread, without GM oversight, it's a trivially simple matter to build an unstoppable juggernaut, and the ratio of people who would build that juggernaut to people who wouldn't is balanced in extreme favor of the "juggernaut" side... and even with GM oversight, and I know this from being a GM, there will always be some clever bastard who slips something innocuous-looking past you, that turns out to be a huge game breaker.

 

It is my opinion that people who are still trying (impotently) to pressure Cryptic into adopting anything resembling HERO as we know it are completely, depressingly naive regarding the nature of MMO's (huge player base, significantly less huge staff), MMO players (balanced strongly in favor of "playing games as a competitive sport", as opposed to "playing games to role play a lovingly-crafted character"), and, in fact, the HERO System (How much freedom are we really willing to afford players of this game? Do you want to be in the same virtual city as 10,000 total munchkins who have meticulously crafted a damage-shield/absorption/regeneration AoE constant damage to all enemies in the vicinity + invulnerability power feedback loop? What if it's only the 1,000 of them that managed to make it past the exasperated, overworked, and outnumbered character generation-oversight GMs?).

[Spence]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I don't know why this is even up for argument...

 

People are arguing?

 

Do you want to be in the same virtual city as 10,000 total munchkins who have meticulously crafted a damage-shield/absorption/regeneration AoE constant damage to all enemies in the vicinity + invulnerability power feedback loop? What if it's only the 1,000 of them that managed to make it past the exasperated, overworked, and outnumbered character generation-oversight GMs?).

 

Which is why I have no problem with them using a different engine. In fact based on my small experience in MMO's I can't see them using a PnP rule system. Use commonalities yes, the actual system no.

 

I will be happy if they manage to avoid “Classes” (but I am not expecting it) and adopt the history and flavor of the CU. With PnP Champions I have to look under the hood, with a MMO I don’t. So I really don’t care if the Hero’s Energy Bolt is 1 point per 1d6 or some computer script as long as I get my Energy Bolt.

[archermoo]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

People are arguing?

 

 

 

Which is why I have no problem with them using a different engine. In fact based on my small experience in MMO's I can't see them using a PnP rule system. Use commonalities yes, the actual system no.

 

I will be happy if they manage to avoid “Classes” (but I am not expecting it) and adopt the history and flavor of the CU. With PnP Champions I have to look under the hood, with a MMO I don’t. So I really don’t care if the Hero’s Energy Bolt is 1 point per 1d6 or some computer script as long as I get my Energy Bolt.

 

According to the currently released information there will be Archetypes. All Archetypes will have access to all powers, but the powers will have different costs depending on which Archetype you've chosen.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

It's also worth noting that at the announcement seminar at DunDraCon '08, Darren mentioned that there was an agreement in place that would allow Cryptic to refer to the game engine as "the HERO System online" if they wanted to (even though Cryptic did not buy the HERO System from DOJ) if DOJ deemed the final rules engine for the MMO similar enough to the "real" HERO System.

 

Now, that's certainly no guarantee that the MMO rules engine will turn out to be that similar to the real HERO System. But the simple fact that the subject came up and was discussed, tacitly implies to me that Cryptic is interested in at least exploring the possibility of making the game engine (or at least, the front end of the game engine) substantially similar to the HERO System (within the realities of an MMO's needs, I'm sure). If they didn't have any interest in that at all, why bother even bringing it up?

 

Personally, I suspect (and this is just a SWAG on my part) that the final result -- while not identical to the HERO System/Champions -- will be close enough to it that longtime Champions players will easily recognize it as being based on Champions.

[Spence]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

According to the currently released information there will be Archetypes. All Archetypes will have access to all powers' date=' but the powers will have different costs depending on which Archetype you've chosen.[/quote']

 

And that is good for me. A MMO is not a PnP and I don't expect it to be. I just want the general flexability to still be there. How it is coded I leave to the people that have that set of skills

 

Personally' date=' I suspect (and this is just a SWAG on my part) that the final result -- while not identical to the HERO System/Champions -- will be close enough to it that longtime Champions players will easily recognize it as being based on Champions.[/quote']

 

and that would also work for me. I do hope that it will support the solo player. I just don't see myself with enough free time to live on a MMO, but i would like to play a few times a month.

[CorPse]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

It's also worth noting that at the announcement seminar at DunDraCon '08' date=' Darren mentioned that there was an agreement in place that would allow Cryptic to refer to the game engine as "the HERO System online" if they wanted to (even though Cryptic did [b']not[/b] buy the HERO System from DOJ) if DOJ deemed the final rules engine for the MMO similar enough to the "real" HERO System.

 

Now, that's certainly no guarantee that the MMO rules engine will turn out to be that similar to the real HERO System. But the simple fact that the subject came up and was discussed, tacitly implies to me that Cryptic is interested in at least exploring the possibility of making the game engine (or at least, the front end of the game engine) substantially similar to the HERO System (within the realities of an MMO's needs, I'm sure). If they didn't have any interest in that at all, why bother even bringing it up?

 

Personally, I suspect (and this is just a SWAG on my part) that the final result -- while not identical to the HERO System/Champions -- will be close enough to it that longtime Champions players will easily recognize it as being based on Champions.

 

It would fun and sort of weird for someone like me that started playing back in the day.

 

"My little Hero done growed up an' become a big ol' MMO."

[Catseye]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Ignoring for a moment the question of right to use rules...

 

(see Parker Bros. v. Anti Monpopoly. The upshot is that Copyright with regard to written works only covers text and artwork, not ideas, and rules systems are ideas. Trademark, often misunderstood, only cover your right not to have someone make your customers think they are you.)

 

I'm not upset that they arent using HERO rules. I've just lost any interest in the project. Its like a Champions cartoon to me, and I wouldn't watch that, either.

 

However I think they have made a big mistake in that the rules ARE of core interest to the Champions core audience.... and I'm not sure that they haven't just lost most of not all marketing value to the IP.

[CorPse]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

However I think they have made a big mistake in that the rules ARE of core interest to the Champions core audience.... and I'm not sure that they haven't just lost most of not all marketing value to the IP.

 

Well, there's certainly a lot of interest in COMMO forums... and many of those people seem to be Champs old-timers and people that had stopped playing that are getting lured back in.

[mojo_bones]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

To be honest, I never for one moment thought they would be using Hero rules for character creation. As has been said, there is just no way it could be done. And I as well am still very interested in the MMO and would be considered an "old timer" I guess since I started playing back in the early/mid 80's. I really don't think they will lose that many people do to this. (I think they may have lost more if they tried it actually)

 

Basically what I am saying is "I like your ideas and would be interested in receiving your news letter."

[Rapier]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

For many people' date=' Champions and Hero System are one and the same.[/quote']

 

Funny you say that.

 

You see, for a long time there was no Hero System. It was Champions. The Hero System grew out of Champions.

 

There is still this guy I chat with over email every once and again that refers to things as "Fantasy Champs."

 

It is, what it is. Hero got its start as Supers, the Supers genre is probably THE hardest to represent. I'm saying that it is much easier to make a SuperHero system Fantasy-able than it is to make a Fantasy system SuperHero-albe.

 

The root of Fan is, of course, Fanatic. 'Nough said.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I'm not upset that they arent using HERO rules. I've just lost any interest in the project.

Obviously you're free to do as you like' date=' but isn't it a little early to lose any interest, based on assumptions about a game engine that isn't even close to being done yet? How similar to the HERO rules would it ultimately have to be in order to hold your interest? Would it have to be 100% identical? Or would 95% work? At this point, we don't [b']really[/b] know how similar or dissimilar it will be...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

You see, for a long time there was no Hero System. It was Champions. The Hero System grew out of Champions.

 

There is still this guy I chat with over email every once and again that refers to things as "Fantasy Champs."

Well, let's see. In July, Champions/HERO will have been around for 27 years. In that time, there was Champions-only for 2 years, and the HERO System for 25 years. Yeah, that qualifies for "for a long time there was no Hero System."

 

Seriously, I've always wondered whether people who insist on calling the game system itself "Champions" also apply this inability to adapt to change to the rest of the things in life. Do they still call Nissan cars "Datsuns?"

[Ghostwalker]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

As far as I'm concerned this is a great thing. As many people have pointed out its the Hero System rules that are most important, not the Champions Universe. This will not ruin the game we know and love, instead it will hopefully attract people to the PnP game and increase sales. The rules have not been sold so if the relationship ever becomes strained between the two companies, Hero can just release another superhero genre sourcebook called "Defenders" or something....

 

Also, Steve and Darren and Co. have obviously made some money from the transaction and increased future sales will only help to cement the companies future in the turbulent roleplaying game world...

 

I'm delighted with the bright future this brings and as long as there is never a "Champions D20" I'll be happy...

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Well, let's see. In July, Champions/HERO will have been around for 27 years. In that time, there was Champions-only for 2 years, and the HERO System for 25 years. Yeah, that qualifies for "for a long time there was no Hero System."

 

 

But while there was a "Hero System" it was actually a game engine, rather than a complete game system until 4th.

[archermoo]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Seriously, I've always wondered whether people who insist on calling the game system itself "Champions" also apply this inability to adapt to change to the rest of the things in life. Do they still call Nissan cars "Datsuns?"

 

To some people, yes.

[Spence]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Well, let's see. In July, Champions/HERO will have been around for 27 years. In that time, there was Champions-only for 2 years, and the HERO System for 25 years. Yeah, that qualifies for "for a long time there was no Hero System."

 

Seriously, I've always wondered whether people who insist on calling the game system itself "Champions" also apply this inability to adapt to change to the rest of the things in life. Do they still call Nissan cars "Datsuns?"

 

I think the biggest reason is that it doesn't have anything to do with when Hero System was coined into existence in reality. Most people I talk too never remember the Hero System Rulebook at first, but they always remember the BBB, which was the Rulebook plus the Champions book in one cover billed as Champions: The Super Role-Playing Game. For many people that was the game until Hero put out 5th. It has also welded the two words together for many.

 

Many still call soda's cokes and say "let's take my car" when they drive a pickup or van

[Spence]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

As far as I'm concerned this is a great thing. As many people have pointed out its the Hero System rules that are most important' date=' not the Champions Universe. This will not ruin the game we know and love, instead it will hopefully attract people to the PnP game and increase sales. The rules have not been sold so if the relationship ever becomes strained between the two companies, Hero can just release another superhero genre sourcebook called "Defenders" or something....[/quote']

 

Also, Steve and Darren and Co. have obviously made some money from the transaction and increased future sales will only help to cement the companies future in the turbulent roleplaying game world...

 

can't argue that any of that

 

 

I'm delighted with the bright future this brings and as long as there is never a "Champions D20" I'll be happy...

 

 

Arrrgghhhh!!!! You said the word. Aaaahhhhhh!!! You must immediately perform some kind of appeasement or ritual to ward of the D20 demons....

 

 

Aaahhhhhhh!!!! I said D20

 

 

 

AARRRGGGhhhhhhhhh! I said IT again……aaahhhhhhhh