Jump to content

Conquest


Super Squirrel

Recommended Posts

Re: As I had stated earlier

 

Originally posted by MarkusDark

One source will say light swords, others will say heavy swords. Both are correct. I even have a reference to a Knight bringing a Katana with him on Crusade in the 13th Century.

 

This was one of the reasons I got out of the SCA. Too many dang know it's. I still chuckle over my armor - padded shirt and skirt with 4" square plates riveted to the outside of it. For the first 6 months, I was 'politely' informed at least twice in any event I fought in that I had the plates on the wrong side of my brig. They were meant to be on the inside, not the outside. Then Braveheart came out, with all those English soliders with the plates on the outside of their armor. From then on, it was "Nice Rig!" from even those who corrected me a month before.

 

Sorry if I came off as a know it all. That was not my intent. I just personally have never seen any source indicate that broadswords at any time in history would have weighed 15 lbs. Nor can I come up with a reason why they would weigh that much.

 

And it sounds like you had/have a cool rig. :) Which I would happily have told you before Braveheart came out had I seen it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed, I think we lost the core of the discussion. Specifically apparently on "Conquest" they said that swords could have weighed "up to 15lbs" -- or so I'm told, I never saw that episode.

 

I think we would all agree that is much heavier than the normal weapon. My argument was simply that the statement could be technically correct since I have seen ONE OR TWO actual weapons on that scale.

 

I also definitely am skeptical of the website put out earlier. Someone should check the sources he cites and the formula he uses.

 

As for Nelijal's example, I think you should start with a bar twice as thick if your sword will be wrought iron (as opposed to actual steel). Otherwise you're building a lengthy screwdriver :) I have something of roughly those dimensions I tried to make into a blade back when I was starting blacksmithing, we now use it for opening paint buckets :)

 

If someone just asked me the typical weight for the swords weilded by most combatants in the late middle ages I would say 2-4 pounds.

 

-DG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I don't have the material that he cites as being the sources for the numbers, but I'll point out again that he didn't use any formula to get the numbers. Those are not figured weights from known sizes and densities of materials. Those are the results of weighing actual period weapons that have survived intact (or mostly intact, as one is listed as being an incomplete weapon) to present.

 

And I agree about the average sword weight you list, although I wouldn't limit it to the late middle ages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by DarkGreen

As for Nelijal's example, I think you should start with a bar twice as thick if your sword will be wrought iron (as opposed to actual steel). Otherwise you're building a lengthy screwdriver :) I have something of roughly those dimensions I tried to make into a blade back when I was starting blacksmithing, we now use it for opening paint buckets :)

 

If someone just asked me the typical weight for the swords weilded by most combatants in the late middle ages I would say 2-4 pounds.

 

-DG

My starting point was a bar that would weigh 2.0 lb, which came out to be 2.3mm thick. As for iron vs steel, I would question whether swords of any length were made from iron; Mr. Clements suggests that one of the things that created the mystique (and expense) of the sword was that for such a long blade to be usable, it had to be good quality metal with a good spring temper to avoid bends and breaks. Other weapons (axe blades, spear tips) did not require this. Blade quality varied, of course. I personally cannot say for sure as I was not present at the time.

 

My intention was not to state more than I really know (ahem), but to offer an example to counter to wide notion (everywhere, not this forum) that all weapons and armor of the period were unbearably heavy. Some are fascinated with extremes, the bigger the better, the more interesting the story.

 

Then again, maybe I am just a blowhard. Never been accused of that before. :eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: As I had stated earlier

 

Originally posted by MarkusDark

One source will say light swords, others will say heavy swords. Both are correct. I even have a reference to a Knight bringing a Katana with him on Crusade in the 13th Century.

 

This was one of the reasons I got out of the SCA. Too many dang know it's. I still chuckle over my armor - padded shirt and skirt with 4" square plates riveted to the outside of it. For the first 6 months, I was 'politely' informed at least twice in any event I fought in that I had the plates on the wrong side of my brig. They were meant to be on the inside, not the outside. Then Braveheart came out, with all those English soliders with the plates on the outside of their armor. From then on, it was "Nice Rig!" from even those who corrected me a month before.

 

Could you give me the source on the katana in the crusades? I would find this absolutely fascinating to read about. I teach advanced placement world history and there is always some kid who just wants to talk about military history. In this case, one of the big themes of AP World History, the degree of cultural exchange between civilizations though extremely limited had broad possibilities in incidental contact, could be illustrated with something that most of the kids would find fascinating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Falchions did not weigh 6-8 pounds. More like 3-5 pounds (which is still on the heavy side for a single-handed sword).

 

I saw that episode of Conquest. They were totalling up the weight of a knight's equipment. They were clearly going for a high number, so I think it was implied that all the weights were upper bounds. And the total relevant weight must include all the gear that comes with the sword - e.g., scabbard and belt or baldric. Still, I don't see how that would come to more than 10 pounds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Nelijal

As for iron vs steel, I would question whether swords of any length were made from iron; Mr. Clements suggests that one of the things that created the mystique (and expense) of the sword was that for such a long blade to be usable, it had to be good quality metal with a good spring temper to avoid bends and breaks.

 

Hmm... I am under the impression that even with all the issues of iron it was still a hefty advance over the bronze weapons they were used against. Also I recall hearing theories that "excalibur" was a sword made of steel (possibly meteorite steel) in a world of iron swords. I have an excellent book on the subject but there is a dog asleep on my lap so I can't go get it :(

 

-DG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by DarkGreen

Hmm... I am under the impression that even with all the issues of iron it was still a hefty advance over the bronze weapons they were used against. Also I recall hearing theories that "excalibur" was a sword made of steel (possibly meteorite steel) in a world of iron swords. I have an excellent book on the subject but there is a dog asleep on my lap so I can't go get it :(

 

-DG

I should not have implied that swords were never made of iron. (Mr. Clements quotes instances of sword blades being bent during battle, and the wielder straightening it instead of discarding it--a nod to the value of any sword.) I meant to suggest that advances in metallurgy would have been seen first in swords in order to accommodate longer blades that would not easily bend or break. I do not doubt that bladed weapons were at one time or another made of iron.

 

To keep the right frame of mind, I would also suggest that all our posts on this subject are conjecture. As I have said before, I wasn't there. I enjoy bouncing ideas back and forth as much as the next guy, but it is easy for such debates to degenerate (e.g., the "Speed Chart" thread in the Fantasy Hero forum--a nice thread gone bad).

 

Speaking of that, this thread was originally about the TV show Conquest. Yes, it is an interesting show, but I also would take the info presented with a grain of salt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Re: As I had stated earlier

 

Originally posted by Agent X

Could you give me the source on the katana in the crusades?

 

I saw it in a book a friend showed me about 8 years ago. I have just left a message for him to give me Title, Author, Chapter and possibly page number. Of course he enjoys recreational activities that have been having an adverse effect on his memory so I won't promise anything.

 

But you bring up a perfect point. If you have a source that says swords weighed 15 pounds, give the source name. I don't personally like shows, I prefer the hard books as anyone can go to a good library and look it up. Likewise if you have a source that says that they never weighed more than 7 pounds, that'd be cool too.

 

Oh, BTW, if anyone thought I was implying that they were a 'know-it-all', I wasn't. The argument began to seem a bit like the ones I would witness with SCA people who, for the most part, ARE (IMO). It got so bad that I just agreed with whatever they said. "What? Hitler was skilled in the use of a crossbow? Okey." ((Actually heard it at an SCA event!))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...