Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

[casualplayer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

For what it's worth' date=' I've never had an opportunity to apply a "first appearance" analysis to Rogue, who is one of the most commonly cited examples of a character it is impossible to build on starting points. It's conceivable that her absorbing powers may not have been quite so ultimately crunchy at first. Of course, Rogue is also a prime example of the fact that the rules are different for PCs compared to NPCs, and that the GM can cheat![/quote']

 

Actually Rogue is a good example of a bad example, because her debut was as a high-powered villain who almost single-handedly manhandled the archtypal Avengers in Avengers Annual #10. It's where she got her first taste of Thor and also bushwacked Ms. Marvel.

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Actually Rogue is a good example of a bad example' date=' because her debut was as a high-powered villain who almost single-handedly manhandled the archtypal Avengers in Avengers Annual #10.[/quote']

 

Fair enough then. She was under NPC rules.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Rogue's only really high-powered/expensive because of her environment - the fact that there are so many powerful people for her to get powers off of. One of those things you have to buy up to whatever the highest power level is in the campaign.

 

If the top guns in her world were Fabian Stankowitz and Frog-Man (not Enforcer84's version) she wouldn't be too pricey.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

depends on what the definition of "build" is.

 

you can simulate the JLA on 350 points each,

 

you can simulate Galactus for 500 points...

[nexus]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Sure. Or 150 or less, or 50 or less for uber min-maxers.

 

The New Circle managed tributes to the core Justice Leaguers for 350 (albeit at reduced power level in some cases, but Power Level is only one aspect of a character's Concept). The Five managed tributes to the core Avengers at 350 each. The Young Titans manage tributes to the Teen Titans at 350 each. I've posted several tank smashing 350 point characters, and Socially Conscious Man at 350 points can manage pretty close to Molecule Man / Franklin Richards / Plot Device of the Week effects at least on a planetary level. The real trick isn't "What can you build for X points" so much as "what can you build that's reasonably straightforward to run and fun to play for X points". And then you get people arguing over "reasonably straightforward" and "fun".

 

On the flip side, as Susano discusses in his many great posts on the subject, creating a faithful game version of a long running fictional character will often cost far more points than a slimmed down tribute.

 

Well for those interested in a challenge I started a thread for it

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64673

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

depends on what the definition of "build" is.

 

you can simulate the JLA on 350 points each,

 

you can simulate Galactus for 500 points...

 

Given that neither the JLA nor Galactus actually exists, "simulate" and "build" are synonymous.

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

... real focus that is hard to store ( usually stored like a real several hundred pound suit of armor.) and takes considerable time to put on. One that the player can be removed from but not in combat.

I always thought it was funny that Defender carries his armor around in a briefcase. I barely have room for my scientific calculator.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I always thought it was funny that Defender carries his armor around in a briefcase. I barely have room for my scientific calculator.

 

I always liked the Ultimates version of Iron Man for that reason. He has a whole pit crew and it takes time for him to get in and out of the suit. I also liked the fact that he was always losing parts of the armor in combat and then having to rely on whatever was left functional to finish the fight. I've rarely seen a better fictional example of the focus limitation.

[Diamond_J]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

These are the characters I see as most difficult/controversial when it comes to creating them on 350 (in no particular order):

 

Martian Manhunter (such a vast array of powers attached to a Superman template)

Kilowog (A major brick/gadgeteer plus a Green Lantern ring?)

Rogue (duplicating full powers while maintaining her own flying brick power)

The Invisible Woman (Those IPEs get damned expensive, especially with the already expensive FWs)

Mr. Fantastic (Only when trying to add his vast resources and gadget pool)

Jean Grey Phoenix (Raw power off the scale)

 

I've seen decent homage versions of the following, but they're always, IMO, too underpowered:

 

Thor

Superman

Doctor Strange

Green Lantern (any)

 

I'm also waiting to see a good 350 point Plastic Man.

 

There are a ton of villains I wouldn't even try to scale to 350, but since they're NPCs I don't think it really matters.[/quote

 

I don't know, Fire wing is basically Phoenix. They say she can do anything but the character is mostly just a pyrochenetic/Telekinetic. Doing Thor justice is hard and I 've tried. His god blast was 450 active points how do you fit that into a framework with other abilities. GOD BLAST: 8D6 RKA AVLD (+1 3/4) (VS Power defense), Does BODY +1, x2 END COST (-1/2), side effect (Thor takes 4D6 RKA AVLD, -1/2). He can kill celestials with this attack. Sentry was actually a whole lot easier.

[Vondy]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Doing Thor justice is hard and I 've tried. His god blast was 450 active points how do you fit that into a framework with other abilities. GOD BLAST: 8D6 RKA AVLD (+1 3/4) (VS Power defense)' date=' Does BODY +1, x2 END COST (-1/2), side effect (Thor takes 4D6 RKA AVLD, -1/2). He can kill celestials with this attack. Sentry was actually a whole lot easier.[/quote']

 

This is a style issue, to be sure, but when I do homage builds I don't include the writer's fiat powers. They tend to be once - or once in a blue moon - on the radar and tend to be more about how much coffee the writer was jonesiing on and how lazy his creative muse was getting than what was best for the story, continuity, or character. For instance, when I build superman, I ignore that some yahoo in the 70's had him able to lift the sun. Another thing I take into account is context. Am I building Batman in his own comics, or Batman in the JLA. Its essentially two different characters. The same might be true of characters who occasionally operate on a cosmic scale as well. You might need to differentiate between Thor and Cosmic Thor.

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Thor is yet another example of the Starting Points for Starting Characters approach.

 

Read his first few appearances back in the early Sixties, and model him based on that.

 

Celestials weren't even a twinkle in Jack Kirby's eye back then.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

These are the characters I see as most difficult/controversial when it comes to creating them on 350 (in no particular order):

 

Rogue (duplicating full powers while maintaining her own flying brick power)

 

 

Duplicating somebody else's powers is an order N problem in that in order to copy the powers of a N point hero, it takes roughly N points, plus some extras, minus some limitations, or roughly N points.

 

That's fairly simple.

 

The hard part is shutting them down for the duration, because, IIRC, anyone who Rogue is copying is essentially inert for a considerable time period.

 

This is insanely expensive, because shutting down an N point superpowered individual is, well, prohibitively expensive for large values of N.

 

Which is the same problem that comes up when you try to stat out Jericho from the Teen Titans. (turned insubstantial, jumped into your body and took it over) Cheap power for a campaign full of nothing but normals. Insanely expensive for a campaign full of gods. Not something you'll see written up for 350 points.

 

Which brings up my previous candidate: Hiro Nakamura/Kirby Winter

 

Kirby is cheap to write up because he encounters normals. Hiro is vastly more expensive because he encounters paranormals. An equivalent in an established campaign (think Avengers) would be infinitely more expensive than that. Such a character has to shut down an effectively infinite number of people of nearly limitless power while he takes any number of consecutive actions.

 

It is at this point where the game system surrenders to hand waving.

[OddHat]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Building Thor the Marvel Character falls under Susano's rules of modeling long running fictional characters. Point totals can't be an issue.

 

A 350 point thunder god, useful in a 350 point campaign? Flying brick with some weather control and most of his powers OIHID? Sure, dead easy.

 

As to Hiro Nakamura, a Time Stopper on 350 point, about as effective as other 350 point characters, isn't a stretch. Just be creative in describing SFX. Or let him use the more generous interpretations of EDM and Enter the Speed Zone presented in Ultimate Speedster, and his power becomes an I Win button for the average gamer.