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The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...


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...to me, is not:

1. Magic is real and talented people can learn how to wield it.

2. The existence of other-dimensional entities (some of them calling themselves gods, possibly including those of monotheistic faiths) is real, and known to a large number of people.

3. Superhumans exist, in the hundreds, thousands, even tens of thousands and many of them are capable of defeating powerful military hardware with ease.

4. Supervillains exist, and many of them engage in fairly mundane criminal activity such as bank robbery.

5. Supertech exists, and in some cases may be up to hundreds of years more advanced than real-world 2008 tech.

6. Extraterrestrials(and sometimes other terrestrial sentient races) exist, are often physically or mentally superior to humans, are almost always technologically and militarily far superior, are often hostile and sometimes friendly, have not-infrequent contact with humanity, and in most instances their existence is known to the general public.

7. Psionic powers exist and there are many people capable of reading and controlling minds, but no widespread safeguards exist.

8. There is a small but very real possibility that one may have a mutant child who will develop some major paranormal ability.

9. The laws of physics are bent and broken routinely, up to and including time travel, creating matter from nothingness, resurrecting the dead, skyscraper sized monsters stomping around, altering reality, etc.

10. It's possible for a human to train themselves to near-superhuman levels and compete with superhumans in combat.

 

No, none of these is the most unbelievable to me. To me, the most unbelievable trope is:

A. That none of the above has much actual impact or effect on the life/lifestyle/day to day existence of the average human being, even those in paranormal-rich environments.

 

Questions:

For those who consider this trope necessary or useful, why is it so, and to what extent?

For those who have fully or partially discarded this trope, how has doing so altered society in your campaign setting?

 

I'll post my own answers and speculations later, but I just had this on my mind today, and wanted to get a lively discussion going.:D

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

In my mind it's actually quite simple. The more those impact their world, the less it resembles our world. The less it resembles our world, the less the reader can identify and sympathize with it.

 

For a lot of science fiction this is not only acceptable, it's necessary. For super heroes, we want them to be a part of our world. Even Astro City and Top Ten, which have great stories in alternate super-worlds, don't resemble our world enough to draw us in.* Spider-Man draws us in. He is probably the ultimate sympathetic character and a huge part of that is the fact that he lives in 'our' world.

 

If Reed Richards and Doctor Doom solve the world's problems, what then? Would the FF work better in a sort of scientific paradise? Personally, I don't think so. I'll read Tom Strong for that. I want the FF in New York.

 

 

 

 

 

*Generally. I'm not speaking for all readers; of course there are exceptions.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

Questions:

For those who consider this trope necessary or useful, why is it so, and to what extent?

For those who have fully or partially discarded this trope, how has doing so altered society in your campaign setting?

 

I'll post my own answers and speculations later, but I just had this on my mind today, and wanted to get a lively discussion going.:D

 

It keeps the setting recognizable and relevant to reader, particularly those that are reading for light entertainment not a deep exploration of high concepts like transhumanism, the social impact of technology and other expansive questions that might make for a fascinating novel but would be, one difficult to adequately cover in a thin brightly colored book and secondly could detract from the rest of the genre. You'd have to spend a great deal of time explaining this new world (which could be very alien to the real one) and probably change the tone of the stories told.

 

This trope can be dealt with in a number of ways though that aren't either extreme. Some settings have: Aberrant and Gestalt Earth have for example. Limited origin settings seem to make it easier to deal than the "anything goes" comic setting. I do feel that the trope has to be handwaved to some extent or you end up with a setting that not only doesn't resemble the real world at all but doesn't resemble the comic book genre. Depending on the audience that might not be a problem but you end up with what amounts to a gonzo fantasy or sci fi setting rather than a superhero comic book setting.

 

Take the Rifts setting, for example. It has all the above tropes but it is definitely not a comic book setting. A fun setting, IMO, but not a "superhero comic". A well thought out setting extrapolated from a "full on comic book setting" with all the "Logical" consequences could make a really fascinating series but it wouldn't be a "superhero comic".

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

In my mind it's actually quite simple. The more those impact their world, the less it resembles our world. The less it resembles our world, the less the reader can identify and sympathize with it.

 

For a lot of science fiction this is not only acceptable, it's necessary. For super heroes, we want them to be a part of our world. Even Astro City and Top Ten, which have great stories in alternate super-worlds, don't resemble our world enough to draw us in.* Spider-Man draws us in. He is probably the ultimate sympathetic character and a huge part of that is the fact that he lives in 'our' world.

 

If Reed Richards and Doctor Doom solve the world's problems, what then? Would the FF work better in a sort of scientific paradise? Personally, I don't think so. I'll read Tom Strong for that. I want the FF in New York.

 

 

 

 

 

*Generally. I'm not speaking for all readers; of course there are exceptions.

 

Well, that covers it better than I could. Sometimes it can be fun to work out WHY these things don't have a bigger effect in your setting, there might even be plots to be developed in it, but mostly it's a metagame necessity.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

No, none of these is the most unbelievable to me. To me, the most unbelievable trope is:

A. That none of the above has much actual impact or effect on the life/lifestyle/day to day existence of the average human being, even those in paranormal-rich environments.

 

This was actually covered in Aaron Allston's Strike Force book concerning the technology aspect. And a good idea it was as well.

 

And when I saw the thread originally I read it as 'The most Unbelievable Trollop in the Superhero Genre' which is something else entirely.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

I would point out that one key difference between comic books and RPGs is that the players are actually playing the heroes(not just reading about them), and I think this has some impact on "relatability" --i.e., I don't think the necessity of keeping the "mundane" world as close to ours as possible is as great, because the players are already invested in their characters.

 

Another thing is that, in a long term campaign, a lot of players are going to want to feel that they're having an impact in the world and making a positive difference, not just maintaining some status quo equilibrium between good and evil. If technology, magic and superpowers have no net impact, for good or ill, on ordinary life, tech, medicine, crime, science, it's hard for players to see how they are having a positive impact on the setting.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

 

Another thing is that, in a long term campaign, a lot of players are going to want to feel that they're having an impact in the world and making a positive difference, not just maintaining some status quo equilibrium between good and evil. If technology, magic and superpowers have no net impact, for good or ill, on ordinary life, tech, medicine, crime, science, it's hard for players to see how they are having a positive impact on the setting.

 

This one is a fair complaint that I can agree with. I've seen it souring the game for many campaigns of more than one genre. In my D&D settings, I let the players pour lots of gold into the local economy. They've turned towns into thriving cities over time for example. In Champions, while I admit, few of advancements of supertech and magic leak out to the public, the charity work and side projects of heroes often makes a big difference. Bricks destroy slums and help rebuild new homes using their massive might, while speedsters make the job quicker for example. Rich heroes donate to charity, and surprise, actually do improve some situations. Perhaps the area that I do let the heroes influence most by their actions (Both crime fighting and side interests in costume) is public opinion and politics. In my world, the collective NPCs that have been saved time and time again are grateful... in that respect, it's kind of the anti Marvel ;)

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

In one of my favorite campaigns, Tex Jones, "The Great White Hunter" (not his character's name -- I forgot what it really was) and American Steel pooled their resources and bought American Bantam (AB). American Steel was an engineer from a late 20th century parallel world and helped design a couple of "futuristic" cars for AB to build (one full-sized and one compact). Both were rear-engined (we had recently watched Tucker: The Man and His Dream*) air-cooled and were chock full of active and passive safety innovations. During one game session, we even decided that one print ad would depict a chauffer-driven limousine being passed by an AB Sedan. Both the chauffer and his passenger looked wistfully at the passing car. Eventually, a version of the compact car won the competition to become the U.S. Army's "Jeep".

 

The PCs ought to be allowed to make a difference in ways they find satisfying. That helps them have more fun in the campaign and ensures they'll keep showing up. Besides, it's more fun that way.

 

*Tucker Torpedo

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

I would point out that one key difference between comic books and RPGs is that the players are actually playing the heroes(not just reading about them), and I think this has some impact on "relatability" --i.e., I don't think the necessity of keeping the "mundane" world as close to ours as possible is as great, because the players are already invested in their characters.

 

Another thing is that, in a long term campaign, a lot of players are going to want to feel that they're having an impact in the world and making a positive difference, not just maintaining some status quo equilibrium between good and evil. If technology, magic and superpowers have no net impact, for good or ill, on ordinary life, tech, medicine, crime, science, it's hard for players to see how they are having a positive impact on the setting.

 

I disagree here actually. Characters can have impact on the setting in cultural, social and political ways without instituting a network of teleportation booths or easy AI. Lower crime rates, helping house problems, saving lives and campaigning (and succeeding) for change are impacts that don't render the world unrecognizable.

 

Honestly I haven't run into any players were "rewriting the world" was an issue. They wanted to fight the bad guys and have some soap opera in a comi book world not see things turn into Transhuman Space and that's been in campaigns that have run for years. Major villains that are defeated stay defeated for a long time, people and institution you've helped are actually grateful (or seek to manipulate you for their ends...), the character's reuptations and deeds matter. I've found continuity and a sense of change and impact matter more than "changing the world" as it seems to be defined here.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

I would point out that one key difference between comic books and RPGs is that the players are actually playing the heroes(not just reading about them), and I think this has some impact on "relatability" --i.e., I don't think the necessity of keeping the "mundane" world as close to ours as possible is as great, because the players are already invested in their characters.

 

Another thing is that, in a long term campaign, a lot of players are going to want to feel that they're having an impact in the world and making a positive difference, not just maintaining some status quo equilibrium between good and evil. If technology, magic and superpowers have no net impact, for good or ill, on ordinary life, tech, medicine, crime, science, it's hard for players to see how they are having a positive impact on the setting.

 

Its a fair assessment, but it may be a player issue more than a genre issue. It may be that the players really want to be playing in a speculative fiction game with super-powers. What I mean by that is this: one of the major themes of science fiction is how technology impacts and changes soceity and the world. In our case, superpowers are the technology. In comics, that's not one of the major themes. How those powers impact the individual, and to some extent how those powers can be used as a jumping off point for allegorical handling of contemporary issues (racism, power, etc), is more where the comic genre lives. Comic books are teledramas with shtick more than they are speculative fiction. Some players understand and want that; others want the game to be more speculative fiction oriented and to see how their character's via their abilities change the world. Both are valid, but one is the traditional superheroic approach, the other is the science fiction approach. You have to talk to players about which genre they want to play [and think they're playing] before telling your tale.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

Its a fair assessment' date=' but it may be a player issue more than a genre issue. It may be that the players really want to be playing in a speculative fiction game with super-powers. What I mean by that is this: one of the major themes of science fiction is how technology impacts and changes society and the world. In our case, superpowers are the technology. In comics, that's not one of the major themes. How those powers impact the individual, and to some extent how those powers can be used as a jumping off point for allegorical handling of contemporary issues (racism, power, etc), is more where the comic genre lives. Comic books are teledramas with shtick more than they are speculative fiction. Some players understand and want that; others want the game to be more speculative fiction oriented and to see how their character's via their abilities change the world. Both are valid, but one is the traditional superheroic approach, the other is the science fiction approach. You have to talk to players about which genre they want to play [and think they're playing'] before telling your tale.

 

I think Von D-man said it better than I did.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

Well' date=' that covers it better than I could. Sometimes it can be fun to work out WHY these things don't have a bigger effect in your setting, there might even be plots to be developed in it, but mostly it's a metagame necessity.[/quote']

 

This is probably the best response.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

I think in some cases you could probably, as a GM, split the difference between the two. No FTL drive or immortality vaccine, but (to use a whimsical example) a lot of people drive flying cars to work, TVs in superworld are far superior to the ones we have here, and there's some really fracking big orbital space stations out there. The military has mecha, blasters and a few prototype powered battlesuits.

If there's actual "gods" running around, then some of them are going to develop a following.

Some supervillains will pursue more esoteric kinds of crimes. A mind controller might start his own talent agency, for example.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

Many gms, settings and even comics do split the difference. There is allot of room between "Totally unchanged from the real world except for people in funny outfits" and "so completely changed that it bears no resemblance to the real worldl." Gestalt Earth and Aberrant have slight increases across the board in technology and major advancements in specific areas with some others being deliberately suppressed by supers and other organizations.

 

Speaking of my own campaigns, I've had "Gods" try to start cults or have them form. There is some technology that's more advanced and major militaries have "advanced" weaponry (thought with technology there is a fine line. If you make advanced tech mass producible it takes some of the luster from high tech supers). It varies according to the mood I want to convey. One thing is if you're going to allow for major world altering changing in society and technology is that unless your PCs are the first or among the first superhumans then the world should logically be very different already to a degree proportional to how long superhuman influences have been in existence.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

Some supervillains will pursue more esoteric kinds of crimes. A mind controller might start his own talent agency, for example.

 

One neat example I really like from Gestalt is a Mind Controlling character that's opened a website that offers the opportunity to experience Mind Control. There is a clear warning that it will cost 10 USD every time the "I accept" button is clicked. When it is, the person is compelled to send the site owner 10 bucks. He can't be convicted of any thing since he's made it clear what will happen.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

No, none of these is the most unbelievable to me. To me, the most unbelievable trope is:

A. That none of the above has much actual impact or effect on the life/lifestyle/day to day existence of the average human being, even those in paranormal-rich environments.

 

Questions:

For those who consider this trope necessary or useful, why is it so, and to what extent?

For those who have fully or partially discarded this trope, how has doing so altered society in your campaign setting?

 

Simply put, if superhumans (or superscience or supermagic) solved the world's problems of hunger, disease, poverty, and hatred ... there would be no crime in the world, which would mean no reason for the supers to do anything, and no game to run/no book to print because the conflict required for plotlines no longer exists.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

And to be honest, another motivation is laziness. Creating a full blown fantasy world or alternate history is allot of work and writers for a monthly title or GMs for a weekly game might not want to invest that much effort into it. Setting a game in the Modern World (with possibly some minor changes and additions) is easier than extrapolating the impact of super science, magic and mutations on the world. Not a high minded reason but a valid one, IMO.

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Re: The most unbelievable trope in the superhero genre...

 

Simply put' date=' if superhumans (or superscience or supermagic) solved the world's problems of hunger, disease, poverty, and hatred ... there would be no crime in the world, which would mean no reason for the supers to do anything, and no game to run/no book to print because the conflict required for plotlines no longer exists.[/quote']

 

At least half the villains in comic books are some flavor of crazy, though. I don't think they'd stop committing crimes just because they didn't need/want money. I think criminality relates more to poverty and hatred than to hunger and disease. I could see a world without hunger and disease where many people are still relatively poor, and where hatred still exists.

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