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So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?


Mencelus
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Inspiried by a similar thread about GURPS over on the GURPS boards -

 

What burns you about HERO? I know we've a new edition coming but that's some time away and many people (like me) are thinking of running HERO for the first time and are curious about the pitfalls and so on with it. While I've played before, I've never actually run it, though I've thought on it several times, and I waffle back to HERO now and then, and think new thoughts.

 

I'm also not in the land of extra cash so the chance of me getting the new edition when it comes out is not high. So, I'm "stuck" with 5th for at least the next two years or so.

 

So, yeah, what's not to like? What churns your butter? I'll start.

 

I dislike measuring ranges in inches. I know I can convert, blah blah, but I hate it anyway. I run Savage Worlds now and it does the same thing and I hate it there too.

 

You?

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Regeneration and Instant Change being removed and turned into complex, rule-bending or breaking builds.

 

The attempt to stop people from using Growth to represent large things, etc.

 

Making Damage Shield so expensive it's all but useless.

 

The "three aspects" concept of transformation that makes a total transform grotesquely expensive, insanely so.

 

Requiring vs ECV on mental transforms.

 

There are a couple of minor things like this, nothing that really hurts the game. Overall 5th edition was very well done and house rules fix the minor problems.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I disliked the changes to Regeneration' date=' Damage Shield and Instant Change, so I run earlier editions versions.[/quote']Those were exactly the same things I didn't like about 5th Edition.

 

OTOH, Megascale and the improvements to Change Environment more than made up for it. :)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Those were exactly the same things I didn't like about 5th Edition.

 

OTOH, Megascale and the improvements to Change Environment more than made up for it. :)

 

The thing is' date=' the stuff that 5th edition changed was 99% great and 1% yuck, but the yuck was easily ignored or changed without harm to the system and the overall edition. That's the pattern 6th has to follow or fail.[/quote']

 

I agree completely. 5th is amazingly good. I can't expect to have every single detail of a ruleset match exactly what I want (unless I wrote it), but the differences were small, and easily adjusted.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Things is, I never played earlier versions, so I can't hate feel anything about them, yeah?

 

Just wondering what folks felt. No game is perfect - I got started because I saw some interesting holes in Savage Worlds this weekend when we played. Nothing that'll make me stop the game, mind you, but it'd be nice to know what folks thought since, with a touch of luck, I'll get my group to give HERO a try in a few months, maybe over the summer, since I'll be a little freer.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Not much.

 

I disliked the changes to Regeneration, Damage Shield and Instant Change, so I run earlier editions versions. There are a few little things, but to be honest, nothing in the core gameplay.

 

Add to those the changes to Life Support, making it overly detailed. At the same time, not adding more Skills, refusing to add a little detail where needed.

 

Still nothing major, and a lot of positive changes were made too.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Like most

 

Damage Shield

Regeneration

& INstant Change

No partialy limited Power Pools (Sorry, I can thing of ALOT of good builds)

What happens with variable limitations and foci...

 

I think there are a few other minor things, and a ton of I will do it differently, but that is normal, those three are the "Biggies".

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Ah... I run it RAW, so I have almost zero complaints. And the system is built so that what you don't like, you can change easily enough. So I'd say other than the occasional brain fry moment where I have trouble grasping something, nothing.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I'm really trying to find something I don't like about HERO 5th.....

 

The book is too large to be easily portable. ;)

 

I personally didn't find anything to really dislike. I see area that are more easy to abuse, but that just means I have to check and double check concepts a little better.

 

On the other hand, the Environmental Rules were a great addition over previous editions. A few other things made the whole edition a really Grade A product. I wonder if the 6th Edition is going to really be able to improve upon existing greatness.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

R

 

The attempt to stop people from using Growth to represent large things, etc.

 

Making Damage Shield so expensive it's all but useless.

 

There are a couple of minor things like this, nothing that really hurts the game. Overall 5th edition was very well done and house rules fix the minor problems.

 

 

What he said with the exclusions I took.:D

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The book is too large to be easily portable.

 

Yeah that is a drawback, although I guess the sidekick is pretty small and portable and has everything you really need in a pinch.

 

I wonder if the 6th Edition is going to really be able to improve upon existing greatness.

 

Yeah, Chris Goodwin I think it was noted that Steve has set himself up for a really tough job, following up on that.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Knockback.

 

Can't stand it.

 

Great for the comic book genre, so you'd never be able to convince me to stop using it though.

Go figure.

 

I thought knockback was specific to the super-heroic genre and that heroic games used knockdown instead.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I thought knockback was specific to the super-heroic genre and that heroic games used knockdown instead.

 

They do.

 

I can't stand it in the Superhero genre either. It just fits.

I mean, if you're gonna play the genre - Play The Genre.

 

ok, honestly, I don't like Superhero's at all. But half the groups I know play it and I like hanging out and gaming with them, so, I get into it. Just not my first choice in genres. I game to hang out with people, not roll dice, so I'm really flexible on the genre preference thing.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

In my extensive experience, the things that bother me / don't seem right are always very esoteric / edge case scenarios where two or more "grey areas" bump up against one another and illogical stuff seeps in along the seams, and / or cases where players are trying to do something that no sane person could ever have predicted and written rules for. And thanks the to the compendious nature of the rules these outcomes are rare...maybe one every 3 to 5 serious sessions.

 

 

The thing I don't like about 5th is when there are FAQ / Rules Rulings that directly contradict / fly in the face of / lack consistency with other parts of the system either in spirit or letter.

 

As a for instance, the last one that came up that really irritated me is that if someone successfully Dives For Cover against someone performing a multiple move by / thru or sweep then the attacker is considered to have missed (thus ending their attack chain) even if they made their attack roll and otherwise would have hit if not for the D4C. This is entirely illogical to me and ruined a big boss fight once a rules-lawyer player discovered and exploited this. As the big boss was a speedster type character designed around multiple attack sequences in order to singlehandedly tie up a group of 8 heroes, this revelation basically nerfed the encounter. The FAQ entry even notes that it "may not always be entirely “logical""

 

I was very displeased. :mad:

 

 

There are some Combat Maneuvers involving multiple attacks/hits in which if one attack misses, all subsequent attacks in that sequence miss.

 

1. If the attack is Blocked, does that count as a “miss” which ends the sequence of attacks?

2. If the attack misses in whole or in part because the target Dodges, does that count as a “miss” which ends the sequence of attacks?

3. If the attack misses due to the target Diving for Cover, does that count as a “miss” which ends the sequence of attacks?

 

Blocking a single attack that’s part of a Sweep, Multiple Move By, or the like, whether used against a single target or multiple targets, does not count as a “miss” for purposes of ending the sequence of attacks. If a single attack that’s part of a Sweep, Multiple Move By, or the like misses due to the target Dodging or Diving For Cover, that counts as a miss and ends the sequence of attacks.

 

If the attack is an Area Of Effect or Explosion, and it hits the target area but the targeted character avoids the effects due to Dive For Cover, that also counts as a “miss” and ends the sequence of attacks. That may not always be entirely “logical,” but it avoids debate and keeps the game moving.

 

 

 

Yeah..by and large the ever growing and sometimes inconsistent FAQ is really my main source of irritation w/ the game -- players have "ambushed" me w/ an obscure and contrary FAQ entry during game play on a number of occasions, forcing me to either be authoritarian and just say "too bad -- we'll talk after the game" or let it fly and generally dilute or ruin some or all of the encounter at had.

 

 

However, such things are easily ignored if they bother me enough.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

They do.

 

I can't stand it in the Superhero genre either. It just fits.

I mean, if you're gonna play the genre - Play The Genre.

 

ok, honestly, I don't like Superhero's at all. But half the groups I know play it and I like hanging out and gaming with them, so, I get into it. Just not my first choice in genres. I game to hang out with people, not roll dice, so I'm really flexible on the genre preference thing.

 

 

I like the street level superheroic genre (batman, nightwing, daredevil, the question, etc), but that genre tends to lend itself to darker themes, and really runs like pre-comic code hardboiled pulps with a few comic tropes tacked onto them - and runs fine without knockback. I don't like the real "superheroes," as much. A few of them have good stories, but overall, I like more down to earth games. And yeah, me to: gaming is as much a social activity as it is about the game, so I grin and bear it when the genre is one I don't care for.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I have to agree with Killer Shrike on the FAQ vs. RAW issues that have been caused over the years. I will note that in the example given, DFC causing misses was very contradictory, and only talking about AE or Explosion attacks.

 

If the attack is an Area Of Effect or Explosion, and it hits the target area but the targeted character avoids the effects due to Dive For Cover

To me, the contradictory point is "hits the target area but the targeted character avoids...". In fact, to me, the target is then the hex, not any single character. Thus, you have hit the target, and whether anyone in the targeted area is still in there is moot.

 

DFC notwithstanding, my least favorite FAQ ruling is over Flying Dodge. Other than DFC, this is the only way to abort to a movement power. Unlike DFC, it is the perfect defense against a single attacker, as you can always be out of range of an attack. I don't believe this was the intent when the maneuver was originally written, but...

 

So, I have house ruled that the attack lands before the movement... and all is right in the world again.

 

As for Instant Change, I am not so upset about it being gone. In fact, I wouldn't even worry about it in a superhero game... time to change from one "outfit" to another has never been an issue in my games.

 

Regeneration, yeah... that's a wonky build. If it were built "correctly" (which can be done now with the 5ER "Trigger" and "Decreased Re-use Duration", it could be properly built, I think, and not have the issues. Could it be done as a standalone power? Sure, but I think a more proper build using healing would be sufficient, one that doesn't require a lot of extra stuff (like the special time lims)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I have to agree with Killer Shrike on the FAQ vs. RAW issues that have been caused over the years. I will note that in the example given, DFC causing misses was very contradictory, and only talking about AE or Explosion attacks.

 

 

To me, the contradictory point is "hits the target area but the targeted character avoids...". In fact, to me, the target is then the hex, not any single character. Thus, you have hit the target, and whether anyone in the targeted area is still in there is moot.

 

DFC notwithstanding, my least favorite FAQ ruling is over Flying Dodge. Other than DFC, this is the only way to abort to a movement power. Unlike DFC, it is the perfect defense against a single attacker, as you can always be out of range of an attack. I don't believe this was the intent when the maneuver was originally written, but...

 

So, I have house ruled that the attack lands before the movement... and all is right in the world again.

 

As for Instant Change, I am not so upset about it being gone. In fact, I wouldn't even worry about it in a superhero game... time to change from one "outfit" to another has never been an issue in my games.

 

Regeneration, yeah... that's a wonky build. If it were built "correctly" (which can be done now with the 5ER "Trigger" and "Decreased Re-use Duration", it could be properly built, I think, and not have the issues. Could it be done as a standalone power? Sure, but I think a more proper build using healing would be sufficient, one that doesn't require a lot of extra stuff (like the special time lims)

 

I don't allow aborting to FMove...You can abort to a FMove manuever, just not use the element

 

So if you abort to flying dodge you get +4 DCV, but you do not get to move

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I don't allow aborting to FMove...You can abort to a FMove manuever, just not use the element

 

So if you abort to flying dodge you get +4 DCV, but you do not get to move

 

It should be noted that Flying Dodge isn't as "strong" as D4C in some ways as it doesn't result in an auto-miss; if the opponent manages to hit the character (with the +4 DCV bonus factored in) then they do actually hit regardless of the outcome of the FMOVE element.

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