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So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?


Mencelus

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Regeneration, Instant Change, Damage Shield, Images to make light instead of Change Environment, Classes of Minds making you immune to mental powers from a different class, Aid being zero END.

 

While I liked the three aspects for Transform (either Physical, Mental, or Spiritual/Essence), I wasn't fully pleased with the methodology used to determine the Spiritual/Essence Transform, as there was no seperate Characteristic to compare it to, making it the odd-man-out from the other two (IIRC).

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

In agreement with previous posters:

 

  • Damage Shield
  • Instant Change
  • Regeneration

Also:

 

  • Positive modifiers being prohibited for Change Environment (there are some cool power builds that would become much easier if this restriction was removed).
  • Always On limitation not allowed for Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase (this just seems weird in my opinion since there's no particularly obvious reason for this restriction).
  • Force Walls only stopping 1 stun per defence when an attack breaks through them (this can result in very illogical body/stun ratios getting through).

These are all very easy to house rule around. The vast majority of the changes in 5th edition are improvements.

 

When it comes to using Images to make light instead of Change Environment I think I can see the reasoning behind this. The Change Environment power affects an area. The environment only changes within that area. The Images power on the other hand affects everything in Line of Sight of the image. Strictly speaking, by the rules, light created by Change Environment cannot illuminate for the purpose of reading a newspaper that is outside the area of effect of the power, whereas light created by Images, being effective in Line of Sight, can.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Always On for Growth etc. I think the reason this was abrogated in 5th Edition is because buying each sub-power separately also allows for Physical Limitations to be bought to reflect the negative aspects of always being big, small or heavy.

 

It is one of those things that is easily reverted to, though HERO Designer makes it somewhat problematic.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

[*]Always On limitation not allowed for Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase (this just seems weird in my opinion since there's no particularly obvious reason for this restriction).

 

The problems with figured characteristics I'm sure was one of them.

 

This was a change I really liked actually.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

It should be noted that Flying Dodge isn't as "strong" as D4C in some ways as it doesn't result in an auto-miss; if the opponent manages to hit the character (with the +4 DCV bonus factored in) then they do actually hit regardless of the outcome of the FMOVE element.

 

Does Flying Dodge work like “Martial Dive For Cover”?

 

No. Flying Dodge functions differently — it doesn’t require a DEX Roll, render a character “prone,” or the like.

If a character with Flying Dodge moves out of the way of an area-affecting attack, compare the inches moved to where the attack hits (typically the hex the character was formerly standing in) and the attack’s size — it’s possible that, as with a Dive For Cover, the character’s movement didn’t carry him far enough to get out of the way. If the Flying Dodge’s movement carries him beyond the area covered by the Area Of Effect/Explosion, then the attack doesn’t affect him.

If a character uses Flying Dodge to try to avoid a ranged non-area-affecting attack, he still gets to move and still gets a DCV bonus from the maneuver, but he’s not automatically missed — the attacker still gets a roll to hit (unlike with Dive For Cover, where the attack would automatically miss). If it’s a HTH attack, the Attack Roll is irrelevant, since the character won’t be in HTH combat range any longer.

 

 

It seems that this has changed, from the last time I read it. I may update my house rules... but I have also, in the past, gone the way you do, JmOz.

 

 

Have to do more thinking... ow!

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The problems with figured characteristics I'm sure was one of them.

 

This was a change I really liked actually.

 

I also liked the change.

 

However, I would probably like to see this go one level further... to have an attribute of "Size", much like vehicles have. One of the problem with creating a smaller character, for example, is that the DCV bonus that a smaller target should have has to be bought as levels with DCV... and by definition, levels are not persistent. Now, I suppose you could buy the levels with DCV as Persistant, Always On, Inherent, but that gets a little silly, and expensive.

 

So, I'd say that HERO could do a better job dealing with differences in character size... but this is definitely not a "deal breaker"... and one that I can easily "hand wave".:celebrate

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The system seems optimized for the superhero genre. Playing genres with skilled normals or moderately enhanced normals suffers from this.

 

The Speed system is too granular at the low end, exactly where small differences should be available for exploitation. At all levels, the deterministic nature of the Speed Chart leads to combats between characters of different SPD being dominated by metagaming concerns: who goes in what phase and what can/can't happen because of that. It's not quite as bad as the old Fantasy Trip system was, where you computed the numbers, played out the moves, and the guy with the highest Dex got declared the winner, but it is close. There are house rules to introduce a nondeterministic element into "who goes when" without negating the benefits paid for with higher SPD, but those are not part of the core system.

 

The mechanics for taunting or tricking an opponent in combat are either scanty add-ons, or end up being Powers so costly as to be unavailable outside the supers regime and require special GM permission to boot. The Presence Attack, while nice to have, is a VERY blunt tool. There's more to combat morale and "messing with the opponent's head" than just blasting through a wall, smiling beatifically, and laying down some schmaltzy Saturday-morning toon smacktalk, but the PRE Attack mechanics aren't geared to more than that.

 

At all levels, the system tends to make characters in the "eggshells armed with hammers" corner: defenses are more expensive than attacks. Combats tend to be very brief and very high casualties, and about the time you've taken enough damage to think about withdrawing you're knocked out. This is realistic in some ways, but makes it hard to mimic "cinematic" combats where the enemy flees rather than gets reduced to broken inert bodies.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I dislike that HERO has become a very, very complex game, even though it comes from a very simple, effective system. Too many exceptions, too many special cases, too much stuff to keep track of...

 

And I also dislike that because HERO generally can do anything, in its own way, creativity from its gamers always seems to be limited to these ways.

 

HERO is still by far my favorite system. I'd just really like it to be stream-lined, and I'd like for certain elements to become simplier and more open ended (power creation being a big one).

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

At all levels, the system tends to make characters in the "eggshells armed with hammers" corner: defenses are more expensive than attacks.

 

I cannot see how this can be possibly true at any level. I pay 5 points per damage class of an attack and 1 point per point of defense. I can ignore a 12D6 energy blast for far less than 60 points of defenses.

 

I dislike that HERO has become a very, very complex game, even though it comes from a very simple, effective system. Too many acceptions, too many special cases, too much stuff to keep track of...

 

I agree in a sense, but I'm not sure how you could do it. There could be at least an optional version at three levels: the first level the most stripped down, easy and basic version of the rules (with few advantages and combat modifiers, etc), the second the game as is, and the third the game with all optional rules and maximum complexity.

 

It probably wouldn't hurt to at least describe how to do this at some point in the rules.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I cannot see how this can be possibly true at any level. I pay 5 points per damage class of an attack and 1 point per point of defense. I can ignore a 12D6 energy blast for far less than 60 points of defenses.

 

That's true ... if you know what kind of attack is coming, and you can tailor your defenses to that. There are enough varieties of attack that you can't defend against all of them; in fact, you really can't expect to defend yourself against more than one or two. So, of course, you end up facing one you can't deal with.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

OK It's more expensive to buy every single defense to maximum levels than it is to buy one attack. However, it's even more expensive to buy every single attack so you can avoid the defenses you might encounter.

 

I am not sure what you're hoping for: mister invulnerable who laughs at all possible attacks?

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I don't care for the implicit favoritism shown toward the Gunbunny archetype, whether the truly exhaustive array of Skill stunts available to the triggerhappy to the equipment doubling rule that turns a Focus Limitation into an advantage. Too much Dark Champions seeped into the main system IMO.

 

Also an author's affection for hardware has led to military weapons and vehicles to be ratcheted up to the point where a 350 pt hero is no match for a tank crewed by normals or a squad of Navy SEALs. Again too much DC in my HERO.

 

The ubiquitousness of resistant DEF has led to increased Damage Classes which has led to more rDEF and so on and so on. Typical RPG arms race and heaven help you if you bring a cerebral character to a knife fight.

 

I like a lot of the introduced features of 5th but feel that 4th was a more coherent game system. I have high hopes for 6th though.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I don't care for the implicit favoritism shown toward the Gunbunny archetype' date=' whether the truly exhaustive array of Skill stunts available to the triggerhappy to the equipment doubling rule that turns a Focus Limitation into an advantage. Too much Dark Champions seeped into the main system IMO.[/quote']

 

Yeah. I just disallow Autofire skills in my Games, limit MPA and don't allow the x2 for +5 just for focus. I generally say no to it all, although if I did allow it, it would be for any power, not just guns.

 

I think it is good sto have them in the main system, for games that use that kind of thing, though.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Yeah. I just disallow Autofire skills in my Games, limit MPA and don't allow the x2 for +5 just for focus. I generally say no to it all, although if I did allow it, it would be for any power, not just guns.

 

I think it is good sto have them in the main system, for games that use that kind of thing, though.

 

I agree on the last part - I don't think "too much Dark Champions" has creeped into the system at all. I think the system has filled out to allow for a number of greater options.

 

We're using one of the Autofire Skills in a Star Hero game, and it has neither been disruptive nor unbalancing. I have noticed, on this specific rule, that many forget it requires a Full Phase Action to use the Skills, which changes tactics significantly.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

...

 

We're using one of the Autofire Skills in a Star Hero game, and it has neither been disruptive nor unbalancing. I have noticed, on this specific rule, that many forget it requires a Full Phase Action to use the Skills, which changes tactics significantly.

 

Unless the character also has the Rapid Attack skill. :D

 

from 5er:

Ranged Rapid Attack allows a character to make an attack with the Rapid Fire Combat Maneuver or Autofire Skills as a Half Phase Action (i.e., after performing a Half Phase Action, such as making a Half Move).
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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I agree on the last part - I don't think "too much Dark Champions" has creeped into the system at all. I think the system has filled out to allow for a number of greater options.

 

We're using one of the Autofire Skills in a Star Hero game, and it has neither been disruptive nor unbalancing. I have noticed, on this specific rule, that many forget it requires a Full Phase Action to use the Skills, which changes tactics significantly.

 

Unless the character also has the Rapid Attack skill. :D

 

from 5er:

 

True. But you're still at 1/2 DCV. :)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

True. But you're still at 1/2 DCV. :)

 

I was trying to limit the crunchiness for a moment :D

 

On a more serious note...

 

I wish HERO had some sort of centralized 'zoom' feature that pointed out what combination of abilities fit each level of 'game detail' that GM's and players want to use. Anyone with enough experience can discover this for themselves but the main book doesn't speak to this concept enough imo.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

OK It's more expensive to buy every single defense to maximum levels than it is to buy one attack. However, it's even more expensive to buy every single attack so you can avoid the defenses you might encounter.

 

I am not sure what you're hoping for: mister invulnerable who laughs at all possible attacks?

 

I've tried to build that character, yes, accepting that his attacks will necessarily be underpowered with respect to everyone else's because of the cost of the defenses.

 

It's not that he laughs all attacks off, because he's still subject to knockback, knockdown, entangle, etc., and CON Stunning, and so on. But the concept is that he survives everything over time, and he can perform what would otherwise be clearly suicidal heroic acts, like piloting the disabled but fully-loaded tanker jet in a controlled-flight-into-empty-ground maneuver to keep it from falling randomly in a densely populated urban area, or walk out of the wreckage or crater from the most devastating attacks and be ready to keep fighting. He's not going to be able to stop any other super single-handed, but he is never going to be put out of the fight (well, the uber-brick could throw him far enough so he's two counties over and can't get back in time, but you see what I mean), either, even against an integrated diversified team of other supers.

 

Let's just say ... you can't build that character with the same point totals as the attack specialists.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I was trying to limit the crunchiness for a moment :D

 

On a more serious note...

 

I wish HERO had some sort of centralized 'zoom' feature that pointed out what combination of abilities fit each level of 'game detail' that GM's and players want to use. Anyone with enough experience can discover this for themselves but the main book doesn't speak to this concept enough imo.

 

That would be something good to put in the Hero Genre by Genre section. And, additionally, in the genre books.

 

I would agree, though, that scaling can be an issue in Hero. What is a good damage scale for Superheroic levels is often overkill on Heroic. Also, it seems to me that it is more difficult to balance at the heroic level... how do you make a 9mm pistol lethal at heroic level, while making it bounce off of most supers (answer is probably that you don't!)

 

One of the things I liked about the D20 Star Wars (first two editions... I do not have the current) was the scaling... from person scale, to vehicle scale, to spacecraft scale. I would love to see something like that make it into the Hero System... not sure how it would work, but would probably go a long way towards solving the M1A2 Abrams is tougher than the USS Iowa problems.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The insistence that all genres have to benchmark against one another.

 

Unfortunately I have no rep power, else I would certainly rep you for this comment. Well said.

 

Hero's superhero roots gave the 'sweet spot' benchmark to that genre. Which leaves the heroic genre living in the cramped space under the original superhero benchmark. Heroic level supporters have legitimate grounds for their complaints of lack of granularity. Breaking the benchmark link between genres, unless the game world really does include both superhero and heroic player characters, would allow the heroic genre to find its own sweet spot.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

OK It's more expensive to buy every single defense to maximum levels than it is to buy one attack. However, it's even more expensive to buy every single attack so you can avoid the defenses you might encounter.

 

Not really true. If you buy a 60 point multipower, an additional ultra slot costs only 6 points, less if there's some sort of limitation on it.

 

It costs a lot more than 6 points to be well defended against a 60 point attack (except maybe NND)

 

Then again, if you just buy a VPP, then the costs for additional attacks is 0, although the initial buy-in is much more expensive...

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