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So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?


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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

One of the things I liked about the D20 Star Wars (first two editions... I do not have the current) was the scaling... from person scale' date=' to vehicle scale, to spacecraft scale. I would love to see something like that make it into the Hero System... not sure [i']how[/i] it would work, but would probably go a long way towards solving the M1A2 Abrams is tougher than the USS Iowa problems.

 

 

D6 Star Wars had that (think it was added to 1st in one of the combat addons and was made part of core in 2nd Ed) and the current D6 System has Scale built-in for dealing with weapons and objects of different sizes. D20 seemed to use huge scaling of dice for larger vehicles (e.g. an Strike Cruiser did 5d10 x 5 damage with its weapons). Not really the same thing as Dice Caps (D6 SW 2nd Ed), Dice pool increase/decrease for scale difference (D6 SW 2nd Ed Revised & Expanded) or flat Scale difference (Current D6 System).

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The insistence that all genres have to benchmark against one another.

 

That is one of the core concepts of the system to me. That all characters are portable to all games (with minor tweaking). A 20 STR lifts the same and does the same damage no matter which flavor of Hero you play in; that a sword does the same damage in Fantasy, Modern Day and SF.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

That would be something good to put in the Hero Genre by Genre section. And, additionally, in the genre books.

 

I would agree, though, that scaling can be an issue in Hero. What is a good damage scale for Superheroic levels is often overkill on Heroic. Also, it seems to me that it is more difficult to balance at the heroic level... how do you make a 9mm pistol lethal at heroic level, while making it bounce off of most supers (answer is probably that you don't!)

 

One of the things I liked about the D20 Star Wars (first two editions... I do not have the current) was the scaling... from person scale, to vehicle scale, to spacecraft scale. I would love to see something like that make it into the Hero System... not sure how it would work, but would probably go a long way towards solving the M1A2 Abrams is tougher than the USS Iowa problems.

 

Not sure I quite follow your point about the 9mm pistol.

 

In Heroic level campaigns (at least the ones I've played in), Resistant Defenses are not the norm; getting hit by a 1d6 RKA hurts, especially if you also apply Hit Location rules. I've seen it happen. :)

 

As for the damage-scaling, d20 SW stole the idea from the original d6 rules (along with the vehicle combat rules, IIRC). As to its applicability with the Hero System, I don't have my books with me to confirm your M1A2 vs. battleship comparison, but it's not an issue I've ever seen in a game.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

As to its applicability with the Hero System' date=' I don't have my books with me to confirm your M1A2 vs. battleship comparison, but it's not an issue I've ever seen in a game.[/quote']

There was a debate a year or so ago, which was "showing" that an Abrams could sink a battleship before the battleship could destroy it (or something like that).

 

There was a classic issue of scaling, or however you want to talk about it.

 

On the other hand, I know how I would deal with that issue (treat the battleship more like a building than a vehicle, giving it a chance not to sink until 10X BODY has been inflicted... and the fact that all the BODY from the attack may not actually affect the vehicle, but just the wall... something like that..)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

As have already been mentioned: Regeneration, Instant Change, Damage Shield.

 

The insistence that all genres have to benchmark against one another.

 

Unfortunately I have no rep power, else I would certainly rep you for this comment. Well said.

 

Hero's superhero roots gave the 'sweet spot' benchmark to that genre. Which leaves the heroic genre living in the cramped space under the original superhero benchmark. Heroic level supporters have legitimate grounds for their complaints of lack of granularity. Breaking the benchmark link between genres, unless the game world really does include both superhero and heroic player characters, would allow the heroic genre to find its own sweet spot.

 

Though some of us would list that as one of the things that we like about Hero. :)

 

That is one of the core concepts of the system to me. That all characters are portable to all games (with minor tweaking). A 20 STR lifts the same and does the same damage no matter which flavor of Hero you play in; that a sword does the same damage in Fantasy' date=' Modern Day and SF.[/quote']

 

Quoting a whole bunch 'cuz it's in response to all the posts.

 

I agree with Archermoo and Lord Mhoram, I think this is one of Her's strengths that many genres can benchmark against each other.

 

but I would change the original statement:

 

Hero's insistence that all genres CAN benchmark against one another.

 

I've certainly played in Heroic games where if the Characters were ported to another genre they would look like powerful superheros, but within the context of their home-game weren't all that. And I've played in games where a 9mm handgun was set to 3D6, and games where it was set to 2D6. They don't have to be compatible with other genres or games.

 

But they can be very very easily.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The insistence that all genres have to benchmark against one another.

 

I'm with Lord Mhoram on this, that's one of the selling points for Hero to me. I can take my cowboy from Western Hero and dump him into a Champions game, or a Fantasy Hero game, or a Vietnam War game, or a caveman came or whatever and there's no changes needed. Each genre ports exactly into the other with no fuss and no conversion.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I'm with Lord Mhoram on this' date=' that's one of the selling points for Hero to me. I can take my cowboy from Western Hero and dump him into a Champions game, or a Fantasy Hero game, or a Vietnam War game, or a caveman came or whatever and there's no changes needed. Each genre ports exactly into the other with no fuss and no conversion.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I ran transworld fantasy hero game for years, (under 4th) and all I had to do was say "Use this sourcebook, here are you max Damage Def and Char Range - go to it). My initial group had a Western, a Cyber, a low powered Superhero, and a couple of natives. A spy, a Star Hero and a Pulp came in later. I had to do no work for the cross genre.

 

I could not have done that under any other system. :)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I've thought for years that HERO should get the rights to a Grimjack worldbook because it is exactly the right system to interpret that world. As a side note, HERO is also perfect for Rifts but I don't think they should pursue that license. ;)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

They could pursue the Torg license though' date=' it was a better setting and Rifts is a cheap knockoff.[/quote']I doubt they would do either and, as I recall, a lot of people did not like Torg for one reason or another. I would not mind seeing a cross-genre setting for HERO though. I wouldn't even care if they added a little bit of "cheese" to the setting, like the fastest Gunslinger being built on super-hero scale. Perhaps a supplement that gives guidelines for building your own cross-dimensional adventures. I would imagine that the "most powerful" genre in terms of points and rules subset (heroic vs superheroic) would be your start point.

 

Interesting concept, all in all.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

It's not that he laughs all attacks off' date=' because he's still subject to knockback, knockdown, entangle, etc., and CON Stunning,[/quote']

 

First, there is no such thing as Con Stunning. Second, being Stunned occurs only if you take enough STUN to exceed your CON - the character won't be stunned if he never takes STUN through his defenses.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

First' date=' there is no such thing as Con Stunning. Second, being Stunned occurs only if you take enough STUN to exceed your CON - the character won't be stunned if he never takes STUN through his defenses.[/quote']

 

Sorry, a local colloquialism crept in; my fault. Yes, Stunned happens if you take more STUN in a single hit than your CON. It is possible, however, to be reduced to zero remaining STUN without that ever happening (with it happening can also occur, of course). That has other consequences. We have had both happen at our table (and in fact the latter condition has, at times, happened more frequently than the former) and we've got an unorthodox jargon to distinguish the two conditions, and I left that in. Sorry.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Sorry' date=' a local colloquialism crept in; my fault.[/quote']

Unless St. Louis is local its not a local colloquialism. I have seen it numerous times on the board so I think its a commonly used way to describe taking more Stun in a hit than ones Con score.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Unless St. Louis is local its not a local colloquialism. I have seen it numerous times on the board so I think its a commonly used way to describe taking more Stun in a hit than ones Con score.

Well, what's bad is us using the word "Stunned" to mean the condition "reduced to zero STUN", and I think that is purely local.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Unless St. Louis is local its not a local colloquialism. I have seen it numerous times on the board so I think its a commonly used way to describe taking more Stun in a hit than ones Con score.

 

Colloquialisms can crop up in several different locations. Particularly if they those different groups have internet access.

 

Personally I prefer the terminology in the book for taking more Stun than cones Con in a single hit. Stunned. I've never had anyone I was playing with confuse it with being Unconscious. Though I HAVE seen newbies be very confused by having the term sprung on them. "How is Con Stunned different than being Stunned?"

 

I've always seen it as a solution looking for a problem myself...

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Well' date=' what's bad is us using the word "Stunned" to mean the condition "reduced to zero STUN", and I think that is purely local.[/quote']

 

Ah. That would certainly be confusing. :)

 

So do you not use "Unconscious" at all?

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I've tried to build that character, yes, accepting that his attacks will necessarily be underpowered with respect to everyone else's because of the cost of the defenses.

 

It's not that he laughs all attacks off, because he's still subject to knockback, knockdown, entangle, etc., and CON Stunning, and so on. But the concept is that he survives everything over time, and he can perform what would otherwise be clearly suicidal heroic acts, like piloting the disabled but fully-loaded tanker jet in a controlled-flight-into-empty-ground maneuver to keep it from falling randomly in a densely populated urban area, or walk out of the wreckage or crater from the most devastating attacks and be ready to keep fighting. He's not going to be able to stop any other super single-handed, but he is never going to be put out of the fight (well, the uber-brick could throw him far enough so he's two counties over and can't get back in time, but you see what I mean), either, even against an integrated diversified team of other supers.

 

Let's just say ... you can't build that character with the same point totals as the attack specialists.

 

Being immune to all attacks at all times tends to be expensive. As it should be, honestly. Having a large number of attacks usable simultaneously is also very expensive.

 

However, being able to attack in a variety of ways via a Multi Power is inexpensive, because while you have versatility from phase to phase you cannot use your attacks simultaneously.

 

Similarly, being utterly immune to some attacks some of the time is inexpensive, if you go the same route.

 

Of course, various folks ave debated that the idea that a modular defense MP is rather broken (which presumably means they feel the new advantage in UEP is rather dangerous as well).

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Being stunned also has other meanings to people than just the term from the HERO System. If I described my character as being stunned are you sure I'm referring to the technical term or me role-playing the act of his eyes popping open and jaw hitting the floor, heheh.

 

The group I'm in uses Con stunned and unconscious which makes it easier for someone to say they are stunned and not mean losing an action that phase :)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Being stunned also has other meanings to people than just the term from the HERO System. If I described my character as being stunned are you sure I'm referring to the technical term or me role-playing the act of his eyes popping open and jaw hitting the floor, heheh.

 

The group I'm in uses Con stunned and unconscious which makes it easier for someone to say they are stunned and not mean losing an action that phase :)

 

Wheras I just use other terms when I mean "eyes popping open and jaw hitting the floor". Gobsmacked is a favourite. And then reserve the term that has game meaning (Stunned) for, well, its game meaning. ;)

 

Really what terminology a local group wants to use amonst themselves is entirely up to them. The only problem comes in when they start interacting with other gamers, either at cons or on the internet. It generally leads to confusion. Particularly on a board where a large number of newbies regularly show up to ask about the system.

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