So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

[tarragon]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Really what terminology a local group wants to use amonst themselves is entirely up to them.

 

In the past I was in a group that used STUNned for unconscious and CONned for con stun because the terms reference the characteristics they effect.

 

There is obviously room for confusion here where many people see the name of a different and unrelated characteristic in the status's name. "What do you mean stunned has nothing to do with STUN?"

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

In the past I was in a group that used STUNned for unconscious and CONned for con stun because the terms reference the characteristics they effect.

 

There is obviously room for confusion here where many people see the name of a different and unrelated characteristic in the status's name. "What do you mean stunned has nothing to do with STUN?"

 

But, um... it does.

 

Stunned = STUN Damage exceeds CON Characteristic in 1 Hit.

Unconcious = 0 STUN or less.

 

I don't see how Stunned doesn't involve STUN.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

But, um... it does.

 

Stunned = STUN Damage exceeds CON Characteristic in 1 Hit.

Unconcious = 0 STUN or less.

 

I don't see how Stunned doesn't involve STUN.

 

Pretty much my thought. Stunned is the name of a condition caused by loss of Stun that is less debilitating than than being unconscious. The metric for how much Stun loss is needed is a different stat (CON), but that doesn't stop it from being due to Stun loss. As you rightly point out that hardly makes it have "nothing to do with STUN".

 

As I've said in the past, the only responce I've ever heard to the term "Con Stunned" from someone that hadn't already heard it defined has been "How is that different from being Stunned?"

[tarragon]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I don't see how Stunned doesn't involve STUN.

 

My only point was that there is room for confusion. We know this because people do get confused by this.

 

I'm suggesting that that confusion is based on the fact that Stunned the condition has nothing to do with STUN the characteristic; it has everything to do with CON the characteristic.

 

Look at the number of times this comes up on the boards. For some people it obviously makes more sense to clarify the condition. This is a terminology problem. Is it a bad one? Bad enough to bother changing in 6th ed? Probably not, as long as people understand each other.

 

On a related side note[1], isn't it defined somewhere that stun between -9 and -0 leaves the character awake enough to have knowledge of their surroundings? If so I wouldn't call that unconscious, so what is it?

 

[1] and here's where I have a chance to show my unfamiliarity with 5th...

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

My only point was that there is room for confusion. We know this because people do get confused by this.

 

I'm suggesting that that confusion is based on the fact that Stunned the condition has nothing to do with STUN the characteristic; it has everything to do with CON the characteristic.

 

Look at the number of times this comes up on the boards. For some people it obviously makes more sense to clarify the condition. This is a terminology problem. Is it a bad one? Bad enough to bother changing in 6th ed? Probably not, as long as people understand each other.

 

On a related side note[1], isn't it defined somewhere that stun between -9 and -0 leaves the character awake enough to have knowledge of their surroundings? If so I wouldn't call that unconscious, so what is it?

 

[1] and here's where I have a chance to show my unfamiliarity with 5th...

 

Some groups I'm in use Staggered instead of Stunned.

 

And in my experience - a lot of the confusion comes from either people who've played Champions for a long time (3rd Ed. at least) or haven't actually read the rules. New players I've encountered seem to have no issue with Stunned as a term.

 

I've always viewed it as Stunned = Took Too Much STUN Damage.

I don't know why the Characteristic being involved is an issue. But there you have it.

 

As for the descriptions in the book:

Stunned is barely aware of surroundings, but still on their feet.

Unconscious is a Mechanical Term for at or below 0 Stun. At 0 to -9 you are down and barely aware of your surroundings.

 

If you've ever been knocked out it's that nebulous zone where the world is kinda fuzzy and narrow and you're very not aware of a lot.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

My only point was that there is room for confusion. We know this because people do get confused by this.

 

While I've never seen anyone have any problem confusing being Stunned and being Unconscious, I HAVE seen people confused by the use of the term "Con Stunned".

 

I'm suggesting that that confusion is based on the fact that Stunned the condition has nothing to do with STUN the characteristic; it has everything to do with CON the characteristic.

 

You can only be Stunned by taking Stun damage. Which means that STUN is pretty central to getting Stunned. If you are playing such that being Stunned doesn't have anything to do with Stun damage, then you aren't playing the game by the rules as written.

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

You can only be Stunned by taking Stun damage. Which means that STUN is pretty central to getting Stunned. If you are playing such that being Stunned doesn't have anything to do with Stun damage' date=' then you aren't playing the game by the rules as written.[/quote']

 

Stunning, really.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Stunning' date=' really.[/quote']

 

*whacks g-a upside the head with a wet herring

 

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Stunning' date=' really.[/quote']

 

*thwap*

 

Edit: archermoo beat me to it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

ah!

 

Dive For Cover! Dive For Cover!!

[tarragon]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Some groups I'm in use Staggered instead of Stunned.

 

I like Staggered. It's still common usage to describe that state and should have no cognitive overlap with STUN. I suspect it would clear up any need to distinguish it from the STUN characteristic and no one would ever use "Con Staggered"

 

Obviously this is a crazy minor terminology problem. This is nothing compared the whole "level" problem in some other well known system. But hey, every little fix is a fix. I'm going to go make this as a suggestion in the 6th ed pages.

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I like Staggered. It's still common usage to describe that state and should have no cognitive overlap with STUN. I suspect it would clear up any need to distinguish it from the STUN characteristic and no one would ever use "Con Staggered"

 

Obviously this is a crazy minor terminology problem. This is nothing compared the whole "level" problem in some other well known system. But hey, every little fix is a fix. I'm going to go make this as a suggestion in the 6th ed pages.

 

I'm still not sure why you don't think being Stunned has nothing to do with the STUN Characteristic but oh well.

You still have to compare the STUN Damage to your STUN, because if you hit 0 you skip Stunned and go straight to Unconscious.

 

It's a whole network of interconnectedness.

[BlackSword]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I like Staggered. It's still common usage to describe that state and should have no cognitive overlap with STUN. I suspect it would clear up any need to distinguish it from the STUN characteristic and no one would ever use "Con Staggered"[/QUOTe]

I like staggered, I typically use punch drunk to describe 'con stun,' as its descriptive and helps to avoid bringing game mechanics into descriptive fight.

I'm still not sure why you don't think being Stunned has nothing to do with the STUN Characteristic but oh well.

You still have to compare the STUN Damage to your STUN, because if you hit 0 you skip Stunned and go straight to Unconscious.

I think he meant that being 'con stunned' is not based on how much stun you have left, assuming its greater than zero. If 1 or 100 Stun left you can still be 'con stunned' if the amount of stun you took is greater than Con.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I like staggered, I typically use punch drunk to describe 'con stun,' as its descriptive and helps to avoid bringing game mechanics into descriptive fight.

 

I think he meant that being 'con stunned' is not based on how much stun you have left, assuming its greater than zero. If 1 or 100 Stun left you can still be 'con stunned' if the amount of stun you took is greater than Con.

 

True, being Stunned isn't a matter of how much STUN you have left. It is a matter of how much STUN Damage you take. Which pretty directly involves the STUN Characteristic.

 

I often wonder if people who use 'Con Stunned' also use 'Body Dead' or 'Stun Unconscious'...

[tarragon]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I often wonder if people who use 'Con Stunned' also use 'Body Dead' or 'Stun Unconscious'...

 

You know, every Monty Python quoting gamer has the background to make this error. "You stunned him, just as he was waking up" is definitely referring to unconscious.

 

Of course in that particular instance the parrot was probably "Stun Dead".

[CTaylor]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I think the confusion over the simple concept of being stunned comes because you have a stat called "STUN." It's a small thing, but if you only play Hero and not run it, only make one character per campaign, and play once every week or two it can be a bit hard to keep track. Then again, I don't think a game company exactly relies on the ultra-casual player for their income.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I think the confusion over the simple concept of being stunned comes because you have a stat called "STUN." It's a small thing' date=' but if you only play Hero and not run it, only make one character per campaign, and play once every week or two it can be a bit hard to keep track. Then again, I don't think a game company exactly relies on the ultra-casual player for their income.[/quote']

 

*shrug*

 

I've played with a pretty large number of pretty casual players over the last 27 or so years, and with all the problems they have had with the system not a single one of them had any confusion about what being stunned meant. But then again none of them has had any confusion about whether they needed to roll high or low either...

[Silbeg]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Ah. That would certainly be confusing.

 

So do you not use "Unconscious" at all?

 

or, using the terminology in 5ER, "Knocked Out", per 5ER 411.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

or' date=' using the terminology in 5ER, "Knocked Out", per 5ER 411. [/quote']

 

The difference of course is that unconscious is also terminology used in 5ER, and in fact the book seems to use them more or less interchangably. 'Con Stunned' appears nowhere in any Hero book that I am aware of.

[Silbeg]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The difference of course is that unconscious is also terminology used in 5ER' date=' and in fact the book seems to use them more or less interchangably. 'Con Stunned' appears nowhere in any Hero book that I am aware of. [/quote']

 

Absolutely agreed.

In fact, I never heard the term until about 5 years ago at a gaming convention... and I have been playing Champions since almost 1981... (memory gets fuzzy on exact dates after 25 years... )

[teh bunneh]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

In my game, we use "Boggled," but lots of folks use "Con Stunned." I've heard it for years. In situations like this, I must ask:

 

"When you hear the term "Con Stunned," do you understand what the person is trying to get across (despite it being not the proper, by-the-book term), or do you genuinely do not get it?"

 

If it's the first, it's not a problem. Chalk it up to a house rule and move on. If it's the second... well, I've never encountered anyone for whom it was the second.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

 

If it's the first, it's not a problem. Chalk it up to a house rule and move on. If it's the second... well, I've never encountered anyone for whom it was the second.

 

When I first heard it, I thought it was for something different. Stunned was for taking enough stun to exceed your CON. So I wondered what was different about Con Stunned (did it last 2 phases or something?).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I think the reason the term came up my old group years ago was due to repeated misunderstandings due to the words "STUN" and "STUNNED" being very hard to distinguish when you have 7+ guys around a table all trying to get the GM's attention during a heated champions combat.

 

NOISE is the reason the term came into being. Nothing more.

If the terminology police have issue with this I applaud the fact that they have never had to experience this kind of rpg chaos firsthand.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

In my game, we use "Boggled," but lots of folks use "Con Stunned." I've heard it for years. In situations like this, I must ask:

 

"When you hear the term "Con Stunned," do you understand what the person is trying to get across (despite it being not the proper, by-the-book term), or do you genuinely do not get it?"

 

If it's the first, it's not a problem. Chalk it up to a house rule and move on. If it's the second... well, I've never encountered anyone for whom it was the second.

 

That would be #2 for me. I first came into contact with it on a previous incarnation of the Hero boards, and had no idea what people were talking about. It didn't really come up that often so I mostly ignored it, but eventually I asked someone who used it what they were talking about, and was pretty boggled by it.

 

I've also seen it cause problems at a couple of con games. Experienced players that are used to it using it without explaining it and so confusing newbies who are already working hard enough to remember the actual rules. Unfortunately in my limited experience a large percentage of the people who use it forget that it isn't the normal term, and use it as if it was. Without taking the time to explain their house-rule to anyone else.

 

My only real objection to it (other than thinking it sounds silly) is people using it in rules discussions here. This is where people go to learn about Hero. All using non-standard terminology is going to do is confuse people. And side-track threads into discussions like this one. Because in general I'll point out the improper term pretty much whenever I see it so that other people don't get confused by it.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

When I first heard it' date=' I thought it was for something different. Stunned was for taking enough stun to exceed your CON. So I wondered what was different about Con Stunned (did it last 2 phases or something?).[/quote']

 

Yeah, that was pretty much my thought process too. That and giving me a reason to doubt the rules knowledge of the people using it...