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So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?


Mencelus

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I think the reason the term came up my old group years ago was due to repeated misunderstandings due to the words "STUN" and "STUNNED" being very hard to distinguish when you have 7+ guys around a table all trying to get the GM's attention during a heated champions combat.

 

NOISE is the reason the term came into being. Nothing more.

If the terminology police have issue with this I applaud the fact that they have never had to experience this kind of rpg chaos firsthand.

:rolleyes:

 

I don't really care what term people use for anything in their own games. I just like to point out when someone uses a term here that isn't a normal rules term and might therefor confuse people who aren't familiar with it.

 

And while I've been around quite a few noisy tables in my time, no one has ever had any problems with Stunned. *shrug*

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CON Stunned, Stunned & STUN

 

In the groups I played, you were "stunned" (CON +1 or more STUN in one hit), "on the ropes" (1 to 10 STUN "in the negs"), or "K-O'ed" (more than 10 negative stun). While I might not like it when someone uses a term that I refuse to under most circumstances, as long as I understand what is meant, the phrase has done its work. If I draw the conclusion that someone using the objected-to (yet apparently widely-used) term is therefore stupid for using it, that's my problem, not theirs.

 

Actually, the only thing I don't like about 5ED is that the book is significantly larger and heavier than 4th edition. I like much of the added material, but it doesn't seem as easy to look things up as the previous edition was. Portability, folks! I hope they remember that when they publish 6ED.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

But then again none of them has had any confusion about whether they needed to roll high or low either...

 

I don't know, maybe our groups are the exception. I've no way of knowing, but I suspect that the confusion people suggest is out there is exaggerated for effect.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

That is one of the core concepts of the system to me. That all characters are portable to all games (with minor tweaking). A 20 STR lifts the same and does the same damage no matter which flavor of Hero you play in; that a sword does the same damage in Fantasy' date=' Modern Day and SF.[/quote']

 

This is one of the reasons why I am against scaling being introduced into Hero System. I presume that Scale would affect more than just damage -- like lifting from STR. So a 10 STR 'Mech will be on a different scale -- and thus have different lifting capability -- than a 10 STR person or 10 STR spaceship.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Well' date=' Torg has a terrible game system but the setting was great conceptually and that could be easily picked up and converted. Probably cheaply too.[/quote']

 

It was... different. It was definately a more "cinematic" system, IMO. The main problem in converting to any other system would be the Axioms.

 

In TORG, every realm (universe) has it's own set of physical laws that governed it, grouped into 4 categories. Spirit, Magic, Technology, and Social. For a regular person, you could not do something or use something that exceeded any of the Axioms of the realm you were in. A 50-cal Machine Gun would work for Joe Normal in some places, but in others the gun's Tech Axiom was too high, and couldn't work.

 

The normal wizard from Aysle (the magical realm) trying to use an Advanced Heat-Seeking Fireball spell here on Earth would suffer the same problem. That spell has a certain Axiom rating (for Magic, in this case), and in a realm that didn't have that rating or better, it wouldn't work.

 

Social and Spiritual objects, concepts, and actions also were limited by the local Axioms. The concept of "give me 5 minutes, then follow me" can't be spoken by the regular person from Earth when in The Living Lands (the Primitive -- Social & Tech-wise -- Realm)

 

In Hero System, the only difference between many things is purely Special Effects. How "advanced" is an 3d6 RKA, Explosion? So the GM would have to restrict certain special effects and not others, depending upon how "advanced" he thought that object/action/idea was.

 

Links to a fan site that explains them much better than I have time for now from work (;)):

 

The Magic Axiom

The Spirit Axiom

The Tech Axiom

The Social Axiom

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

*whacks g-a upside the head with a wet herring

 

:D

 

*thwap*

 

Edit: archermoo beat me to it.

 

Were those coordinated attacks? You need to add the STUN after defenses of both attacks to see if you Boggled G-A. :D

 

 

I often wonder if people who use 'Con Stunned' also use 'Body Dead' or 'Stun Unconscious'...

 

Or PRE Gobsmacked?

 

 

You know, every Monty Python quoting gamer has the background to make this error. "You stunned him, just as he was waking up" is definitely referring to unconscious.

 

Of course in that particular instance the parrot was probably "Stun Dead".

 

Life after Stunned = The StunDead.

 

 

That would be #2 for me. I first came into contact with it on a previous incarnation of the Hero boards' date=' and had no idea what people were talking about. It didn't really come up that often so I mostly ignored it, but eventually I asked someone who used it what they were talking about, and was pretty boggled by it.[/quote']

 

Not Gobsmacked by it? :D

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

You know...It occures to me that there is no real definition in the book regarding what happens when you are dead.

 

I mean in some genre being dead might just be the start for you

 

So if you have positive stun, and negative body equal to your body why can't you be moving around (Per the rules)...just something for thinking about

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

You know...It occures to me that there is no real definition in the book regarding what happens when you are dead.

 

I mean in some genre being dead might just be the start for you

 

So if you have positive stun, and negative body equal to your body why can't you be moving around (Per the rules)...just something for thinking about

 

We had this discussion once a couple years ago.

 

Steve didn't feel he needed to be explicit about "Dead."

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

We had this discussion once a couple years ago.

 

Steve didn't feel he needed to be explicit about "Dead."

 

You know...that is what I get for posting when half asleep...

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

In the groups I played' date=' you were "stunned" (CON +1 or more STUN in one hit), "on the ropes" (1 to 10 STUN "in the negs"), or "K-O'ed" (more than 10 negative stun). While I might not like it when someone uses a term that I refuse to under most circumstances, as long as I understand what is meant, the phrase has done its work. If I draw the conclusion that someone using the objected-to (yet apparently widely-used) term is therefore stupid for using it, that's my problem, not theirs.[/quote']

 

I would like to see that nebulous ground at 0 to -9 STUN get its own name, and specific rules. I prefer the idea that such characters are incapable of taking action, but can still stand (if not already knocked down). This seems to simulate that character who is knocked to dreamland by the next punch (since he takes double STUN) without requiring one to strike a downed opponent.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I would like to see that nebulous ground at 0 to -9 STUN get its own name' date=' and specific rules. I prefer the idea that such characters are incapable of taking action, but can still stand (if not already knocked down). This seems to simulate that character who is knocked to dreamland by the next punch (since he takes double STUN) without requiring one to strike a downed opponent.[/quote']

 

What I don't get is why, according to the rules (AFAIK), a person in this Dazed state can stand upright on the ground, but can't do the similar feat in the air -- i.e., hover. It seems to penalize Flight IMO.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I would like to see that nebulous ground at 0 to -9 STUN get its own name

 

I always think of the Tyson-Douglas fight, where Tyson is on his hands and knees fumbling around trying to find his mouthpiece like he's drugged. He was at this level of stun, aware, moving slightly, but out of the fight.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

What I don't get is why' date=' according to the rules (AFAIK), a person in this Dazed state can stand upright on the ground, but can't do the similar feat in the air -- i.e., hover. It seems to penalize Flight IMO.[/quote']

 

Well, that all depends on how the flight is built. If it requires the users conscious control, then being dazed might make you lose your focus on it (Can't fly if you don't remember to flap your wings or focus on holding yourself up in the air). Just being upright doesn't mean you can resist being hit. Someone can probably not you down by walking up and giving you a light push with one finger, heheh.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Well' date=' that all depends on how the flight is built. If it requires the users conscious control, then being dazed might make you lose your focus on it (Can't fly if you don't remember to flap your wings or focus on holding yourself up in the air). Just being upright doesn't mean you can resist being hit. Someone can probably not you down by walking up and giving you a light push with one finger, heheh.[/quote']

 

I can see the flapping of wings part because that requires actual movement to remain aloft (perhaps it's bought with Restrainable?). But I always made the mental association that Running was roughly equal to Flight. Both cost the same, both have benefits the other doesn't. Running has No Turn Mode. Flight allows you to go Up and Down. Thus, I equated standing (Running 0") with hovering (Flying 0"). If one has enough focus to stand, I reasoned that one should have enough focus to not fall from altitude (i.e., hover).

 

Is this view wrong somehow, or is there a bias against arial combatants?

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Standing is essentially a 0 END activity.

 

Hovering via Flight costs END unless the 0 END Advantage was purchased as well.

 

The knocked out but standing character evidently did not take any knock-back from the attack that put him at negative Stun.

 

A good flying analogy to this would be a helicopter pilot who was already in a 'hover-mode' before getting knocked out. As long as the attack that put him at negative Stun didn't do any knock-back the helicopter should still be in a hover.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

more simply:

 

Standing Up is not a Power.

Flight is.

 

When you are Knocked Out all Non-Persistent Powers turn off - which includes flight.

 

Or think of it this way:

 

Standing Up is a Persistent Power.

Flight is a Non-Persistent Power.

 

You can remain in the standing position all you want. But your Flight just turned off so your standing up nicely as you plummet into the ground.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

 

You can remain in the standing position all you want. But your Flight just turned off so your standing up nicely as you plummet into the ground.

 

One of the reasons I like to give my fliers that 1" 0 end persistant. if he is stunned he doesn't plummet, just spinns there in the air. :)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

One of the reasons I like to give my fliers that 1" 0 end persistant. if he is stunned he doesn't plummet' date=' just spinns there in the air. :)[/quote']

 

Piñata! :eg:

 

But I had that same thought (but just recently). Put a Lim on it like "Only To Not Fall(-2), and it's only 1 point. ;)

 

If you Flight draws it's END from an END Reserve, this is not needed. The END Reserve continues to feed the attached powers regardless of the character's conciousness, allowing the Flight to continue to function.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

more simply:

 

Standing Up is not a Power.

Flight is.

 

When you are Knocked Out all Non-Persistent Powers turn off - which includes flight.

 

Or think of it this way:

 

Standing Up is a Persistent Power.

Flight is a Non-Persistent Power.

 

You can remain in the standing position all you want. But your Flight just turned off so your standing up nicely as you plummet into the ground.

 

"I'll bounce off that broad flat surface and be in a lot of pain."* :D

 

I can see that I guess. Hovering is purely a function of Flight, while Standing is actually a function of Strength, not Running.

 

 

 

*Rep to whoever gets this reference first. ;)

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Here's one - linear versus exponential progression. For example, every 5 points of STR doubles the amount you can lift, but adds a flat 2" to the distance of a standing throw. Which means at high point totals you can lift the Earth but can't throw a baseball more than a mile away.

 

Here's another - noncombat move versus MegaScale movement. MegaScale is cheaper, and more useful (due to the higher speeds) in 99% of noncombat situations.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Megascale might be cheaper, but you need a second advantage or you can't go a part of the movement. So if you make it 1" = 1km, then you have to go at least 1km for each inch of the movement power you try to use. Not very useful for going 200m as you would overshoot by 800m, heheh.

 

hmm, how much farther could the young weight lifting Arnold throw a baseball vs a high school pitcher? What about a shot put? Unfortunately there is a lot more to strength than just how much pure mass one can pick up, heheh.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Throwing distance realism is something that the Ultimate Brick dealt with quite well. Since the direct damage dealt by a throw based on the STR used is not being changed however it made sense to leave those extra rules from 5er and make a separate book.

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Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Here's one - linear versus exponential progression. For example' date=' every 5 points of STR doubles the amount you can lift, but adds a flat 2" to the distance of a standing throw. Which means at high point totals you can lift the Earth but can't throw a baseball more than a mile away.[/quote']

 

Unless you are using the "realistic throwing" charts from The Ultimate Brick.

 

Which leads to the issue of all RPGs... the hunt for the supplementary rules from the various "splat" books.

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