So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

[Egyptoid]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Rules are great...

 

but they didnt do modules and supplements in color and style.

like Mutants and Masterminds books:

full color illustrations, 14 or less

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Rules are great...

 

but they didnt do modules and supplements in color and style.

like Mutants and Masterminds books:

 

 

full color illustrations, 14 or less

 

Eh, if I have to choose between rules I like and pretty books, rules win every time.

 

And now with 6th edition the people that crave colour pictures in their rulebooks should be satisfied.

[CTaylor]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Hey, if you want to pay 50 bucks for your rules so you can have pretty color pictures, feel free. I'd rather pay less and get black and white, thank you.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Hey' date=' if you want to pay 50 bucks for your rules so you can have pretty color pictures, feel free. I'd rather pay less and get black and white, thank you.[/quote']

 

As a note, the 5th edition rules are already $50, and they're black and white.

 

Though I'm personally hoping that there will be a black and white softcover version of the core 6e books available. Though I'm certainly not betting on it...

[Nolgroth]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

And now with 6th edition the people that crave colour pictures in their rulebooks should be satisfied.

What if you want pictures to color?

[CTaylor]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

As a note, the 5th edition rules are already $50, and they're black and white.

 

Yeah true, try 75+ bucks then

 

What if you want pictures to color?

 

Yeah, I've been known to do that

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

What if you want pictures to color?

 

The kiddies section of most book stores have all sorts of colouring books available.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Yeah true, try 75+ bucks then

 

Eh, pure conjecture at this point. We'll see when they come out, since at least the core rules books for 6e will have colour art in them. And that is pretty much the least interesting change for me that Hero have mentioned that they plan to make to the 6e books. I don't dislike color art, and I'm not really overly concerned that the books will be too expensive. I've just never liked the feel of the paper that you need to use to have full colour art. But I'm not going to worry about it until I get a chance to see an example.

[Sean Waters]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

What don't I like about Hero5?

 

**opens book at random: page 163**

 

N-Ray vision. WHAT? This should clearly be a modifier to other senses that allows you to sense through obstructions, like dimensional allows you to sense other dimensions. The power has arbitrary rules, and arbitrary effects, quite possibly for game balance reasons.

 

Sorry, I play that game a lot and I shouldn't.

 

What really irks me about Hero5 is constantly being told that rules are subject to GM discretion, and having people repeat that to me. The book would be 20% thinner if you took out every repetition of that phrase.

[Tonio]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

What really irks me about Hero5 is constantly being told that rules are subject to GM discretion' date=' and having people repeat that to me. The book would be 20% thinner if you took out every repetition of that phrase.[/quote']

 

I suspect the places where it's repeated should read "We suggest the GM look closer here" or "This rule is more likely than usual to be one the GM will want to change".

[SteveZilla]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

And now with 6th edition the people that crave colour pictures in their rulebooks should be satisfied.

 

Do you know something we don't?

 

What if you want pictures to color?

 

Hero System's pictures are B&W because they are there for the same reason as the rest of the Toolkit. To make (color) the way you want.

 

What really irks me about Hero5 is constantly being told that rules are subject to GM discretion' date=' and having people repeat that to me. The book would be 20% thinner if you took out every repetition of that phrase.[/quote']

 

Hear hear!

 

I suspect the places where it's repeated should read "We suggest the GM look closer here" or "This rule is more likely than usual to be one the GM will want to change".

 

Perhaps a system where those are flagged with, say a magnifying glass? And we could go a step further -- rate various options on their abusability with 1-5 magnifying glasses.

[archermoo]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Do you know something we don't?

 

Nope. It has been publicly announced by Hero that at least the core 6e books will be published in colour.

[captainNeda]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Knockback.

 

Can't stand it.

 

Great for the comic book genre, so you'd never be able to convince me to stop using it though.

Go figure.

 

Totally agree, it's to unrealistic. I worked out a more realistic version based on the VLF stuff in the book a few years ago. Small projectiles striking large targets did little knock back, while large projectiles striking small targets sent them flying at twice the velocity. It required that movement be modified so that doubling movement added 2d6 damage.

 

That leads to my real peeve. Movement and move through damage. That is the most broken system there is because it's based on phases not segments, and high speed characters are penalized compared to there low speed high movement counter parts. If there is anything in hero that is broke this is. The fix is to make the whole system exponential, and 10 points of movement adds 2d6 to movement damage and doubles movement. That's how it works in real life Force = 1/2Mass x Velocity^2

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Totally agree' date=' it's to unrealistic. I worked out a more realistic version based on the VLF stuff in the book a few years ago. Small projectiles striking large targets did little knock back, while large projectiles striking small targets sent them flying at twice the velocity. It required that movement be modified so that doubling movement added 2d6 damage.[/quote']

 

Actually, my dislike of Knockback has absolutely nothing to do with realism. In fact, I tend to avoid realism in my comic book games. Or most games.

 

When the Laws Of Physic meet the Laws Of Cool, the Laws Of Cool win. Every time. Realism is what I get when I wake up and go to work every morning. That sucks even more than Knockback.

 

I just think Knockback is stupid, if genre appropriate.

[captainNeda]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

In this case laws of physics can be cooler. A 32" move through can result in 32" of KB. A bricks can start knocking each other back entire city blocks. This is great for energy projectors, speedsters, martial artists, but it sucks for energy projectors That is of course if the energy blast was a bullet or laser. It's a different story if it's a bowling ball

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

In this case laws of physics can be cooler. A 32" move through can result in 32" of KB. A bricks can start knocking each other back entire city blocks. This is great for energy projectors' date=' speedsters, martial artists, but it sucks for energy projectors That is of course if the energy blast was a bullet or laser. It's a different story if it's a bowling ball [/quote']

 

See, at that point I wouldn't even bother with Knockback Rules at all.

 

In my opinion if you're going to use it - use it regardless of the "size of the object" being tossed around. That's The Point Of Comic Book Knockback - A bullet can throw a guy fifty feet.

[SteveZilla]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

60' if from Dirty Harry's gun!

 

Appropriate application of the No Knockback and Does Knockdown, Not Knockback Limitations are a good thing even in 4 color games. But even without them, it's unlikely that an RKA will result in much knockback. a 2d6 RKA would have to roll a very good BODY at the same time rolling low on it's 3d6 Knockback dice (presuming the target is on the ground, etc.).

[Nolgroth]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I just think Knockback is stupid' date=' if genre appropriate.[/quote']And the funny thing? I don't play supers very much (up to now not more than a 4th edition session or two) and Knockback is what sold me on the HERO rules. The rest came later.

[NestorDRod]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Sorry, captain, but the moment someone starts applying "real-world" laws to RPGs, especially superhero RPGs, I tend to tune out.

 

One of my favorite quotes comes from a Shadowfist card (Shadowfist is the CCG that inspired the Feng Shui HK Movie Action RPG). It was the flavor text for Grenade:

 

Grenades work so much better in movies than in real life. This ain't real life.

 

 

I don't consider a rule broken if it doesn't emulate how things work in reality. I evaluate it based on how well it models the genre it's supposed to represent.

 

IMHO, believe this is a concept Steve & Co. need to keep upmost in their minds as they look at 6e.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

What really irks me about Hero5 is constantly being told that rules are subject to GM discretion' date=' and having people repeat that to me. The book would be 20% thinner if you took out every repetition of that phrase.[/quote']

 

I perceive a similar issue. That phrase is always there, but rarely with any explanation. So we tell the novice GM "this could be problematic" but not why or how it could be problematic. This gives the novice a host of danger signs, but no guide to interpreting them so as to avoid the danger and assess what would be best for his game. Why not TELL the GM that "telepathy can demolish mystery scenarios, so if you expect your game to include a lot of mysteries, you want to closely monitor purchases of this power"?

 

The old Wings of the Valkyrie scenario has a comment that meetings with the planners behind the scenario are deliberate, so the players can get that "We shook hands with the villain" effect. But, if the heroes have a power that would bust the scenario by meeting the mastermind in a different context, these meetings should be written out. Give the GM's a better description of the problems that could arise - the instructions and guidelines so they can better use the toolkit.

[Tonio]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

What I don't like about Knockback is how it doesn't scale at all.

 

A 14d6 EB is guaranteed to knock back anyone without knockback resisting abilities, regardless of whether we're talking Normals, Heroes, Superheroes, or Absurd 5000pt Superbeings. We ran into this a while ago, during a Galactic Superheroes campaign. The characters were built on 600 pts, and usually had enough defenses to withstand serious punishment, yet were being knocked back practically every hit. It rarely resulted in any damage, but it was annoying. My first thought was that you should use BODY after defenses to determine knockback... but that's broken, too. The problem is probably a perceptual one: characters that powerful should probably buy KB Resistance as well as high defenses to represent how they can just ignore smaller stuff... but since KB Resistance isn't a Characteristic, we all sorta glossed over it and forgot it. =/

[NestorDRod]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

What I don't like about Knockback is how it doesn't scale at all.

 

A 14d6 EB is guaranteed to knock back anyone without knockback resisting abilities, regardless of whether we're talking Normals, Heroes, Superheroes, or Absurd 5000pt Superbeings. We ran into this a while ago, during a Galactic Superheroes campaign. The characters were built on 600 pts, and usually had enough defenses to withstand serious punishment, yet were being knocked back practically every hit. It rarely resulted in any damage, but it was annoying. My first thought was that you should use BODY after defenses to determine knockback... but that's broken, too. The problem is probably a perceptual one: characters that powerful should probably buy KB Resistance as well as high defenses to represent how they can just ignore smaller stuff... but since KB Resistance isn't a Characteristic, we all sorta glossed over it and forgot it. =/

 

Actually, if I recall correctly, you can use STR to resist Knockback, but you have to explicitly call it.

 

Of course, this may be a deprecated rule in 5e. Wouldn't be the first time I've suffered from version-itis...

[Tonio]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Actually, if I recall correctly, you can use STR to resist Knockback, but you have to explicitly call it.

 

Of course, this may be a deprecated rule in 5e. Wouldn't be the first time I've suffered from version-itis...

 

Think so, as well as Movement if applicable (useful if you're flying). But it uses up an action, which is even worse if you need to Abort to it. =/

[SteveZilla]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

characters that powerful should probably buy KB Resistance as well as high defenses to represent how they can just ignore smaller stuff...

 

Bingo! Just because an effect is minimal at one power level doens't mean it will remain so at all power levels. Knockback is kinda like Gravity in that respect. At low levels it's okay, but at higher levels you start to see precession in a planet's orbit (Mercury), and eventually you get to the point of it causing a Black Hole.

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

What I don't like about Knockback is how it doesn't scale at all.

 

A 14d6 EB is guaranteed to knock back anyone without knockback resisting abilities, regardless of whether we're talking Normals, Heroes, Superheroes, or Absurd 5000pt Superbeings. We ran into this a while ago, during a Galactic Superheroes campaign. The characters were built on 600 pts, and usually had enough defenses to withstand serious punishment, yet were being knocked back practically every hit. It rarely resulted in any damage, but it was annoying. My first thought was that you should use BODY after defenses to determine knockback... but that's broken, too. The problem is probably a perceptual one: characters that powerful should probably buy KB Resistance as well as high defenses to represent how they can just ignore smaller stuff... but since KB Resistance isn't a Characteristic, we all sorta glossed over it and forgot it. =/

 

Bingo! Just because an effect is minimal at one power level doens't mean it will remain so at all power levels. Knockback is kinda like Gravity in that respect. At low levels it's okay' date=' but at higher levels you start to see precession in a planet's orbit (Mercury), and eventually you get to the point of it causing a Black Hole.[/quote']

 

Indeed - I fail to see how More Character Points will automatically equate to More Powerful Physically type situations.

 

I have a Star Hero Character approaching 250 pts, compared to a Normal they're a Low Powered Super, yet still completely human.

 

Things like KB Resistance are completely an artifact of a Campaigns Setting and Power - and not Points.