D&D 4th

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Does my evaluation seem right to you? If it is wrong then I may need to go back and take a second look but judging from reviews, previews, and the reports of the ungagged playtesters that I think the evaluation is fairly accurate.

 

That is a fair summation. It is much more gamist than 3rd or 2nd. And yeah if you want low magic where characters don't do much, D&D is definitely not for you. I love high fantasy (heck I run my Fantasy Hero games at 250 points) so I really like the default approach.

 

I also like to have my fantasy taverns look like the cantina from star wars. D&D will do this well. However it would be really easy to make D&D very human centric.

[Inu]

Re: D&D 4th

 

That is a fair summation. It is much more gamist than 3rd or 2nd.

I wouldn't even say it's more gamist; I'd say it's more honest about its gamism. All the past editions were full of '1/day', '3/day', 'unlimited, but only once a fight' abilities. The new edition, it seems to me, is just codifying that stuff... as well as overhauling the healing system so that it actually works with the abstraction of hp all along -- IE, not needing healing spells to recover one's confidence (one of the elements of hp since 1st ed).

 

D&D has always been gamist over simulationist. If someone's looking for simulationist, like Eosin, then they probably never wanted to play D&D at all. If the new system can be CONSISTENTLY gamist, without totally abandoning any link to simulationism, then I'll probably enjoy it more than ever.

[Eosin]

Re: D&D 4th

 

D&D has always been gamist over simulationist. If someone's looking for simulationist, like Eosin, then they probably never wanted to play D&D at all. If the new system can be CONSISTENTLY gamist, without totally abandoning any link to simulationism, then I'll probably enjoy it more than ever.

 

I enjoyed Birthright.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: D&D 4th

 

And Doug: what makes you think people have not looked at the previews and information yet?

Mostly because some people have been saying exactly the same things that were complained about months ago on the D&D Discussion Boards, when little concrete information was known about the game. It almost seemed as if I had fallen through at time warp.

 

If you don't like what you see in the game, there's more specific content available to rail against now.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I wouldn't even say it's more gamist; I'd say it's more honest about its gamism. All the past editions were full of '1/day', '3/day', 'unlimited, but only once a fight' abilities. The new edition, it seems to me, is just codifying that stuff... as well as overhauling the healing system so that it actually works with the abstraction of hp all along -- IE, not needing healing spells to recover one's confidence (one of the elements of hp since 1st ed).

 

Good points.

 

I love the new healing system, personally. With HP being abstracted that way (or again, being explicitly defined as abstracted that way), you can get effects like:

A bunch of demoralized soldiers about to quit completely exhausted then the captain gives a rousing speech "Come on you devil dogs", and they charge the hill. A warlord using an ability to let allies use healing surges.

Or the character is feeling demoralized and doesn't feel he can win the fight and gets in a really good shot, and realized he can win (The fighter healing surge when he hits an opponent)

Or someone else on the team feeling that way, and seeing the fighter in the group do something so amazing that it inspires him to extra energy and enthusiasm (a teammate hits someone you get a healing surge).

 

When you can mentally fold your head around the idea that HP cover health, endurance, attitude and such, healing surges really make sense, and can work for great roleplaying.

[NestorDRod]

Re: D&D 4th

 

The key point is' date=' at least to YOU it seems that way. Not to me. Not to lots of other folks. To me, it looks like you're setting up an artificially subjective criteria to justify a dislike of the game. I have a general dislike of blanket statements on subjects of taste. However, it's possible I'm misreading your intent as this is an imperfect medium for communication. If so, I heartily apologize.[/quote']

 

No, it's all right. I personally dislike D&D because I feel that it is becoming (if not already there), a game in which roleplaying is done as opposed to a RPG, but I don't claim that to be more than my personal opinion, and I apologize if my statement implied it was more than that.

 

So, not being a D&D-phile, I'll graciously back out of the thread and let y'all continue with your discussion.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

No' date=' it's all right. I personally dislike D&D because I feel that it is becoming (if not already there), a game in which roleplaying is done as opposed to a RPG, but I don't claim that to be more than my personal opinion, and I apologize if my statement implied it was more than that. [/quote']

 

I don't see how this edition is any more or any less of an RPG than the older editions. D&D has never had role-playing hard-wired into character generation (like HERO or GURPS do); it's always been somewhat of an afterthought* rules-wise.

 

*Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[NestorDRod]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I don't see how this edition is any more or any less of an RPG than the older editions. D&D has never had role-playing hard-wired into character generation (like HERO or GURPS do); it's always been somewhat of an afterthought* rules-wise.

 

*Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

True. Of course, I have gotten into some rather heated discussions with folks when I make that statement.

 

And you're right. If that's what you want out of your game, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I guess my discontent stems from the fact that, despite the fact that roleplaying is not its focus, D&D is still considered the representative system for RPGs.

 

And I said I would shut up. Shutting up now.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I guess my discontent stems from the fact that' date=' despite the fact that roleplaying is not its focus, D&D is still considered the representative system for RPGs. [/quote']

 

The best thing isn't always the most popular thing. And vice versa.

[Theron]

Re: D&D 4th

 

The best thing isn't always the most popular thing. And vice versa.

 

Absolutely. And sometimes you need a hammer, and sometimes you need a screwdriver. Thing is, I've played in Hero System games that were of the "count every hex, calculate every modifier" tactical exercise that seems to be D&D's norm these days. I've also played in D&D games where we didn't roll a die for hours because we were relying entirely on role play.

 

I'll agree that there's a lot in 4th edition I don't recognize as part of my personal vision of D&D. But there's a lot of ways in which I'm looking forward to it. Right now, my only regular gaming fix is a weekly D&D game that is, by the necessity of scheduling, VERY gamist in outlook. We tend to do more roleplaying via email during the week than we manage at the table (we only have three hours each week of table time, and there can be as many as nine players, counting the GM). A lot of the new stuff in D&D looks really interesting from the perspective of someone who likes playing "tanks" and wants more options without having to wait until 15th level to get them.

 

(On the other hand, right now, we're playing a game set in Sharn from the Eberron setting that I dearly wish was using Fantasy Hero instead of 3.5)

[sbarron]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I love the new healing system, personally. With HP being abstracted that way (or again, being explicitly defined as abstracted that way), you can get effects like:

A bunch of demoralized soldiers about to quit completely exhausted then the captain gives a rousing speech "Come on you devil dogs", and they charge the hill. A warlord using an ability to let allies use healing surges.

Or the character is feeling demoralized and doesn't feel he can win the fight and gets in a really good shot, and realized he can win (The fighter healing surge when he hits an opponent)

Or someone else on the team feeling that way, and seeing the fighter in the group do something so amazing that it inspires him to extra energy and enthusiasm (a teammate hits someone you get a healing surge).

 

When you can mentally fold your head around the idea that HP cover health, endurance, attitude and such, healing surges really make sense, and can work for great roleplaying.

What about when I hit you in the head, from behind, with my ax, to start combat? Is that simulated well? Maybe only if I'm a rogue? I guess getting killed before the fight even starts isn't very heroic or fun...

 

Ok, I'm being sarcastic. But this whole model of taking damage, dealing damage, and healing damage just seems bizarre to me. Is it me, or does it seem to be designed to keep fights going longer? I can't see how that's a good thing...HERO has long been the butt of all jokes because of its lengthy combats. Maybe D&D 4th wants a shot at the title?

 

In a MMORPG, keeping fights going means making more money. What does it mean in a table top game?

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

In a MMORPG' date=' keeping fights going means making more money. What does it mean in a table top game?[/quote']

 

More opportunities to have your character do cool stuff?

[Old Man]

Re: D&D 4th

 

You know, it's really amusing that hit points, that artifact of Chainmail's miniatures gaming roots, are still going strong thirty five years later with all these ludicrous contortions to try and have them still make sense. At this point they might as well start calling it 'morale'.

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

 

In a MMORPG, keeping fights going means making more money. What does it mean in a table top game?

 

that the description of a 4e game session should be done in 'leet' speak?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: D&D 4th

 

More opportunities to have your character do cool stuff?

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

You know' date=' it's really amusing that hit points, that artifact of Chainmail's miniatures gaming roots, are still going strong thirty five years later with all these ludicrous contortions to try and have them still make sense. At this point they might as well start calling it 'morale'.[/quote']

 

To a point yes. Hit points have always been this nebulous "Luck and cunning and will to live and body mass ect" but weapons were just physical damage. Now they made the damage from weapons, and the healing system use the same abstractions hit points do. It's consistant at least.

 

And morale is part of hit points - when the Warlord uses his ability that lets others "heal" themselves with a healing surge - a solid SFX for that is an inspiring speech.

 

I actually like it.

[teh bunneh]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I remember, back in the days when AD&D 2nd edition came out, I was reading the chapter on rolling your stats. They had (IIRC) a sidebar titled something like, "This character is useless!"

 

The gist of it was that you could create interesting and playable characters who had only so-so stats. It talked about how you could take that 14 and put it into your INT, giving you a young, not-great-but-potentially-promising wizard. Or put it into DEX and you've got a quick-on-his-feet young thief, or into CHA and you've got a friendly, jokesy bard. And that 6 you rolled? There's all sorts of stuff you could do with it -- your wizard might be heavyset and kinda slow (DEX), your bard might be a fun guy but sort of dense (INT), your thief might be spry but scrawny (STR).

 

Man, it was just a short paragraph, a quick aside, but it was a revelation to me. Spending time coming up with a background and personality that explained why your stats were the way they were? Gaming could be about more than just being the toughest/smartest/strongest badass in the world? There was still plenty of room to play "Ultimate Badass," but now... now it wasn't required. Wow. It was a revolutionary concept at the time (at least, to me).

 

I don't know. All this emphasis on Cool Stuff and Awesome Powers seems like a step backwards, to me. But obviously, I'm not their core audience anymore.

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

 

And morale is part of hit points - when the Warlord uses his ability that lets others "heal" themselves with a healing surge - a solid SFX for that is an inspiring speech.

 

 

 

So, a person can be brought back from a really horrible state by inspiring speech. So, logically, a really scary speech should lower the morale of a target. So I can see some class or ability that lets you literally talk someone to death.

 

 

Thats it, sign me up for the Politician Class!

 

Beware my Vorpal +5 Straw Man Argument, and my deadly +3 Retort of Wounding!

[teh bunneh]

Re: D&D 4th

 

So, a person can be brought back from a really horrible state by inspiring speech. So, logically, a really scary speech should lower the morale of a target. So I can see some class or ability that lets you literally talk someone to death.

 

Thats it, sign me up for the Politician Class!

 

Beware my Vorpal +5 Straw Man Argument, and my deadly +3 Retort of Wounding!

 

I would play that game.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: D&D 4th

 

So' date=' a person can be brought back from a really horrible state by inspiring speech. [/quote']

 

Considering it isn't even seen as having taken physical damage until you lose half your hit points (a state called "Bloodied") yeah.

 

We've seen it in movies - the platoon is tired, weary, and can't go on anymore, they can barely move. Then the sgt gets up and makes some sort of amazing speech, and they find the energy to charge. The D&D healing structure allows that kind of thing - something D&D never could model before.

 

I understand you don't like it, and some of the assumptions can lead to real silliness (I love the politician class idea), but I think it is the best version of D&D. And I've played every one (although I didn't play much of 2nd I hated that version).

[sbarron]

Re: D&D 4th

 

More opportunities to have your character do cool stuff?

...while fighting. Virtua Fighter 2 didn't hassle me with that roleplaying non-sense, either. Stun Palm of Doom! Is that what you mean by "cool stuff?"

[Susano]

Re: D&D 4th

 

See, in Hero it would be Aid to END & STUN, Incantations ("Who wants to live forever?").

[NestorDRod]

Re: D&D 4th

 

See' date=' in Hero it would be Aid to END & STUN, Incantations ("Who wants to live forever?").[/quote']

 

Or you could add Gestures, for pulling back the charging handle on your firearm.

 

"Let's rock."

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

...while fighting. Virtua Fighter 2 didn't hassle me with that roleplaying non-sense' date=' either. Stun Palm of Doom! Is that what you mean by "cool stuff?"[/quote']

 

If you don't like fighting stuff, don't play RPGs where fighting stuff happens.

 

Stun Palm of Doom sounds like what monk characters have been doing since 1st Edition AD&D. It's a good idea if every class had cool options like that.

[mayapuppies]

Re: D&D 4th

 

D&D4e = Tabletop Dungeonsiege

 

Now with more and improved Cool Moves

 

D&D4e; Tastes Great. Less Filling.

[mayapuppies]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I give it a hard time, but I am seriously interested in it as a replacement for Warhammer Fantasy.