We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

[Chris-M]

Let's say a buddy (who's a decent GM) says he's going to start up a new Fantasy Hero campaign. How important is it to you that his fantasy world has the standard elves-dwarves-orcs assortment of fantasy races? Or to flip it around, how disappointed are you if you hear it's not going to have the standard elves-dwarves-orcs lineup?

 

How do you feel about game worlds that feature more or less the standard assortment of races but give them different names and/or change them in generally not terribly significant ways?

 

How do you feel if the world has a mix of standard and more-like-Star-Wars-aliens races? Is it weird having the cliche next to the extremely different/unusual?

 

How do you feel about fantasy game worlds that have a slate of non-human races that are all very unusual and non-standard?

 

I know that the politically gamer correct answer is that what's important is how good the campaign is, building interesting characters, how good a job the GM does of making the world come to life, etc., etc. And of course, that's all true. But all of that aside, it's okay to say how you really feel. Let it out! If you have to have halflings, admit it. If it kind of bothers you when the GM gets too creative with his fantasy races, that's okay. If you hate the cliches and will hurl if you see one more half-orc, we want you to share!

[pinecone]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I don't care if it has any "aliens" at all...elves etc Is a classic...but so over used it's almost Too familiar...

 

I myself have used the Sidhe, but as weird scary NPC types, and weird fomorian mutants. But PC's were all human (perhaps a blush of fae blood at most...)

[Shadowsoul]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I don't mind Elves and Dwarves etc but would be much more interested in a fantasy campaign with unusual or original races. New twists on old races can be pretty cool as well, such as the dinosaur riding halflings of Eberron.

[Jongluer]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I like the standard assortment of fantasy races since it's a solid guideline for character creation, and has become so well known that people have an idea of how their Dwarf or Elf or Orc is going to be.

I'd also love to be in a game where the standard fantasy races were replaced with rarely seen or completely original fantasy races. If the GM did a good job of conveying how they acted, their cultural values, etc. it could make for games just as good as if the players were using the traditional stand-bys we've all known for years.

As for mixing the two, I don't think I'd play in such a game. Would be just a little too much insanity for me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I've actually been kind of wanting to play in a Fantasy World without any other races, unless their some kind of monster.

 

But really, most of the time I don't much care what races are or aren't in the game world.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

My long running ( several decades) has none of the traditional races. The Sidhe showed up as scary beings a few times but the pcs are definitely in a human world ( If you count Highlander immortals, vampires and werewolves as such) . Seriously the world is very human with creatures and monsters but no other "normal" races. they're lizard men and snake men out there but they're basically monsters. I like fantasy worlds which have there own feel myself.

[Old Man]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Execution matters more than mere presence, IMO. Example: Halflings? Fine. Kender? Not fine.

[teh bunneh]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Games with the standard elf/dwarf/halfling trilogy are fine with me. Games that rename them or add a twist are OK, too ("Elves are called Sidhe, and they're very evil/powerful/blue-skinned/whatever"). Games that remove one or more, or add some new ones are cool ("There's no Dwarves, but there are half-giants and lion-people"). Games where it's humans-only are fine.

 

What I don't care for are worlds where the GM is just pulling things out of his donkey. "The dominant race on this continent is the Bla'fl'thuzi, which are sort of like beach-balls with a single leg, except they walk on their hands and they have no sense of smell." I want to game, not to study alien physiology.

 

Skyrealms of Jorunn was =teh_suxX0rz because of that.

 

I suppose I like the Star Wars RPG, which is basically fantasy in space, and it had a buttload of weird races. But my group just tended to ignore Lucas' more stupid ideas and just went with what we liked.

[Nolgroth]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I have no problems with running a setting with non-humans in it. As long as they are not too weird, as teh bunneh, pointed out. I would like to take a look at Sky Realms of Jorune just to see how bad it is. All I know of it is half-remembered pictures in old Dragon magazines that showed an anthropomorphic bear and a human squatting over a fire or maybe a map.

 

I have wanted, for some time, to run a setting with humans only. I was building one based on bloodlines that made pacts with ancient supernatural forces. I kind of stalled on that because it reminded me too much of White Wolf concepts. It also felt like I was cramming "kewl" racial abilities that might be found in non-human races in other games. I decided to halt the project until I could really sit back and examine what I want to do with it.

 

EDIT: Just glanced over a wiki about SkyRealms of Jorune. Just on the initial skim through the races section, I'd image that I would not be interested at all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Games with the standard elf/dwarf/halfling trilogy are fine with me. Games that rename them or add a twist are OK, too ("Elves are called Sidhe, and they're very evil/powerful/blue-skinned/whatever"). Games that remove one or more, or add some new ones are cool ("There's no Dwarves, but there are half-giants and lion-people"). Games where it's humans-only are fine.

 

What I don't care for are worlds where the GM is just pulling things out of his donkey. "The dominant race on this continent is the Bla'fl'thuzi, which are sort of like beach-balls with a single leg, except they walk on their hands and they have no sense of smell." I want to game, not to study alien physiology.

 

Skyrealms of Jorunn was =teh_suxX0rz because of that.

 

I suppose I like the Star Wars RPG, which is basically fantasy in space, and it had a buttload of weird races. But my group just tended to ignore Lucas' more stupid ideas and just went with what we liked.

 

I don't mind some really weird stuff sometimes. In fact it can be interesting.

 

What I have found however is that many GMs who want to introduce such weird races have a very clear vision of what they want, coupled with an extremely poor ability to present that vision in any meaningful way - so there's sudden and massive disconnects when the GM pulls something random out of their donkey and expect the players to keep up.

[Nolgroth]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

What I have found however is that many GMs who want to introduce such weird races have a very clear vision of what they want' date=' coupled with an extremely poor ability to present that vision in any meaningful way - [/quote']What are you trying to say?

[Markdoc]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I wouldn't be disappointed by playing in a game without Elves/Dwarves/Gnomes, etc any more than I'd be disappointed by playing agame with them in.

 

As far as variation and novelty go, though, they add about as much as saying the game has swords and castles.

 

cheers, Mark

[Chris-M]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I actually liked Skyrealms of Jorune a great deal, although I think it's more of a science fantasy/planetary romance (which I am predisposed to like because it's hard to find well-conceived, original, and well-designed instances of those genres).

 

That said, I completely understand what teh bunneh and ghost-angel have said about the GMs busting out their completely original/unusual non-human races. I've actually wanted to build a fantasy setting with completely original non-human races, but it's a daunting challenge. On the one hand, if you don't make them fully-conceived and thought-out peoples, you run the risk of them coming off as shallow and one-dimensional ("they're all hot-headed, honor-obsessed warriors!") or, if they're not clearly defined at all, they might come off as fuzzy and vague and incomprehensible. On the other hand, if the GM does too much detailed, nuanced racial design, and tries to force too much of it down the players' throats, you get the "study in alien physiology" effect.

 

So if the GM wants to bust out a stable of original/unusual non-human races, and doesn't want them to be one-quality cliches (although the traditional fantasy non-human races are often one-quality cliches), he has to design them to be nuanced yet easily-understood conceptually without overwhelming the players with "The Ecology of..." style info. Which is not easy to do (as proven by the parade of easily-forgettable alien races one finds in many sci-fi RPGs, although I think players in sci-fi games are a little more patient with or accepting of weird/unusual/original non-human races than fantasy gamers in general).

 

I think that's one reason why I generally favor either using the standard battery of fantasy races (either as-is or with tweaks), or a lineup of completely original races, but not a mix of the two. I've found that the contrast between the two usually reflects badly on one or the other -- if the original races are great, it seems to emphasize the tired, hackneyed nature of the standard races, while if the original races aren't great or are confusing or too complex, they seem annoying in contrast to the comfortable, familiar standard races. At least that's been my experience to date.

[Ragnarok]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I go back and forth and this issue. I think that the stock elf/dwarf/etc. is pretty much a basic inclusion for most fantasy games. However, I think it is also just as feasible to tweak the basic understanding of elf/dwarf/etc. to your standards, to give each race a uniqueness you won't necessarily find in other gameworlds.

 

At the same time, I think it's perfectly possible to forgo elves and dwarves and the like, and substitute them with more creative creatures. I do have a problem with overly-creative creatures that are just plain unbelievable - kind of like the abstract art of creature creation.

 

With that said, I am running a Norse campaign which does have elves and dwarves and giants and all those kinds of things (mostly just because they play a big part in Norse/Germanic mythology and culture,) but I also try to depart from the stereotypical elf/dwarf profile, and I try to feature monsters and creatures that depart from the cookie-cutter elf/dwarf/orc campaign.

 

So basically, elf/dwarf/orc is often a staple of fantasy games, but we should be creative in our approach to them and try to stay away from the stereotypes.

[Ranxerox]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Like Earth girls, Elves, Dwarfs and Orcs are are easy. We are all familiar with them so the GM can introduce them without having to explain much. If a GM wants to have different race, that is great but now the burden is on him (or her) to explain each race and hopefully do so in a way that does not put me to sleep. If the GM does this, everything is cool and it is likely to be richer and more interesting campaign for not going with the standard flavors.

 

That being said, personally, I don't care for it when the GM mixes and matches. If a GM is going to have Zorks and Netterbots, they shouldn't have elves and dwarfs also, IMHO. For that matter, they shouldn't use unicorns or dragons either. They should go with new stuff all the way, though some of the new stuff can share a passing resemblance with some old stuff.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Like Earth girls' date=' Elves, Dwarfs and Orcs are are easy. [/quote']

 

Now that you mention, Earth girls are featured in most of my games as well.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I got sick and tired of the overuse of elves, so I removed them from my homebrew world. A year later, I got sick of the overuse of dwarves, so they left too. Now its just Humans and Halflings, but I've got so many ethnicities of them that no one minds. (When you've got four halflings in the group, and one is an "arab clone", one an "American Indian" clone, a third is taken right from Renaissance France, and the last from the Russia of Ivan the Terrible, no one notices their all playing halflings.)

[Vulcan]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Execution matters more than mere presence' date=' IMO. Example: Halflings? Fine. Kender? Not fine.[/quote']

 

A properly played kender is a great roleplaying oportunity. He can be the comedic influence that keeps a serious game from getting too gritty, especially if he has a resonably tolerant paladin to play the straight man.

 

An improperly played kender is just another thief that steals from the PC's for no better reason than "I'm a thief!":thumbdown

[Vulcan]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Yeah, I've noticed it's very hard to mix a group of traditional races and unusual/unique ones. The two types of races tend to clash pretty badly. In general, either go with the standards, or go with the new races.

 

One notable exception: Michael Stackpole wrote an exceptional fantasy series set in a world with humans and elves, but instead of dwarves had an entirely different race living in the mountains. I reccomend it if anyone really wants to try running a 'mixed' campaign.

 

So, perhaps pulling one standard race and adding one well-thought-out substitute is a possibility?

[Shadowsoul]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Stackpole's Dragoncrown War Cycle is certainly an excellent read.

 

However I'd like to point out that his more recent series 'Age of Discovery' featured entirely new races apart from humans. These races were particularly strange but I think they worked quite well and the series as a whole was quite brilliant.

 

When I design a setting for a game I never include the normal races unless they have been significantly altered eg. Bone Elves. And I have had a go at a setting which didn't even have humans in it, although I did include Dryads as a playable race. I've only ever used this setting in a couple of one off games but I think it was quite well received. I did make a point of including a couple of blander races to go with the more bizarre ones such as the small, optimistic, tribal saurians with inherent psychic abilities.

[Nolgroth]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

An improperly played kender is just another thief that steals from the PC's for no better reason than "I'm a thief!":thumbdown

Or worse, somebody who is disruptive and attention grabbing. In one of my very old groups, we had a player that modeled his style of play on his perceptions of what kender would do. In many ways he played the style brilliantly; too brilliantly.

 

We'd change up DMs (AD&D 2nd) and his buddy would provide him with items like a wand of wonder or similar things. The player, in turn, would use these in the single most disruptive manner possible. It effectively prohibited any real role-playing, by redirecting the focus away from whomever had center spotlight. It even ruined combat because more often than not, something bad or distracting would happen to fellow party members.

 

We hates kenders because of Him. I cannot even lower my blinders to give another player a fair shake at playing a kender. My impression of them will always be colored by the grotesque misuse of that one (now long gone) player. And yes, it is the player's fault. Doesn't change my perception of kender in any way.

[Nolgroth]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Yeah' date=' I've noticed it's very hard to mix a group of traditional races and unusual/unique ones. The two types of races tend to clash pretty badly. In general, either go with the standards, or go with the new races.[/quote']I think the single biggest thing is that the author present the races within the setting and how they interact. The thri-kreen from Dark Sun were not so difficult to use alongside elves and dwarves, because you had an idea of how they interacted with society.

 

In this case, the little capsule opinions about the other factions in some games (White Wolf) are pretty useful.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Yeah' date=' I've noticed it's very hard to mix a group of traditional races and unusual/unique ones. The two types of races tend to clash pretty badly. In general, either go with the standards, or go with the new races.[/quote']

 

I was going to say that I did both, but the traditional ones I changed so much that they were probably not recognizable.

 

I killed off the Elves.

I kept the Half-Elves, although many of them are actually mostly humans who use magic to appear and act elven.

I killed off the Dwarves, although there are some humans with dwarven blood.

The pig-snout Orcs died off, the more human looking Orcs survived.

 

The new races are anthropomorphic animals such as Cat Girls, Bear Men, Bee People, etc.

[Shigeru]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I think the single biggest thing is that the author present the races within the setting and how they interact. The thri-kreen from Dark Sun were not so difficult to use alongside elves and dwarves, because you had an idea of how they interacted with society.

 

In this case, the little capsule opinions about the other factions in some games (White Wolf) are pretty useful.

 

Totally agreed, but you also have to trust your players.

 

In most fantasy games I have run, I only allowed human player characters. THere was just not enough RP experience among most of my players to trust that they could play a different species/race without reverting to "short, drunk humans" and "pointy eared conservationist humans" for dwarves and elves.

[Nolgroth]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

In most fantasy games I have run' date=' I only allowed human player characters. THere was just not enough RP experience among most of my players to trust that they could play a different species/race without reverting to "short, drunk humans" and "pointy eared conservationist humans" for dwarves and elves.[/quote']In some ways, playing the stereotype can be fun, but after the fifth or sixth Dargoth Battlehammer the Champion of Mugs, I see what you mean. The trick is layers. Sure, have the gruff, dwarvish spirit pounding guy with an ax. Just show that there is more underneath the surface from time to time.

 

And how come my elvish stereotype is a magic hungry, would-be Elric clone. I always understood the elven conservationalist, but I never "got it." Much more fun to play elves as aggressive and driven by the accumulation of power.