We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

[Old Man]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

There is that. With a kender in the game' date=' everyone has to keep a sense of humor.[/quote']

 

This is exactly the problem. Comic relief characters annoy me. I don't like them in my fiction or films and I sure as hell don't need them in my RPGs. It would be difficult for a kender to be played any other way.

[Vulcan]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Fair enough.

[Markdoc]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

This is exactly the problem. Comic relief characters annoy me. I don't like them in my fiction or films and I sure as hell don't need them in my RPGs. It would be difficult for a kender to be played any other way.

 

Oh, I don't know: what about "field rations"?

 

cheers, Mark

[CTaylor]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Well, they're OK in the campaign setting I suppose, but they'd be silly in my world. Jarring and awkward, something that stood out like Santa Claus showing up in a war movie and handing out presents.

[palaskar]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I have no problem with "standard" races if they're interesting. See Dwarf Fortress's stupid, prone to possession, can-be-killed by carps dwarves, frex.

 

That said, I prefer races that fit the setting. Sword and sorcery? All humans, or nearly so.

 

Trying to reinvent Tolkein? Don't do it. Break Tolkein into small pieces (preferably with a large hammer and extreme prejudice) and see what comes up with your take on a detailed, "metaphorical" (i.e., expressing some philosophical/religious views).

 

I did this for my Fifth Hour setting at Paizo.com. (If everyone will permit the brief promotion.) "Gonzo" races (though not as crazy as Tekumel's), small languages with their own orthographies, sub-cultures for races, consistent magic system...the whole nine yards.

[DusterBoy]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I once came up with the DA-Rani - a race of "lizard-men" I had modelled on dromeosaurs (ie: velociraptor and Utahraptor) only more anthropomorphic and with IR vision, since they lived mostly underground.

[CTaylor]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I prefer familiar with interesting variations. For example, my Dwarves are immune to poison; which seems small but is pretty significant for their culture. Dwarves aren't beer swilling drunkards or partiers, they can't get drunk. They drink alcohol for the flavor, so their booze can be strong or weak, but has incredibly good flavor and aroma. They spice their foods with things that would kill a human because the toxins add intriguing flavor.

 

Stuff like that can go a long ways toward making the races distinct but familiar.

[Maur]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I prefer familiar with interesting variations. For example' date=' my Dwarves are immune to poison; which seems small but is pretty significant for their culture. Dwarves aren't beer swilling drunkards or partiers, they can't [i']get[/i] drunk. They drink alcohol for the flavor, so their booze can be strong or weak, but has incredibly good flavor and aroma. They spice their foods with things that would kill a human because the toxins add intriguing flavor.

 

Stuff like that can go a long ways toward making the races distinct but familiar.

I like this a lot more than someone who does away with them completely because they are "boring" or "unimaginative".

[Acme]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

if you don't make them fully-conceived and thought-out peoples' date=' you run the risk of them coming off as shallow and one-dimensional ("they're all hot-headed, honor-obsessed warriors!") or, if they're not clearly defined at all, they might come off as fuzzy and vague and incomprehensible.[/quote']

 

A good friend (and still my favourite GM) ran several games in what started as a basic Tolkien/DnD setting, but added several NPC races for 'flavour.' They all started off as one-dimensional (for example; "sentient golems", or "like troll dolls, but halfling-sized, not cute and with prehensile hair") but developed backgrounds during gameplay. They could be player characters, but anyone wanting to play one had to work with the GM to develop culture, attitudes etc. This way, popular races became richer and evolved with the world, and unpopular races were reduced to "walk-ons" if at all.

 

(The golems became an ancient dying race trying to recreate the magics that made them since they cannot reproduce, and the trolls became a mischievous woodland faerie folk, for example)

 

Those who still wanted to play 'Classic' races could do so, with all the premade background that implied, or they could add to the game world mythos with something new. (Elves and Humans became very rare in this world indeed...)

[Acme]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

So basically' date=' elf/dwarf/orc is often a staple of fantasy games, but we should be creative in our approach to them and try to stay away from the stereotypes. [/quote']

 

The danger here is not to go too far the other way. Elves, Dwarves, etc. became popular because of these stereotypes. Often in games people say "not another surly Dwarf" or, "I don't want to play another Fireball-slinging Wizard" with the result that NOBODY plays them. It is occasionally acceptable to play one of the classic Fantasy tropes. IMHO the danger in Fantasy games is that the exceptions become cliche. (Drizzt was 'cool' because nobody had ever done it before, now everybody is, which makes it annoying...)

[Shadowsoul]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

The danger here is not to go too far the other way. Elves' date=' Dwarves, etc. became popular [i']because[/i] of these stereotypes. Often in games people say "not another surly Dwarf" or, "I don't want to play another Fireball-slinging Wizard" with the result that NOBODY plays them. It is occasionally acceptable to play one of the classic Fantasy tropes. IMHO the danger in Fantasy games is that the exceptions become cliche. (Drizzt was 'cool' because nobody had ever done it before, now everybody is, which makes it annoying...)

 

True enough. I would never argue that as GMs and roleplayers we have a moral duty to create new races or tweak the old ones. I'm just saying that I personally find it a lot more fun and interesting than simply picking up the stereotypes that others have created.

[Curufea]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Personally, I want the Thief roleplaying game to come out with all their creatures...

[Chris-M]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

A good friend (and still my favourite GM) ran several games in what started as a basic Tolkien/DnD setting, but added several NPC races for 'flavour.' They all started off as one-dimensional (for example; "sentient golems", or "like troll dolls, but halfling-sized, not cute and with prehensile hair") but developed backgrounds during gameplay. They could be player characters, but anyone wanting to play one had to work with the GM to develop culture, attitudes etc. This way, popular races became richer and evolved with the world, and unpopular races were reduced to "walk-ons" if at all.

 

(The golems became an ancient dying race trying to recreate the magics that made them since they cannot reproduce, and the trolls became a mischievous woodland faerie folk, for example)

 

Those who still wanted to play 'Classic' races could do so, with all the premade background that implied, or they could add to the game world mythos with something new. (Elves and Humans became very rare in this world indeed...)

 

That's a very cool way to go if you have the right group and the right GM. I like that idea very much.

[Old Man]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Yeah, that's cool. Of course, if you have the wrong group and the wrong GM, then you have ifrit-drow-mindflayer halfbreeds running amok.

[Chris-M]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Yeah' date=' that's cool. Of course, if you have the wrong group and the wrong GM, then you have ifrit-drow-mindflayer halfbreeds running amok.[/quote']

 

True. Although it's amazing how often you get that anyway in what are supposed to be "standard" D&D games. (Ooooh, I just thought of a new thread for the "General Roleplaying" forum!)

[SteveZilla]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Oh, I don't know: what about "field rations"?

 

cheers, Mark

 

Self-propelled field rations, at that.

[Jkeown]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

I have many races. In fact, I've been thinking of cutting back since no one plays anything but Humans and Elowan and Dharzooni in my games. As you can see from the link, I renamed all the races, and Half-Elves are a true-breeding race, not one-off hybrids. To confuse matters, Half-Elves do happen, and most folks call them Elowan out of ignorance.

 

I'm about to revise the setting and put out a new guide (the old one is 10 years old and only 144 pages. The new one could go twice that length!).

Races are one thing I'm considering overhauling. Forever (since 1986 at least) every intelligent critter has had a player-accessible package deal. Why I do not know... completeness, perhaps. Also, I hate the idea of a Non-Player Race. If the campaign point levels allow, shouldn't you be allowed to play anything? No?

 

We'll see. I think the players will like the new book, even with NPC races.

[Vanguard00]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Let's say a buddy (who's a decent GM) says he's going to start up a new Fantasy Hero campaign. How important is it to you that his fantasy world has the standard elves-dwarves-orcs assortment of fantasy races?

It's not important at all. I look for a developed world as a basis for a developed story. Elves, dwarves and orcs are all fine if there's a reason for them being there.

Or to flip it around, how disappointed are you if you hear it's not going to have the standard elves-dwarves-orcs lineup?

Same answer. The world, the story and the potential for fun is the thing, not the trappings of familiarity.

 

How do you feel about game worlds that feature more or less the standard assortment of races but give them different names and/or change them in generally not terribly significant ways?

I'm okay with that if there's an in-game reason for it. Tree-hugging bow-wielding elves that live for a 1000 years with no good in-game reason don't make sense. A race created by the gods to be caretakers and thus have an affiliation for the land and live a long, long time makes sense. I've played more Tolkien-esque games than anything else, but a few with different and/or no other races, and I'm cool with that. Just make it plausible.

 

How do you feel if the world has a mix of standard and more-like-Star-Wars-aliens races? Is it weird having the cliche next to the extremely different/unusual?

In Star Wars you had countless worlds in countless systems to populate the galaxy. In a fantasy world you need a darn good reason to have many random races floating around. I don't believe a single world--even a fantasy one--can support more than a few sentient races, at most, and that's only if they develop independently and completely before mingling. I have just enough anthropology and sociology knowledge to believe that two sentient races developing at the same time in the same place will either fight until one is gone (likely), intermingle to become something new (less likely but possible), or destroy each other. Three or more intelligent races developing on a single world at the same time are bound to come into conflict, so there should be a good reason for their differences.

 

How do you feel about fantasy game worlds that have a slate of non-human races that are all very unusual and non-standard?

Phooey on that. Don't make sense.

 

I use fantasy races to represent certain real-world cultures that I like. I've had elves modeled after feudal Japan with a touch of Mongol thrown in, dwarves modeled after ancient Egypt/Babylon/Sumeria, and halflings that were as much American Indian as Gypsy. They fill a niche in my worlds, not an expectation. Heck, I've even had Orcs be American Indians in that they were the "evil" race for a while but have been integrated into modern society while still trying to retain their own sense of culture and heritage.

 

I love the stereotypes, and I love changing things up and making the familiar not-so-much. Just have it make sense and I'm happy.

[Vulcan]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Writing that down...'orc as native americans... used to be evil but now trying to integrate into modern society...'

 

I may have to use that in a game someday. Thanks for the idea!

[Jkeown]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

My Orcs (Zarku) were made citizens of the Empire by the stroke of somebody's pen. Most of the younger ones don't know or care that they are now citizens, and the older generation is still of the "Empire as Target" mindset.

 

It's a wonderful thing.

[Drhoz]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

My old GM ran two home-brewed settings - one, Sulros, a waterworld with a joint elf-dwarf empire and a state religion based on human sacrifice, and Aurastorm, with a bronze age empire with a healthy slaving industry, brain-damaged dwarven wild-men, and savage jungle elves. The gnolls, ratkin, wemics, half-demons, lizardfolk and humans of the empire got along fine tho - mostly by defending their respective technologies, or living in climates the other races found uncomfortable.

 

PCs in both were fine with the culture - after all, the gods themselves had said sacrifice and slavery were vital, who was going to argue with them? Vitus of Clan Scorpion, since translated into Champions, still thinks emancipation is a ***ing idiotic idea.

[Maelstrom]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Elves, elves, elves. I don't like them, but the players sometimes demand them. So I set a few ground rules.

 

1. Elves are crazy.

2. You have to stay in character.

3. You must audition.

 

To play an elf in my game, you have to be able to channel Stephen, the Irishman from Braveheart, for at least the length of the audition. You do it, you can play an elf. You try to God-mode, or be condescending in a not-funny manner, or pull other airs, you lose the privilege.

[Vulcan]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

In other words, no sterotypical elves in your game.

 

My favorite elven character was orphaned as an infant, and raised by humans. Gave him a very different outlook on life, having outlived his adoptive parents and two full generations of people in the orphanage afterwares while he was just growing to maturity...

[CTaylor]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Having too many PC races is pointless, players will tend not to play most of them and will stick to a tight group of race possibilities to begin with. Plus, since they don't want their characters to die and you can only have so many players at a time, there's a limited number of races that you'll see in a campaign in any case. I used to have over a dozen, but dropped most because really, what's the point?

[Old Man]

Re: We Loves Us Some Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs

 

Because you desperately need a fifth player and the only way he'll play is if he gets to play a Kzinti. Because he's a furry.