What do you think

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

.....................

Expensive? HELL YES! To totally supress someone's REC so that they CANNOT take recoveries should be expensive! Not so much because of it's lethality (an equivalent NND would be far more effective), but because it's frustrating and not fun to play against.

 

I'd disagree here based on recent experience. With role playing, not AEA. Suffocation can add a lot of drama. The game we ware playing in at present has a PC who has a suffocation power (built purely as a NND) and recently featured a villain who could do something similar. Much merriment was had as they tried to turn each other blue.

 

A power like this worried the PCs far more than other powers that were in fact much nastier, and I think that adds considerably to the tension of the game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Welcome to my 1,000th post!

 

The problem I see with suffocation as a separate power is that it is a specific special effect. And HEROS is not supposed to be about powers that cover specific special effects.

 

You mean like the ability to breathe in an unusual environment, immunity to high heat or the lack of a need to breathe?

 

The special effect of a suffocation power is the effect that results in no breathable air being available to the target. That could be water (water breathers should be immune), turning the atmosphere to methane (methane breathers should be immune), removing the atmosphere, blocking the target's respiratory organs (perhaps very limited - could only clog gills, for example) or sealing the target's orifices so air cannot be taken in or expelled.

 

Here's your suffocation build (I've kept limitations to a minimum to allow the maximum number potential builds; limit it yourself to suit how you're suffocating them' date=' be it with a FF bubble around the head or flooding their lungs with water or anything in between):[/quote']

 

Well, let's see where we are.

 

Suppress REC' date=' 20d6 (standard effect: 60 points), NND (appropriate Life Support, +1), 200 AP; Real cost 200 pts. *This covers everyone up to 30 REC; this can be adjusted up or down to suit campaign REC levels*[/quote']

 

Hideously expensive, but that's more an issue of Suppress vs REC than this construct particularly. It is exacerbated by the stupid mechanics under which DOWNGRADING from AVLD (Power Defense +1 1/2) to NND doubles the power's cost. Nevertheless, it fails my first acid test - it is far too expensive for its effectiveness, pricing it out of reasonable reach in all but the highest point games - where REC over 30 will be much more likely.

 

PLUS

Drain END 1 point, Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4) *so we don't have to spend further actions on it*, AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2) *so we don't miss*, Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 10 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), END lost recovers normally (per Recovery rules) if Suppress Ends (-1/2); Real cost 5 pts.

 

How does one price draining 1/2 CP?

 

So, after my REC Suppress hits, the target can evade the END Loss by undertaking a Dive for Cover (to get out of the AoE 1 hex accurate) or Dodge with all levels in DCV. A Triggered attack still needs to hit, so even if that DCV 3 is insignificant (after range modifiers, of course) there is a minimum 1 in 216 chance the "suffocating" target loses no END.

 

That END loss also occurs on my phases, rather than his, which does not match the environmental rules.

 

And if he has a 2 SPD (voluntarily lowered, perhaps) he starts getting END back after 5 minutes (25 turns - as little as 50 END).

 

PLUS

Drain STUN 1 point, Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4), AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2), Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 10 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), STUN lost recovers normally (per Recovery rules) if Suppress Ends (-1/2), Target must be out of END (-1/2); Real cost 4 pts.

 

All the same issues apply as with the END hit. As well, the target could be hit with the END Drain and missed with STUN Drain or vice versa.

 

PLUSDrain BODY 1d6 (Standard Effect 3 points)' date=' Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4), AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2), Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 32 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), Target must be out of END and STUN (-1); Real Cost 11 pts.[/quote']

 

All the same issues as the prior two. As well, a character down 19 BOD doesn't normally recover 2 or 3 every five minutes after the effect ends, so the Drain does not accurately simulate the BOD damage from suffocation.

 

TOTAL

Active Points 252, Real cost 220 pts.

 

Expensive? HELL YES! To totally supress someone's REC so that they CANNOT take recoveries should be expensive! Not so much because of it's lethality (an equivalent NND would be far more effective), but because it's frustrating and not fun to play against.

 

A lot of things are frustrating. Being Mind Controlled or Mental Illusioned is very frustrating. Being KO'd by a lucky shot early in the session is frustrating. Come to think of it, trying to simulate suffocation in Hero is frustrating.

 

Any build that uses the mechanics to eliminate Recovery will, however, be extremely expensive of necessity. Given the relative ineffectiveness of the suffocation effect, should it be that expensive? For the same 220 real points, I could purchase an 11d6 Drain that Drains REC, STUN, END and BOD simultaneously. Rather than removing all your REC, and 5 END (assuming a 5 SPD) in a turn, I can average 154 END, 77 STUN, 38.5 REc and 38.5 BOD, assuming I only hit twice in five shots. Which would be MORE frustrating to play against?

 

One of the useful things that has come out of this discussion is that I've realised I'd like to see a power that can damage END' date=' just like we damage STUN now. Perhaps we could have a +0 advantage 'Damage to END' normal attacks?[/quote']

 

We have Adjustment powers to simulate it, of course, but I don't see a compelling reason we couldn't have such a construct. In fact, what if we expanded it further? Attack powers affect STUN by default, but what if they instead could affect whatever characteristic or power you selected, under the following parameters:

 

- the damage to END is 1:1. The damage to all other abilities is based on their CP cost. So a 12d6 EB vs SPD would roll an average of 42, maybe offset by 22 Defenses, so the target loses 2 SPD (20 character points)

 

- the damage recovers using REC (in CP for items other than END and STUN), even if the ability in question does not normally recover using REC.

 

- As a +0 advantage (or maybe higher), the power can recover 5 CP per PS 12, regardless of whether the target is otherwise entitled to recover, and in addition to any normal recovery. This can be stepped up as is currently the case for adjustments.

 

- the existing ADJ power advantages for damaging more than one thing would also apply.

 

This would eliminate Drain. We could add advantages or limitations to replace the rest of the adjustment powers. No more Power Defense. You want your attack to have a non-standard defense, you can make it NND or AVLD. We'd need to deal with Transform somehow, but it could be very similar.

 

Now, as you point out, it is expensive to build a 'suffocation' build that covers all the bases, primarily because you have no idea what REC you will be facing. That is one of the things that makes a 'flat rate adder/power' an attraction, although I acknowledge that flat rate powers tend to problems with scaling.

 

As to the 'power' being a sfx build' date=' I disagree - I think that 'respiratory impediment' is quite a broad category and could cover having your airways blocked, having breathing gasses removed from your environment, choking, chemical action on your system to prevent oxygen uptake, paralysis of the diaphragm, drowning, vaccuum generation. You might consider it a meta sfx, certainly, but it still covers enough ground to be considered a seperate power/adder or at least 'talent build' IMO.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Remainder snipped for brevity. I note, however, that constructs that don't involve a separate custom ability make Regeneration and Instant Change comparative models of simplicity.

 

One interesting approach suggested in the past was to base the cost of cutting off one`s air supply on the cost of either a Drain or a Suppress of the ability to breathe in an unusual medium. I`m removing your ability to breath oxygen. That resulted in a much lower cost. I`d like to see it playtested for effectiveness. I think the power is much weaker if there is a way to stop it, such as breaking the force wall or entangle causing the effect.

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think

 

I'm thinking a Continuous, Controlled END & STUN Suppress, cumulative with a Triggered BODY Drain/Suppress/NND HKA that triggers when target has non-positive values of END and STUN. Probably with some added seasoning like Must maintain Grab. The Continuous will take care of them RECovering during the turn as being "attacked" would cause their REC to fizzle. Impairing the Post-12 REC is a PITA I'm willing to shine on but since we are Suppressing the target's END & STUN characteristics the maximum capacity is diminishing also.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

..........................

We have Adjustment powers to simulate it, of course, but I don't see a compelling reason we couldn't have such a construct. In fact, what if we expanded it further? Attack powers affect STUN by default, but what if they instead could affect whatever characteristic or power you selected, under the following parameters:

 

- the damage to END is 1:1. The damage to all other abilities is based on their CP cost. So a 12d6 EB vs SPD would roll an average of 42, maybe offset by 22 Defenses, so the target loses 2 SPD (20 character points)

 

- the damage recovers using REC (in CP for items other than END and STUN), even if the ability in question does not normally recover using REC.

 

- As a +0 advantage (or maybe higher), the power can recover 5 CP per PS 12, regardless of whether the target is otherwise entitled to recover, and in addition to any normal recovery. This can be stepped up as is currently the case for adjustments.

 

- the existing ADJ power advantages for damaging more than one thing would also apply.

 

This would eliminate Drain. We could add advantages or limitations to replace the rest of the adjustment powers. No more Power Defense. You want your attack to have a non-standard defense, you can make it NND or AVLD. We'd need to deal with Transform somehow, but it could be very similar.

 

Funnily enough I've been turning the idea of changing the target characteristic/power as a method of re-doing adjustment powers and simplifying things recently.

 

Personally I think it could work. Unfortunatly it is difficult to do a meaningful comparison because, whilst I have a good idea of the sort of level of normal and resistant defences I expect to see - and I know that everyone will have normal and, in some games - resistant defences, I've got no real idea how common power defences is and what the 'average' level is.

 

Still, on the face of it a 12d6 EB would do (against 24 ed, which I consider a decent average) 18 points through defences - slightly less than the 21 points a drain accomplishes (although drain is not ranged, and, like I say, I have no idea what power defence averages) and a huge amount less than supress accomplishes - I can't imagine that average defences go to anything like 24 popints.

 

I might start a new thread on this. Come to think on it, I did, some time ago, and no one really bit. I might have to present it differently

 

 

 

Agreed. Remainder snipped for brevity. I note, however, that constructs that don't involve a separate custom ability make Regeneration and Instant Change comparative models of simplicity.

 

One interesting approach suggested in the past was to base the cost of cutting off one`s air supply on the cost of either a Drain or a Suppress of the ability to breathe in an unusual medium. I`m removing your ability to breath oxygen. That resulted in a much lower cost. I`d like to see it playtested for effectiveness. I think the power is much weaker if there is a way to stop it, such as breaking the force wall or entangle causing the effect.

 

The ability to breathe air would therefore be 5 points, presumably, which would make 'suffocation' very cheap even if you applied, for example, UAA to that. Whilst I know suffocation is not a useful combat attack in that it would take forever to take someone down with it (in Hero terms at least), I still maintain that the removed recoveries are worth a great deal in a combat.

 

I might be overestimating that a little. I doubt most combats exceed 3 full turns at most, which means 3 recoveries and so 3xREC in stun and end, or, for a superhero game, probably it means the loss (non-recovery) of, at most, 45 points, or about the same as 2 to 3 x 12d6 hits and 2 to 3 end suppresses. Actually maybe I'm not underestimating it

 

Whilst the idea is simple and elegant I think it would be too useful at that sort of price.

 

I acknowledge that adjusting rec is nowhere near as powerful as adjusting other characteristics by a similar amount, so I acknowledge that my costings may be 'top end' but I would not be happy to see the cost dip below the 20-25 point range, or you'd see it everywhere.

 

Also as the power doesn't scale it becomes almost de-rigeur at higher point totals or in MPs. Of course as point totals go up, so do LS purchases

 

I might also look at the 'breath holding' rules and change them a bit: perhaps if you have time to grab a breath then you do not start feeling the ill effects until after the next PS12, and each level of extended breathing moves that up the time chart, rather than the way we do it at present.

 

I think that might be a more useful model, and help to mitigate the effects of a suffocation power considerably, whilst still leaving it useful.

 

Finally we might need a 'NND' effect for this: imagine a character that can turn oxygen to CO2 facing off against someone with a sealed suit - the man inside still needs to breathe so if the air in the tanks is converted he will suffer.

 

This would distinguish that sort of character from someone who has no need to breathe because they don;t have that sort of metabolic process - perhaps all their energy comes from stored electricity.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Funnily enough I've been turning the idea of changing the target characteristic/power as a method of re-doing adjustment powers and simplifying things recently.

 

Personally I think it could work. Unfortunatly it is difficult to do a meaningful comparison because, whilst I have a good idea of the sort of level of normal and resistant defences I expect to see - and I know that everyone will have normal and, in some games - resistant defences, I've got no real idea how common power defences is and what the 'average' level is.

 

I'm going to cross post to 6e, L - R, where Power Defense is under discussion.

 

I think that many of these powers would take NND or AVLD, but then we do get "SFX defense", rather than universal power defense.

 

The ability to breathe air would therefore be 5 points' date=' presumably, which would make 'suffocation' very cheap even if you applied, for example, UAA to that. Whilst I know suffocation is not a useful combat attack in that it would take forever to take someone down with it (in Hero terms at least), I still maintain that the removed recoveries are worth a great deal in a combat.[/quote']

 

I think basing the cost on 10 points would be the lowest end, so we now have a range between 10 and 40. A lot depends on how the ability can be shut down. If it's an Entangle adder, and breaking the entangle lets you catch your breath, that's very different from a "once it hits, it stays up indefinitely and there's nothing you can do about it" ability. Paying 10 points for an Adder also means you don't get a price break for Linked.

 

I might be overestimating that a little. I doubt most combats exceed 3 full turns at most' date=' which means 3 recoveries and so 3xREC in stun and end, or, for a superhero game, probably it means the loss (non-recovery) of, at most, 45 points, or about the same as 2 to 3 x 12d6 hits and 2 to 3 end suppresses. Actually maybe I'm not underestimating it [/quote']

 

It needs to be compared with other options for using the points. Let's say instead of adding Suffocate to the Entangle, we instead added a Drain of STUN and END. If the target has a 30 REC, and we can get five drains a turn from that linked power, each one only needs to remove 6 END and 6 STUN to eliminate the benefits of that recovery. That's a pretty typical Supers speed, and a pretty high REC. 40 points would be 1d6 Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2; ended by breaking the entangle), 0 END (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2 - to match the Entangle), Persistent (+1/2 - he can't breathe even if I'm KO'd) Drain. Call NND instead of PowDef a wash. Make 1/3 the points target END and 2/3 target STUN and the power removes 2 END and 2 STUN per attacker's phase.

 

In PS 12, he recovers 5 CP, say 3 STUN and 4 END. He's down 2 STUN and 6 END. Suffocation would leave him down 5 END. Maybe 40 is in the ballpark, even if it is high end. However, there should be some limitation for the noncumulative nature of this ability - I can't hit you three times with Suffocation and triple your per phase damage, where a Continuous drain would.

 

I acknowledge that adjusting rec is nowhere near as powerful as adjusting other characteristics by a similar amount' date=' so I acknowledge that my costings may be 'top end' but I would not be happy to see the cost dip below the 20-25 point range, or you'd see it everywhere.[/quote']

 

It needs playtesting to assess a reasonable cost. I think I'd be OK with a +10 Adder to Entangle or Force Wall, which comes with "break the base power and suffocation ends". Most such powers tend to be fairly easy to break in a couple of phases. The Change Environment adder, which means you need to take out the character using the power to get air back, should be higher cost, and I think your 20 - 25 point range would be a good starting point for that.

 

Also as the power doesn't scale it becomes almost de-rigeur at higher point totals or in MPs. Of course as point totals go up' date=' so do LS purchases [/quote']

 

The Adder is also scaled as the Force Walls and Entangles grow, but so do the breakout powers. In addition, those higher point totals come with higher END and STUN, and more 0 END powers, which will delay the impact of the slow END/STUN loss. But REC is also higher.

 

I think this also goes to 6e.

[Talon]

Re: What do you think

 

If a character takes damage during a Recovery, the Recovery is wasted. Thus, to stop in-Phase Recoveries, you just need to do 1 STUN during each of their Phases. One way to do this would be using the "Differing Modifiers" section of UOO:

 

7 Energy Blast 1d6 (standard effect: 3 STUN, 1 BODY), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), No Normal Defense (LS: Breathing; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Triggered by target getting a Phase; +1), Does BODY (+1) (22 Active Points); only does BODY to unconscious targets (-1), Spending 1 END avoids STUN damage (-1/2), only does 1 STUN (-1/2) - END=0

 

14 Apply EB to others: Custom Power, Usable As Attack (+1) - END=1

 

(Technically someone has the option to take STUN damage rather than END damage, but that seems like a minor issue.)

 

Add an NND / END Drain that does enough damage to cover the post-12 Recoveries and you are good to go.

 

For the "what should 6E do?" perspective, see the A-E powers thread.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What do you think

 

Hmmm. I've been watching this thread carefully and I believe I'm on the side of needing someway to invoke the suffocation/drowning rules on purpose.

 

The problem is that designing it as an attack against characteristics etc ends up being much more expensive than it is probably worth for a combat ability.

 

I've been trying to think what exactly it is that we are trying to do.

 

When someone suffocates they have had the context in which they are designed to operate changed in a significant manner.

 

We have one element in the game that allows us to access the suffocation rules (choke hold) which is pretty much well tied to a specific special effect. However it provides a specialised example which we could try to expand to a general rule.

 

In the case of choke hold there is a STR v STR contest following an attempt to hit. While the STR v STR is maintained the opponent is suffocating and we can invoke the suffocation effects.

 

There are other special effects that we might want to invoke the rules - so how do we charge for them?

 

We look for a contest and a way that the new context might be dispelled. An entangle that suffocates? This is close to the choke hold example. The contest is hitting at a lowered CV (to reflect properly targetting the breathing area) and if successful breathing is restored by breaking the entangle. I would ask for NND style all or nothing defence as well - for example self contained breathing.

 

Cost - I think a +1/2 advantage would probably cut it - the attack would be more limited in size but still be useful if the initial contest was not successful.

 

Each suffocation attack would require a bit of an extended discussion to ensure that this was in place but it would be worth it for the privilege of invoking the siffocation rules....

 

 

Doc

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think

 

Hmmm. I've been watching this thread carefully and I believe I'm on the side of needing someway to invoke the suffocation/drowning rules on purpose.

 

Doc

 

I would say that the problem is that suffocation/drowning rules are made of Handwavium and should be changed to be a power construct, something that can be emulated by the rules. Would be a lot easier to tackle that aspect of the problem rather than a retooling of the Adjustment Powers or something similarly extensive and drastic.

[badger3k]

Re: What do you think

 

I would say that the problem is that suffocation/drowning rules are made of Handwavium and should be changed to be a power construct' date=' something that [b']can[/b] be emulated by the rules. Would be a lot easier to tackle that aspect of the problem rather than a retooling of the Adjustment Powers or something similarly extensive and drastic.

 

I was going to say that.

 

The rules for drowning seem to be something intended to allow players to simulate being trapped underwater (or diving deep, or some other dramatic effect). I don't see this as the same situation where someone is trying to kill you by cutting off your air. One is a lot more forceful than the other. Personally, I see the problem is on the suffocation rules - they should be rewritten (I'd go for stun damage right away, no END cost, no Rec until they get air). The current rules reward those with huge END reserves (in a Fantasy setting, the scrawny mage could hold his breath longer than the brawny fighter, for example).

 

(I'm going by what I read here - I haven't looked it up myself)

 

I've never see a problem with the rules as written, and see no need to try to emulate the drowning rules. For most common effects, NND attacks fit the bill, in other cases, maybe a drain or suppress. For the "filling his lungs" - that does seem more like an NND KA; Same thing for forcefully removing the air from around somebody, especially if it happened in one second.

 

I'm not sure why you'd want to build a power that takes minutes to work. I can see why you'd want to build such a power. Anything that prevents you from taking any recoveries is very powerful, even if it does nothing else. To me that says it should be expensive.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What do you think

 

The current rules reward those with huge END reserves (in a Fantasy setting' date=' the scrawny mage could hold his breath longer than the brawny fighter, for example).[/quote']I'm not sure that follows. I see no logical reason to allow a PC to draw END from an END Reserve for things happening to the PCs own body since END Reserves are designed to supply Powers with sufficient END. Of course, if he bought the appropriate Power that draws upon the END Reserve (such as Life Support) then that's a different issue.

[badger3k]

Re: What do you think

 

I'm not sure that follows. I see no logical reason to allow a PC to draw END from an END Reserve for things happening to the PCs own body since END Reserves are designed to supply Powers with sufficient END. Of course' date=' if he bought the appropriate Power that draws upon the END Reserve (such as Life Support) then that's a different issue.[/quote']

 

Sorry- I wasn't thinking of that when I wrote it. I meant that if they had a lot of Endurance (in general - I meant "reserve" as in capacity, not the power), then they could hold their breath longer. If the character drains power from their END, as most supers do, then they could hold their breath longer, despite being (more than likely) physically inferior. Most fighters don't need a lot of END - all they need is enough to cover them for several turns. A mage who casts spells may need a high END (just like any other energy projector). This would give the mage an advantage in resisting suffocating and drowning over and above that of the more physically fit fighter.

 

If the drowning rules used Stun, then you would have a more direct correspondence between physical fitness and the capacity to stay alive underwater (in gas, etc).

 

Hope that clears that up. Didn't realize it could be taken that way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Sorry- I wasn't thinking of that when I wrote it. I meant that if they had a lot of Endurance (in general - I meant "reserve" as in capacity, not the power), then they could hold their breath longer. If the character drains power from their END, as most supers do, then they could hold their breath longer, despite being (more than likely) physically inferior. Most fighters don't need a lot of END - all they need is enough to cover them for several turns. A mage who casts spells may need a high END (just like any other energy projector). This would give the mage an advantage in resisting suffocating and drowning over and above that of the more physically fit fighter.

 

If the drowning rules used Stun, then you would have a more direct correspondence between physical fitness and the capacity to stay alive underwater (in gas, etc).

 

END is also what powers long-distance running and other tests of (what other word is there?) endurance. STUN is more like pain tolerance. The Wizard may be a lousy boxer, but a spell system where his spells require END use implies they are more physically taxing than just waving a pointed stick around, so logically such wizards have greater cardiovascular fitness and could reasonably hold their breaths longer.

 

That's a function of the magic system requiring the wizard to spend large amounts of END to cast spells - we have made use of magic physically taxing, so wizards must be fit to be successful. That low END wizard will sit at home and be exhausted by casting very simple spells. If you want frail, unhealthy wizards to be the norm, spells should typically be reduced or 0 END, and not be so taxing on their stamina.

[Vulcan]

Re: What do you think

 

I'm not sure that follows. I see no logical reason to allow a PC to draw END from an END Reserve for things happening to the PCs own body since END Reserves are designed to supply Powers with sufficient END. Of course' date=' if he bought the appropriate Power that draws upon the END Reserve (such as Life Support) then that's a different issue.[/quote']

 

Even an exotic END reserve build used to feed a character's STR? Clearly, this is not a common issue, but it should be addressed.

 

Besides, UMA reccomends just such a build (END Reserve, REC linked to personal REC) to simulate holding your breath for extended periods of time.

[badger3k]

Re: What do you think

 

END is also what powers long-distance running and other tests of (what other word is there?) endurance. STUN is more like pain tolerance. The Wizard may be a lousy boxer, but a spell system where his spells require END use implies they are more physically taxing than just waving a pointed stick around, so logically such wizards have greater cardiovascular fitness and could reasonably hold their breaths longer.

 

That's a function of the magic system requiring the wizard to spend large amounts of END to cast spells - we have made use of magic physically taxing, so wizards must be fit to be successful. That low END wizard will sit at home and be exhausted by casting very simple spells. If you want frail, unhealthy wizards to be the norm, spells should typically be reduced or 0 END, and not be so taxing on their stamina.

 

As it stands, I really don't think the use of END for drowning doesn't represent anything really well. Your average 8 characteristic person has 16 END and 2 SPD. When drowning, they would be able to hold their breath for 8 turns, or about a minute and a half. A little short, but not too bad. Then they lost 1d6 stun per every 12 seconds after that, so they could be out of stun in as little as 36 seconds, or as much as 192 seconds (approx 3.2 minutes). So far, from 2 minutes to nearly 5 minutes. Then they give up their breath and start drowning, dying in about 48 seconds.

 

I don't like it. Add in that the highest END people I have seen have been energy projectors. These are the guys with usually lower physical characteristics than the bricks and martial artists. You can argue all you want that throwing fire is more taxing than punching someone, but I don't see it. Yet they will be the ones who can survive the longest. I can see (and have built) bricks that were 0 END on their STR and had less END because of it, yet can fight all day (especially if they have a higher REC), but the scrawny guy shooting flames can hold his breath longer? Ok, granted his stun and body will be left, but that just means he takes longer to die. Not exactly the same thing. You can say that the STUN part is the character blacking out from lack of oxygen, but it still doesn't sit well with me.

 

(pre-edit - the projector could run a bit more due to his END, but thanks to a lot lower REC, he had no staying power. The brick could outlast him every time - and that assumes he pays END for running).

 

I can see what you're saying, but the way the rules are written...I don't care for them. I'm not sure what would be better, though. I don't see any need to simulate that odd mechanic in other game situations either. But, as we say, YMMV.

[badger3k]

Re: What do you think

 

Even an exotic END reserve build used to feed a character's STR? Clearly, this is not a common issue, but it should be addressed.

 

Besides, UMA reccomends just such a build (END Reserve, REC linked to personal REC) to simulate holding your breath for extended periods of time.

 

If you have an END reserve for this purpose, and had a REC not linked to personal REC, would that allow you to take a recovery despite the rules? I wonder if this could make a low-grade oxygen extractor or filter mask - it works, but slowly. Anything more would be life support, of course.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

As it stands' date=' I really don't think the use of END for drowning doesn't represent anything really well. Your average 8 characteristic person has 16 END and 2 SPD. When drowning, they would be able to hold their breath for 8 turns, or about a minute and a half. A little short, but not too bad. Then they lost 1d6 stun per every 12 seconds after that, so they could be out of stun in as little as 36 seconds, or as much as 192 seconds (approx 3.2 minutes). So far, from 2 minutes to nearly 5 minutes. Then they give up their breath and start drowning, dying in about 48 seconds.[/quote']

 

You assume they don't panic, just remain calm holding their breath.

 

I don't like it. Add in that the highest END people I have seen have been energy projectors. These are the guys with usually lower physical characteristics than the bricks and martial artists. You can argue all you want that throwing fire is more taxing than punching someone' date=' but I don't see it.[/quote']

 

If they are spending more END, such that they need that higher END, then throwing fire seems to be more taxing than punching someone. I typically see Energy Projectors with less END, but they buy Reduced End on a lot of their powers. Of course, if you have a had AP limit, they'll probably take less reduced END and more END to power their attacks.

 

To summarize: if EP's spend the most END, their powers ARE more physically taxing, and they have greater reserves of END before they need to stop and catch their breath. That being the case, they WILL logically last longer in an anaerobic environment than someone who recovers more quickly - he is denied that recovery due to the lack of oxygen.

 

Yet they will be the ones who can survive the longest. I can see (and have built) bricks that were 0 END on their STR and had less END because of it

 

They have less END because you chose not to buy them END, not because they have 0 END on their STR. Maybe you should buy your energy projectors reduced END and less END too.

 

yet can fight all day (especially if they have a higher REC)' date=' but the scrawny guy shooting flames can hold his breath longer? Ok, granted his stun and body will be left, but that just means he takes longer to die. Not exactly the same thing. You can say that the STUN part is the character blacking out from lack of oxygen, but it still doesn't sit well with me.[/quote']

 

Running out of STUN is blacking out, isn't it?

 

If this doesn't sit well with you, I suggest it is because you are building Bricks who quickly become exhausted and Energy Projectors who do not. If you strip them both of their powers and make them run at top speed, 6" Running, Pushing their running all the way so they spend 12 END per phase, and let's call that 48 END per turn, who will be exhausted first?

 

Does it sit well with you that the Brick is never tired - he has 40 END and 20 REC, for example, so after collapsing from exhaustion, he's up and running again in a few seconds? That seems no more accurate. I think you're focusing on a very micro issue, and I suggest the problem sits more with a lack of verisimilitude in the END purchased for the Brick and the EP, than with any flaw in the drowning rules.

 

(pre-edit - the projector could run a bit more due to his END' date=' but thanks to a lot lower REC, he had no staying power. The brick could outlast him every time - and that assumes he pays END for running).[/quote']

 

There we have it. Recovery requires oxygen. The Brick is a superior aerobic performer, but the EP is a superior anaerobic performer. Perhaps greater verisimilitude would be gained by requiring all characters to have a more consistent ratio of recovery to END.

[badger3k]

Re: What do you think

 

You assume they don't panic' date=' just remain calm holding their breath.[/quote']

 

Nope - I assumed that that is reflected in the variable nature of the die roll. Of course, if you mean they are not doing anything that requires END, then yeah. Doesn't mean they are not panicking, since I've seen people freeze in fear as well as run around crazily.

 

If they are spending more END, such that they need that higher END, then throwing fire seems to be more taxing than punching someone. I typically see Energy Projectors with less END, but they buy Reduced End on a lot of their powers. Of course, if you have a had AP limit, they'll probably take less reduced END and more END to power their attacks.

 

To summarize: if EP's spend the most END, their powers ARE more physically taxing, and they have greater reserves of END before they need to stop and catch their breath. That being the case, they WILL logically last longer in an anaerobic environment than someone who recovers more quickly - he is denied that recovery due to the lack of oxygen.

 

Or they are more fit and can take in more oxygen while they are working, and don't need to stop and catch their breath in big gasps. I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with the mechanic for it.

 

They have less END because you chose not to buy them END, not because they have 0 END on their STR. Maybe you should buy your energy projectors reduced END and less END too.

 

No, they have more efficient physical processes that power their muscles, enabling them to strike at full strength continuously. You do see how that works, right?

 

Running out of STUN is blacking out, isn't it?

 

Isn't that what I said?

If this doesn't sit well with you, I suggest it is because you are building Bricks who quickly become exhausted and Energy Projectors who do not. If you strip them both of their powers and make them run at top speed, 6" Running, Pushing their running all the way so they spend 12 END per phase, and let's call that 48 END per turn, who will be exhausted first?

 

But the Brick doesn't get exhausted. That's the point. With 0 END Str, at most (assuming 6" running and 4 SPD), they could spend 4 END per turn. If they have 40 END and 20 REC, they will not run out of END. Give them 20 and in normal circumstances they won't run out of END. They can keep it up all day and night, if need be. But, according to you, this is the wrong way to go about it?

Does it sit well with you that the Brick is never tired - he has 40 END and 20 REC, for example, so after collapsing from exhaustion, he's up and running again in a few seconds? That seems no more accurate. I think you're focusing on a very micro issue, and I suggest the problem sits more with a lack of verisimilitude in the END purchased for the Brick and the EP, than with any flaw in the drowning rules.

 

But the Brick would not be exhausted. That's the point. Also, do you seriously think that a character taking a recovery collapses in exhaustion? Hell, with a 4 speed, that's a 3-second break. He'd be fine before he was halfway down. Sorry. Doesn't sit well indeed. The fact is that the drowning rules were meant to try to simulate normal humans, and when you get into different situations (as you will with supers and other powered characters), they break apart. It seems like you hate that I disagree with your pet project, but sorry, I do.

 

There we have it. Recovery requires oxygen. The Brick is a superior aerobic performer, but the EP is a superior anaerobic performer. Perhaps greater verisimilitude would be gained by requiring all characters to have a more consistent ratio of recovery to END.

 

Or that the drowning rules could be changed to accommodate a larger variety of situations, or else we have to accept that there will be situations where the rules break down because that's the limitation inherent in the rules. Adding a power to simulate this game effect seems to me a waste of time. Sorry it bothers you so much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Nope - I assumed that that is reflected in the variable nature of the die roll. Of course' date=' if you mean they are not doing anything that requires END, then yeah. Doesn't mean they are not panicking, since I've seen people freeze in fear as well as run around crazily.[/quote']

 

As I understand it, people tend to exert energy when drowning, not freeze up.

 

Or they are more fit and can take in more oxygen while they are working' date=' and don't need to stop and catch their breath in big gasps. I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with the mechanic for it.[/quote']

 

I don't see PS 12 as "stopping to catch their breath in big gasps". Taking in more oxygen seems to me to be a function of recovery, not of endurance. Take away the oxygen and the recovery stops. A sprinter would probably buy a bit of extra END to get that big push for a short period. A marathoner would spend his points on REC to last the long haul.

 

No' date=' they have more efficient physical processes that power their muscles, enabling them to strike at full strength continuously. You do see how that works, right?[/quote']

 

Yup. And those more efficient muscles mean that use of those physical processes isn't giving them a real cardio workout, so they don't develop higher END or REC, so they have no enhanced ability to maintain consciousness when deprived of oxygen.

 

But the Brick doesn't get exhausted. That's the point. With 0 END Str' date=' at most (assuming 6" running and 4 SPD), they could spend 4 END per turn. If they have 40 END and 20 REC, they will not run out of END. Give them 20 and in normal circumstances they won't run out of END. They can keep it up all day and night, if need be. But, according to you, this is the wrong way to go about it?[/quote']

 

I believe I mentioned "running full out", which I defined as "pushing your running". That's not 1 END per phase, it's 12. He's out of END before he completes the first turn. And he took 4d6 STUN. He recovers 20 END and gets all his stun back in PS 12. With 20 END, he takes 14d6 STUN in the next turn to keep running. That's not all coming back in the second PS 12. [He sure is in a hurry!] Eventually, he runs out of Stun and collapses in exhaustion.

 

I note that a normal human moving at 6" running will also never run out of END. With his 8's across the board, he has 16 END and a 4 REC. His 2 SPD will mean he spends 2 END per turn. He could have a 4 SPD and still maintain perpetual motion. I can't run at top speed for a minute, much less an hour. Of course, unless we're playing Track & Field Hero, this particular failing isn't that big a deal.

 

But the Brick would not be exhausted. That's the point. Also' date=' do you seriously think that a character taking a recovery collapses in exhaustion? Hell, with a 4 speed, that's a 3-second break. He'd be fine before he was halfway down.[/quote']

 

They also

don't need to stop and catch their breath in big gasps

 

But that 3 second break is a halt to the Brick's running. He can't spend any END, even the one it would take to move, if he wants to take that recovery. "run/stop/run/stop" is very different from a full out run.

 

Or that the drowning rules could be changed to accommodate a larger variety of situations' date=' or else we have to accept that there will be situations where the rules break down because that's the limitation inherent in the rules. Adding a power to simulate this game effect seems to me a waste of time. Sorry it bothers you so much.[/quote']

 

There are two issues here. The first is "should the drowning rules be changed?". I'm OK with them as they are, but if you have a better approach, I'm open to hearing it. It needs to be cinematic and playable, of course.

 

The second is "should there be a mechanical construct in the game to allow a character to create the effect of denial of oxygen to his target, thus triggering the drowning rules?"

 

My answer there is "absolutely - we see this in the source material, and it should be possible, practical and not overly cumbersome to build the same ability in the game".

 

You are unhappy this might effectively take down a Brick. The first use of this power that comes to mind from the source material is the numerous times Sue Storm has taken out the Hulk by blocking his air with a force bubble, so "this takes down Bricks" seems like a feature, not a flaw, to me.

[badger3k]

Re: What do you think

 

As I understand it' date=' people tend to exert energy when drowning, not freeze up.[/quote']

 

Depends on the situation. Surely you've seen the mythbusters do the special on getting out of a flooded car. All you have to do is sit calmly and wait until it was full, then exit with no problem. So how much energy expended is dependent on the situation. When I remember drowning, I wasn't doing very much at the time, so my energy loss should have been minimal.

 

I don't see PS 12 as "stopping to catch their breath in big gasps". Taking in more oxygen seems to me to be a function of recovery, not of endurance. Take away the oxygen and the recovery stops. A sprinter would probably buy a bit of extra END to get that big push for a short period. A marathoner would spend his points on REC to last the long haul.

 

Yup. And those more efficient muscles mean that use of those physical processes isn't giving them a real cardio workout, so they don't develop higher END or REC, so they have no enhanced ability to maintain consciousness when deprived of oxygen.

 

The problem I see is that two different characters can perform the exact same actions, use the same amount of energy, but one is a workout and one isn't. A Brick whose body uses the energy more efficiently is getting the most out of his oxygen than the other guy. If one uses 100% while another uses 10%, unless Mr 10% has lungs 10x the size of MR 100%, he's not going to last longer.

 

I believe I mentioned "running full out", which I defined as "pushing your running". That's not 1 END per phase, it's 12. He's out of END before he completes the first turn. And he took 4d6 STUN. He recovers 20 END and gets all his stun back in PS 12. With 20 END, he takes 14d6 STUN in the next turn to keep running. That's not all coming back in the second PS 12. [He sure is in a hurry!] Eventually, he runs out of Stun and collapses in exhaustion.

 

Right, and I say that's meaningless. More efficient is more efficient is more efficient. It should carry through the whole system across. If I bought Mr Brick to simulate this with 0 END on his running, it should carry through. If he expends 0 END he is using 100% of his energy intake as muscle power. More efficiency translates as more efficiency. Why is that hard to understand?

I note that a normal human moving at 6" running will also never run out of END. With his 8's across the board, he has 16 END and a 4 REC. His 2 SPD will mean he spends 2 END per turn. He could have a 4 SPD and still maintain perpetual motion. I can't run at top speed for a minute, much less an hour. Of course, unless we're playing Track & Field Hero, this particular failing isn't that big a deal.[/QOUTE]

 

Maybe we need to change the REC rules to more effectively work with normal humans. Unless we're playing Aquaman Hero, drowning rules aren't really needed either, at least not in about 28 years of playing that I've seen. Do we really need a power that will take someone 4 or 5 minutes to affect? most encounters are over long before that.

 

They also

 

 

But that 3 second break is a halt to the Brick's running. He can't spend any END, even the one it would take to move, if he wants to take that recovery. "run/stop/run/stop" is very different from a full out run.

That assumes there's a break. At 0 END, there will be no break. I agree that using the 1 END brick there would be, but I should bave stayed with the 0 END on running to keep it consistent.

 

There are two issues here. The first is "should the drowning rules be changed?". I'm OK with them as they are, but if you have a better approach, I'm open to hearing it. It needs to be cinematic and playable, of course.

Currently, I have no idea, but as I said, I never used the rules, nor do I see the need in any sense, so they can be as bad as they are and it won't affect my game.

The second is "should there be a mechanical construct in the game to allow a character to create the effect of denial of oxygen to his target, thus triggering the drowning rules?"

 

My answer there is "absolutely - we see this in the source material, and it should be possible, practical and not overly cumbersome to build the same ability in the game".

 

So, an END Drain, SFX - fills lungs, using the drowning rules when 0 END is reached is too hard?

You are unhappy this might effectively take down a Brick. The first use of this power that comes to mind from the source material is the numerous times Sue Storm has taken out the Hulk by blocking his air with a force bubble, so "this takes down Bricks" seems like a feature, not a flaw, to me.

I hat to be a downer, but there have been times when the hulk was dumped in water and his lung capacity let him go on for a long time, ditto for evacuation in space. Then you had him get hit with gas that had to be breathed in, and even when prepared, he drops like a stone. Cherry picking comic books is poor argumentation - it can illustrate and effect, but trying to figure out consistent rules is practically impossible when you have different writers, different power levels, and dramatic storytelling. Unless you play your game the same way, it's not a great thing to do. I'm surprised you're not aware of this.

 

Still, I have to say I don't see this going anywhere, as it all seems pretty circular. You have some points I agree with, and many I don't, and again, I don't see the need to make a new power that can be done with an END drain. If you want explosive decompression, try NND (does not breath) for a 1-second evacuation of the lungs (even Does Body if you want to be more accurate).

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

Perhaps we should think of a completely different mechanic for suffocation.

 

For example, you can hold your breath for a number of turns equal to your CON score. If you are unable to take a breath before suffocating then you can hold your breath for CON/2 turns, and if you hyperoxygenate before suffocating then you can hold your breath for CONx2 turns.

 

Once you have used that up, you have to make a CON roll every turn to keep holding your breath. Each additional CON roll after the first is at a cumulative -1 penalty.

 

Once you stop holding your breath, you rapidly take damage. You suffer a effect on your STUN and END each turn, at PS12 of 5 points (so you lose 5 Stun and 10 END per turn). The lost Stun and END recovers at 5 points per hour, or 5 points per minute if you have access to air. This effect cannot be dispelled or otherwise affected by any means other than getting air, but the lost STUN and END can be healed or aided, thus keeping you alive and conscious even though you are drowning.

 

You also take a 2 characteristic point drain against Body every turn once you are unconscious, which recovers at 5 points per hour, or 5 points per minute if you have access to air. Body lost in this way can be healed or aided. This makes it impossible to kill someone with standard regeneration by drowning.

 

All damage is considered NND (does not need to breathe).

 

Extended breathing increases the number of turns that you can hold your breath for. Each point doubles your CON for working out how many turns pass before you need to make CON rolls.

 

Optionally, once you start to have to make CON rolls from suffocation you need to make an EGO roll every turn, but this is not penalised. If you fail an EGO roll you have a panic reaction, which could include thrashing about or freezing up, or anything else for that matter. Generally you can decide the reaction, but the GM can veto it and substitute another if necessary. In addition you are considered to have failed your CON rolls from that point, and start taking damage. You can continue to make EGO rolls each turn and if you can make one at a -5 penalty then you can regain control of yourself. This does not allow you to start making CON rolls again, and you continue to take damage.

 

You can have 'suffocation' as a power or adder.

 

As a power it costs 10 points, is ranged and costs END. It is a constant power. It affects a single target, preventing them from breathing.

 

As an adder to a constant power it also costs 10 points.

 

As usual I am making this up as I go along. It probably needs tweaking if it is needed at all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

That would mean a 10 characteristic normal would be able to hold their breath for 10 turns (2 minutes) or up to 4 minutes if they hyperoxygenate. They would then make CON rolls, and we can assume they make their 11- and 10-, so that is a further 2 turns before they take damage, or 2 minutes 24 seconds.

 

They will be out of END after 2 turns and nconscious after 4, or a total of 3 minutes. They then start to drown. They take 10 turns to get down to 0 Body (2 minutes) at which point they start losing Body twice as fast because of normal deterioration, so they last another 5 turns before they die, a total of 6 minutes to actually die. No idea if that is acurate.

 

If they get air just before dying then they recover STUN END and BODY at 5 character points per minute, but tehy will also have taken up to 5 Body from 'under 0' deterioration, which recovers at REC/month.

 

A superhero with 25 CON, 50 Stun and 15 Body could last 25 turns +5 turns + 10 turns (40 turns, 8 minutes) before falling unconscious and they take 15+8 turns (another 4 minutes and 36 seconds) to actually die.

 

Of course in combat if they are taking other damage they can go down a lot faster.

 

You might want a rule that if the character is expending END then the number of turns they can hold their breath for (their effective CON) is halved or even quartered, but, to be honest, it is not going to affect most superhero combats that much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Depends on the situation. Surely you've seen the mythbusters do the special on getting out of a flooded car. All you have to do is sit calmly and wait until it was full' date=' then exit with no problem. So how much energy expended is dependent on the situation. When I remember drowning, I wasn't doing very much at the time, so my energy loss should have been minimal.[/quote']

 

Sitting in that car quietly as it fills with water is very different from being underwater and running out of air. But if we are fixing the drowning rules, I agree they probably are too slow. But then, we want dramatic reality, not realistic reality, right? Given that, it seems reasonable to err on the side of longer times.

 

If I bought Mr Brick to simulate this with 0 END on his running' date=' it should carry through. If he expends 0 END he is using 100% of his energy intake as muscle power. More efficiency translates as more efficiency. Why is that hard to understand?[/quote']

 

What is it about Mr. Brick that prevents him Pushing his running? That's one aspect of 0 END - he incurs no energy expenditure to run, but he can't make that extra "push" at the end of the race. A character who can "run indefinitely" (or do anything else indefinitely) is, due to the 'cannot push with 0 END' rules, probably better simulated by purchasing enough END to continue that activity indefinitely based on their SPD and REC, and maybe 1/2 END, than by purchasing 0 END. I tend to use 0 END for only a portion of the actual power, or 1/2 END overall, unless the ability is completely effortless or the character has some power source independent of his own personal reserves.

 

Maybe we need to change the REC rules to more effectively work with normal humans. Unless we're playing Aquaman Hero' date=' drowning rules aren't really needed either, at least not in about 28 years of playing that I've seen. Do we really need a power that will take someone 4 or 5 minutes to affect? most encounters are over long before that. [/quote']

 

Supers: Atlantis

Fantasy: Alligators

Modern Action: Scuba Diving

Sci Fi: Airlock breached

Pulp: Underwater caves

 

The first item that comes to mind for each genre that doesn't repeat a previous one. I can't think of many genres or subgenres where being deprived of oxygen would not be an issue.

 

And being deprived of oxygen has that immediate "bye bye recovery" effect. That would change combat for many, if not most, characters well before four or five minutes.

 

And I see two choices here. We either have the power, or we don't.

 

If we have it, and you ignore it, your game has not been harmed in any way. If we don't have it, your game is exactly the same and no one else's game can add this effect without a power construct that makes Regeneration and Damage Shields look simp,e and straightforward by comparison.

 

So' date=' an END Drain, SFX - fills lungs, using the drowning rules when 0 END is reached is too hard?[/quote']

 

A drowning person dies but never passes out? Note that END drain below 0 does not do STUN. And why should that END drain, for good or ill, do BOD when the target hits 0 END when my Exhaustion Ray does not?

 

Buying a 1 END per phase drain is a pretty tough construction, given 1d6 would average 7 END per phase. As well, drains operate on each of my phases, not each of my opponent's phases. Of course, since the target still has his recovery (unlike someone who is drowning), losing even 12 END per turn isn't really a big deal, is it? If that's all they're taking, few Supers would ever be in danger of passing out.

 

I hate to be a downer' date=' but there have been times when the hulk was dumped in water and his lung capacity let him go on for a long time, ditto for evacuation in space. Then you had him get hit with gas that had to be breathed in, and even when prepared, he drops like a stone. Cherry picking comic books is poor argumentation - it can illustrate an effect, but trying to figure out consistent rules is practically impossible when you have different writers, different power levels, and dramatic storytelling. Unless you play your game the same way, it's not a great thing to do. I'm surprised you're not aware of this.[/quote']

 

"How long it takes" is very different from "you can not have this effect".

 

Perhaps we should think of a completely different mechanic for suffocation.

 

I like the concept, although the fractions, and maybe the penalty increments, probably need to be tweaked.

 

Once you stop holding your breath' date=' you rapidly take damage. You suffer a effect on your STUN and END each turn, at PS12 of 5 points (so you lose 5 Stun and 10 END per turn). The lost Stun and END recovers at 5 points per hour, or 5 points per minute if you have access to air. This effect cannot be dispelled or otherwise affected by any means other than getting air, but the lost STUN and END can be healed or aided, thus keeping you alive and conscious even though you are drowning.[/quote']

 

Again, perhaps this should be faster - maybe by making it per phase. Maybe we should use the CON roll to replace END loss, and just have the target take, say, 1d6 STUN every phase once he misses the CON roll? Simplifying further, I think we should stick with "no REC while deprived of air" rather than making this a Drain-type construct. Yeah, you catch your breath pretty fast - but you also recover from exhaustion and a beating pretty quickly in Hero.

 

You also take a 2 characteristic point drain against Body every turn once you are unconscious' date=' which recovers at 5 points per hour, or 5 points per minute if you have access to air. Body lost in this way can be healed or aided. This makes it impossible to kill someone with standard regeneration by drowning.[/quote']

 

Again, I'd ditch the ability to recover this while lacking air (which should have no big impact anyway). I'm OK with it coming back from Regen (or not - either would work for me), but 5 CP per hour while underwater serves no real purpose.

 

All damage is considered NND (does not need to breathe).

 

Or "can breathe in this environment".

 

Extended breathing increases the number of turns that you can hold your breath for. Each point doubles your CON for working out how many turns pass before you need to make CON rolls.

 

Seems reasonable.

 

Optionally' date=' once you start to have to make CON rolls from suffocation you need to make an EGO roll every turn, but this is not penalised. If you fail an EGO roll you have a panic reaction, which could include thrashing about or freezing up, or anything else for that matter. Generally you can decide the reaction, but the GM can veto it and substitute another if necessary. In addition you are considered to have failed your CON rolls from that point, and start taking damage. You can continue to make EGO rolls each turn and if you can make one at a -5 penalty then you can regain control of yourself. This does not allow you to start making CON rolls again, and you continue to take damage.[/quote']

 

I like this as an optional rule. In most games, cinematic reality suggests Heroes don't typically panic, so not a main rule.

 

You can have 'suffocation' as a power or adder.

 

As a power it costs 10 points, is ranged and costs END. It is a constant power. It affects a single target, preventing them from breathing.

 

As an adder to a constant power it also costs 10 points.

 

The cost needs testing, but 10 points 'feels right'. I'm inclined to make the cost a 20 point adder to Change Environment (which is already multi-targeting, so it drops down if it affects only one target), 10 points for a force wall and 10 points for an Entangle (either of which would last until the wall or entangle is broken). I see no reason it couldn't also be an adder to any other constant power (including an Instant power made Constant with advantages).

 

That would mean a 10 characteristic normal would be able to hold their breath for 10 turns (2 minutes) or up to 4 minutes if they hyperoxygenate. They would then make CON rolls' date=' and we can assume they make their 11- and 10-, so that is a further 2 turns before they take damage, or 2 minutes 24 seconds.[/quote']

 

That's a lot. What if the fraction were, say, 1/2 CON (4 turns for a typical normal, so 48 seconds; a minute with a 10 CON), halved if taken unawares (24/30 seconds) and doubled with hyperoxygenation (96 seconds/2 minutes). That seems close, and it's extended by the rolls. It's likely still a bit high, but cinematic reality is the goal.

 

They will be out of END after 2 turns and nconscious after 4' date=' or a total of 3 minutes.[/quote']

 

At 1d6 per phase, they last about 3 turns after the roll fails. That's probably not unreasonable, but it means high SPD drowns you faster. Maybe it should be 2d6 STUN every PS 12 . Normal then lasts about 3 turns (36 seconds), and are unconscious after as little as 3 1/2 minutes, extended by each successful CON roll.

 

They then start to drown. They take 10 turns to get down to 0 Body (2 minutes) at which point they start losing Body twice as fast because of normal deterioration' date=' so they last another 5 turns before they die, a total of 6 minutes to actually die. No idea if that is accurate.[/quote']

 

It seems close enough for cinematic reality, although high BOD characters will last a long time. We could bump it to 3 CP (1 BOD on odd turns, 2 on even) or 4 CP (2 BOD per turn) if we want a faster result (and some Regen allowing you to drown), but I don't think that's critical. And it's an easy house rule if someone wants to use it.

 

If they get air just before dying then they recover STUN END and BODY at 5 character points per minute' date=' but tehy will also have taken up to 5 Body from 'under 0' deterioration, which recovers at REC/month.[/quote']

 

As noted above, I'd have STUN and END recover at normal rates (maybe good if you get out quick; maybe not if you're at -35 STUN). I like the BOD issue that, once you "go down for the third time", it won't all come back fast.

 

A superhero with 25 CON' date=' 50 Stun and 15 Body could last 25 turns +5 turns + 10 turns (40 turns, 8 minutes) before falling unconscious and they take 15+8 turns (another 4 minutes and 36 seconds) to actually die.[/quote']

 

So that becomes 13 turns, +5 turns, +about 7 turns = 25 turns, or 5 minutes before being unconscious, plus the extra time to actually drown. That seems reasonable for game purposes.

 

Moving some of this to 6e as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

I've had a re-think.

 

I think the basic idea is sound - we need to re-define suffocation BUT we need to do it in Hero terms i.e. we need to BUILD suffocation. Cool.

 

Here's my effort.

 

Basic suffocation 22 active, 10 real

Drain BODY 1 point, Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Body only drained if End = 0 or less; +0), Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Recovery = 5/minute if air available; +0), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), No Normal Defense (LS: no need to breathe, delayed by LS Extended breathing; +1), Continuous (+1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1), all [stun, End, Int, Pre, Body] powers simultaneously (+2) (22 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4)

 

PLUS

 

Panic suffocation 19 active, 8 real

Drain BODY 1 point, Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Body only drained if End = 0 or less; +0), Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Recovery = 5/minute if air available; +0), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), [stun, END, Int, Pre] simultaneously (+1), No Normal Defense (No need to breathe, delayed by extended breathing; +1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1), Continuous (+1) (19 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only applies if you target fails an EGO roll at -1/turn; -1/4)

 

SO, we have the loss of a single characteristic point of Stun, End, Int and Pre per turn from when you start suffocating. That = 1 Stun, Int and Pre and 2 End per turn. That recovers so slowly that you'll be dead before you get any back, but once you get air it comes back much quicker. once you are out of END, which will be about twice as fast as you are out of Stun. you ALSO start taking Body damage at 1 point per turn, or one Body every 2 turns. Assuming a normal has 20 stun and End and 10 Body, he'll be unconscious in 20 turns (4 minutes) and dead* in 29 turns (5 minutes and 48 seconds).

 

A superhero has 50 Stun and End and 15 Body, he'll be unconscious in 50 turns (10 minutes) and dead in 64 turns (12 minutes, 48 seconds).

 

Conceivably someone with enough End could still be conscious when they die of suffocation. Someone tell Fox.

 

The 'panic suffocation' allows you to pass out (and die) faster if you panic (fail an Ego roll), which I think is nice. Assuming I'm not the one suffocating.

 

The enormous advantage of this method (to my way of thinking ) is that it is built with Hero rules, so building the power is easy: suffocation is an 18 point power, or 14 points if linked to another power (including 'linked' in the other limitations).

 

Explanatory notes:

 

I've included Int and Pre drain because, as you suffocate it becomes harder to think (and notice stuff) and you become more prone to panic and other emotions. OK, that is sfx driven but this is a build, so I figure that is OK. It is still not a horribly effective combat power but then it does not cost that much (especially if we allow it as a sort of 'talent' build).

 

The panic suffocation could be replaced with (for instance) 'increased damage if you are taking actions' or somesuch. This is definitely a work in progress, but I'm sure it is the right general direction to go.

 

Anyway, I think we ought to re-do suffocation as a build. I hope you think so too. With a system that can build anything it seems insane** not to use it to build suffocation.

 

 

 

*taking into account deterioration once you hit -1 Body

 

** in retrospect