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Can this be done x 2


sindyr

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

agreed' date=' which means the player and the gm need to put a lot more up front chargen focus so that "the things he can do and i will want to do" are addressed beforehand.[/quote']

 

My question is what if either 1) They thought they *had* addressed all that beforehand, and only later come up with "I ought to be able to do X, becasue there's no reason why in story logic I shouldn't" - like the matchstick in the gas tank and 2) What if prethinking all the reasonable ways that someone can do X could be bought as powers, one runs out of CP? Then its back to VPP VPP VPP, I guess.

 

you seem to keep thinking along a line of BUY a POWER then get all its potential sfx imaginings for free, and that i think where the problems arise.

 

I think its really the reverse - a player ultimately is not excited to have a mechanic that says you can have X in game effects, he is excited to be able to have a teleport POWER in *game* that he can use. The STORY part is the part that is the fun and the meat. Plus I don't like punishing players for using their powers in new and creative (and reasonable) ways.

 

Maybe the power skill power is the key, will check it out.

 

However, my gut instinct, as a RP'er for 30 years that has played dozens of systems and collected over a hundred, that although it doesn't see that way at first, Hero System is really about narrative control the same way that an Indie Forge style game is (or maybe the opposite way) and your character points buy specific ways for you to affect the story, the DON'T buy in game truths that you can leverage and explore, the way traditional games do.

 

Still, maybe I can fudge it.

 

Heresy alert: There's something to be said about a game that gives you the ability to do somethin - like teleport objects - and you get all results from that in game power that in any way you can think of employing it.

 

Like TPing a match into a gas tank.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I'm being deadly serious - with the guys who can create stuff, for example - one would imagine that creating napalm, or even basic gas, is not hard *from a story point of view*, if the mechanics forbid it do you just decide not to care that suddenly the truth of the gameworld doesn't add up, because the mechanics and point totals are more important?

 

It's a balance issue. If "I can create anything" guy is around, then why should anyone else be built differently? It becomes a story about the one guy and the rest of the PCs can be his ego gratification.

 

There's a thread around that talks about building people you know on points. Depending on the campaign, we could be talking wildly different totals.

 

Computer Hacking campaign could have chars with 50 points in various comp sci skill.

 

Most Super campaigns, an expert hacker is someone with Computers: 14-

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

So basically, if you have a summon power, you can summon anything that doesn't conflict with another power... You can summon barbed wire, but it can't Entangle people. You can summon a steel wall, but it can't protect you with PD/ED/Def the way a Force Field would. You can summon Napalm, but it's not going to be able to be lit.

 

There are some problems I see coming straight for me with this - which I guess are just how the Hero System works.

 

etc etc

 

'Summon' is technically a power used to bring to your person a being from a nother location, whether a specific being or not (ex. a barbarian warrior, a wolf, George Clooney, etc).

 

The Hero System has rules to keep game balance, hence the 'if you've bought it, you can use it' or 'if the GM has introduced it, you can use it for that adventure (maybe)'. You bring specifics up which others have already answered, so I won't go into those. :rolleyes:

 

The hero system works on the basis of concepts: think of a character concept, then you can build it with an alloted amount of points (200 Base + Disadvantages). You cannot buy more powers than your total alloted points. Why? For game balance. Generally, you get more powerful/skilled/etc. by going on adventures and earning Experience Points which can be used like additional points granted to you. Most people use these added skills/powers bought with these points as the character having learned/been taught/etc. something new or thought of a new way to use their power. Again, game balance.

 

You keep mentioning things such as 'You can summon barbed wire, you can summon a steel wall, etc' but those are the special effects. The hero system says 'What are you going to do with that special effect?' If you're going to use the steel wall to block people, then it could be bought as a Force Wall (which could also be used to protect people btw).

 

If you really did want to summon steel (I'd say it's so much better terminology-wise to say you create steel to avoid confusion with the Summon power), the power Transform can be used to create steel.

 

The Hero System is a wonderful system but no system is perfect and no system can do everything. However, from over 25 years of roleplaying systems, I'd say the hero system is the closest there is to it. If the hero system simply doesn't meet your standards, there are other systems.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Heresy alert: There's something to be said about a game that gives you the ability to do somethin - like teleport objects - and you get all results from that in game power that in any way you can think of employing it.

 

Like TPing a match into a gas tank.

 

Like D&D issues such as:

 

- magic missiles always hit, so I shoot him in the eyes.

 

- Create Water in his lungs.

 

- Chill cantrip reduces the temperature of 1 cubic foot of matter to 30 degrees farenheit. I reduce the temperature of that fighter's chest and abdomen - that should kill him instantly.

 

Hey, they are the "logical" results of my spells...

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

You are asking “Why can’t a character create Napalm?” when the question should be “If the character wants to create Napalm how do I build that power?”

 

Does that make sense?

 

If you are in the middle of a session, and the player has no CP left to spend, but his character ostensibly was supposed to be able to something anything commonly present somewhere on the earth, it doesn't matter how to build it, he has no points left. At which point, you would blame the player or GM.

 

But you can't blame the player or GM for not thinking of every possible way that summoning stuff could be used. It's just not possible to guarantee that the player won't have an Aha moment later, when his character points are gone.

 

And since he has no character points, the GM has to tell him even though it makes no sense for his character to NOT be able to do this one small thing when he has done stuff just like it all along, he can't because he has no points. - Or not enough.

 

That's the issue.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

After reading the replies so far, it seems that no one has any idea what I am talking about. Either I am not explaining well (the most likely possibility), or you guys have bought into the Hero System that you simply do not see what I am seeing, or some other issue is coming up.

 

However, I do not know what else to do to try to explain the issue I am having. I literally do not know where to go from here, to try to get some help on this problem I am suddenly seeing with the base truth of Hero System.

 

I don't know what to do, but I do know that until this is resolved, I may have to put all further Hero System work or exploration on hold.

 

The *only* thing I can think of is that this medium (written posts) has ALWAYS been abjectly poor for complex conversation where they may be unspoken assumptions on both sides and other pitfalls. It has a HUGE turnaround time for a single exchange.

 

I think I could be much more effective by phone, should some Hero System expert make themselves available to me for a voice chat session for 10 or 15 minutes or so - I have unlimited long distance to North America and Western Europe. Of course, absolutely no one has an obligation on that, although nothing else seems to be working.

 

But I am well and truly stuck, doubly so because I don't seem to be able to communicate my base issues in written form, though I have been trying for some time today.

 

Drat.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

If you are in the middle of a session, and the player has no CP left to spend, but his character ostensibly was supposed to be able to something anything commonly present somewhere on the earth, it doesn't matter how to build it, he has no points left. At which point, you would blame the player or GM.

 

But you can't blame the player or GM for not thinking of every possible way that summoning stuff could be used. It's just not possible to guarantee that the player won't have an Aha moment later, when his character points are gone.

 

And since he has no character points, the GM has to tell him even though it makes no sense for his character to NOT be able to do this one small thing when he has done stuff just like it all along, he can't because he has no points. - Or not enough.

 

That's the issue.

Generally you don't spend CPs mid-game.

 

Now, several people have pointed out that doing things creatively can be done, but if you want to keep doing a certain trick, you should spend some points for future uses.

 

It's very hard to debate someone who hasn't read the rule book and has just been going off on skimming it. You're making a lot of assumptions that are explained in the rules themselves.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Is this *any* different from saying "the system is working as intended, if your power doesn't seem to work the way the world logical consistency would demand, then either you built it wrong, and so should suffer, or it's too expensive and it's more imprtant that you don't get power you didn't pay for even if that makes the game world stop making sense in some ways?"

 

I'm being deadly serious - with the guys who can create stuff, for example - one would imagine that creating napalm, or even basic gas, is not hard *from a story point of view*, if the mechanics forbid it do you just decide not to care that suddenly the truth of the gameworld doesn't add up, because the mechanics and point totals are more important?

 

There is a dichotomy between the apparent ease of use of some powers and the 'real world' ease of use.

 

Creating napalm is not particularly difficult, nor is it difficult to create any number of toxic gasses in reality. However, walking round with a bin full of napalm, or a cannister of chlorine gas - well, not so easy to get away with.

 

You are paying points for the whole thing. The production facilities, the safe transport and the effective deployment.

 

Hero can do pretty much anything, but it can't necessarily do pretty much anything just the way you want it done. There are strictures in the system - there has to be - and those strictures mean that anything that is effective as a weapon is probably going to cost quite a few points.

 

If you don't stop thinking 'This isn't working as expected/desired' and start thinking 'How do I make this work as expected/desired', you are going to explode.

 

It is not a matter of the truth of the gameworld not adding up so much as YOU making it add up. That requires a little thought as to the consequences of what you build, but it comes easy with time.

 

I'll give you an example. You buy a RKA machine gun and you buy 4 clips of 32 bullets. That means that, with your 4 shot autofire you have a maximum of 8 shots per clip, 32 shots in all.

 

Now you run out of ammo. No worries, you think, I'll go buy some more. I have my credit card, I know the caliber I need.

 

However, that means you are getting something for nothing, and whilst you may be able to do that occasionally, in a pinch, maybe with a power skill roll, it is not something you can do all the time.

 

The GM could just say, "You can't do it - you din't spend the points", but that bursts the bubble so that isn't the approach I'd take. If I was GMing I'd maybe make it hard to find an ammo shop, or I'd throw something at you that you had to deal with there and then to stop you being able to wander off, or I'd let you find some ammo but have it jam in the gun and so not be usable. I might even let you do it once, but not twice.

 

If you kept on trying to get something for nothing I'd have a word and suggest you spend some XP and buy your clips as recoverable - allowing you to scavenge the battlefield, or local shops, for ammo after a battle.

 

The integrity of the game world is preserved, and the rules are complied with. Hero does require something of a different approach to many games. You need to be aware of not just what you can do, but why you can do it. If it is 'logical' that you can get your hands on more napalm, or run up a batch of toxic gas, then build the ability to do so. It isn't the game's fault if you don't think it through.

 

Equally even experienced players sometimes don't realise at the time of building that something should work a little differently. If you are playing in a game I'm running I'll let you spend XP mid combat if necessary to realise your concept that little better (although I'd be less willing to do so just to make you more powerful), or even give you an XP loan so that you can make the character work as intended - and you pay that back as you earn XP. In addition I'd have no problem with you re-writing your powers completely between sessions to make them work more in turn with your concept - so long as the points remain the same. I wouldn't let you do it in game because it slows down things and spoils the fun for others.

 

It is easy to come up with sfx that 'logically' would make you the most powerful being on the planet, and if that is your starting point, prepare to be disappointed. The responsibility lies with you to make your concept fit in the available points. Sometimes - often - you won't start as powerful or fully realised as you want - that is part of the incentive to play.

 

So, the answer to 'can this be done' is almost certainly yes, but it up to you to decide if it actually needs doing. Let me ask you about 'Heidi' - did she work as a character, and if so, what was it that prevented her simply dominating the game and outclassing all the other PCs?

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

If you are in the middle of a session, and the player has no CP left to spend, but his character ostensibly was supposed to be able to something anything commonly present somewhere on the earth, it doesn't matter how to build it, he has no points left. At which point, you would blame the player or GM.

 

But you can't blame the player or GM for not thinking of every possible way that summoning stuff could be used. It's just not possible to guarantee that the player won't have an Aha moment later, when his character points are gone.

 

And since he has no character points, the GM has to tell him even though it makes no sense for his character to NOT be able to do this one small thing when he has done stuff just like it all along, he can't because he has no points. - Or not enough.

 

That's the issue.

 

One of the things I very often do with new characters is leave 50 points unspent so that, as you work with the character in game, and you see what you've left out, you can build it. Its also a pretty good way to simulate the trope that new characters develop fastest.

 

As I and several others have said though, if necessary there are ways you can add to or amend a character even mid-game: the power skill, spending stored XP (and it is often a good idea to have several points unspent for just this kind of eventuality) or a loan against future XP earned.

 

Hero is not a straight jacket, the rules are there to make sure that everyone is playing at roughly the same level of character ability. If you have a character who 'should' be able to do so much more maybe you are not playing at the right point level.

 

However, some concepts simply take more points to realise than others, without necesarily making you substantially more powerful. In those cases, talk to the GM - there is no absolute rule that every character has to have the same number of points. What is important though is that every character is able to contribute to the story and isn't there just to applaud the latest astonishing feat by the Wonderful Wizard.

 

One more thing - when coming up with a concept don't just think about WHAT you can do, think about HOW you can do it - not with the rules - in game. For example if you can maniplulate matter, rearrange it down tot eh level of electrons and protons so that you 'control matter', that suggests a lot of possibilities. You should be able to turn opponents into pillars of salt, for example, and there should be nothing they can do about it.

 

Think though - HOW is the character doing it? Maybe it is magic. OK, a woolly concept but we are already in the realm of the impossible. The fact is that a lot of your powers will be adjustment powers - transform, drain, aid. They do not necessarily have instant effect nor do they lack defences. Why should you be limited? Well, perhaps every living thing has an intrinsic, low level, magical aura. This interferes with your ability to manipluate animate matter, so normal power defence is effective at stopping your power. The fact is you can change almost any opponent into a pillar of salt, but it is not an instantaneous process - it might take 5 or 10 seconds to accomplish. In Hero combat that is a long time but in 'reality' it happens with frightening rapidity.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

After reading the replies so far, it seems that no one has any idea what I am talking about. Either I am not explaining well (the most likely possibility), or you guys have bought into the Hero System that you simply do not see what I am seeing, or some other issue is coming up.

 

However, I do not know what else to do to try to explain the issue I am having. I literally do not know where to go from here, to try to get some help on this problem I am suddenly seeing with the base truth of Hero System.

 

I don't know what to do, but I do know that until this is resolved, I may have to put all further Hero System work or exploration on hold.

 

The *only* thing I can think of is that this medium (written posts) has ALWAYS been abjectly poor for complex conversation where they may be unspoken assumptions on both sides and other pitfalls. It has a HUGE turnaround time for a single exchange.

 

I think I could be much more effective by phone, should some Hero System expert make themselves available to me for a voice chat session for 10 or 15 minutes or so - I have unlimited long distance to North America and Western Europe. Of course, absolutely no one has an obligation on that, although nothing else seems to be working.

 

But I am well and truly stuck, doubly so because I don't seem to be able to communicate my base issues in written form, though I have been trying for some time today.

 

Drat.

 

I think the biggest issue you are having is getting around the sfx vs. effect concept that HERO is built on.

 

Take the concept of teleportation for starters. The sfx of teleportation can explain an almost limitless number of abilities built with various powers within HERO.

 

for example:

 

The Deliveryman can teleport himself and nearly anything he can see for a variety of in-game effects.

 

the following list is by no means complete.

 

75 Pickup & Delivery Powers: Multipower, 75-point reserve

7u 1) Same Day Pickup & Delivery: Teleportation 15", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, x4 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 2) Next Day Ground: Teleportation 10", No Relative Velocity, x32 Noncombat, x4 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 3) Next Day Air: Teleportation 5", No Relative Velocity, x4 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1,000 km; +1), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 4) Special Pickup: Teleportation 10", Ranged (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), Usable As Attack (+1) (75 Active Points) - END=7

6u 5) Special Delivery: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Whatever the material that is teleported into target; +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1) (75 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4) - END=7

 

The first 3 slots are personal movement only and the differences between them is primarily the distance traveled.

The last 2 slots are combat oriented. The one with UAA can be used to 'grab' nearly anything or anyone. The RKA represents literally teleporting something into something or someone else. Both the UAA and the NND still need to have a defense described.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

After reading the replies so far, it seems that no one has any idea what I am talking about. Either I am not explaining well (the most likely possibility), or you guys have bought into the Hero System that you simply do not see what I am seeing, or some other issue is coming up.

 

However, I do not know what else to do to try to explain the issue I am having. I literally do not know where to go from here, to try to get some help on this problem I am suddenly seeing with the base truth of Hero System.

 

I don't know what to do, but I do know that until this is resolved, I may have to put all further Hero System work or exploration on hold.

 

The *only* thing I can think of is that this medium (written posts) has ALWAYS been abjectly poor for complex conversation where they may be unspoken assumptions on both sides and other pitfalls. It has a HUGE turnaround time for a single exchange.

 

I think I could be much more effective by phone, should some Hero System expert make themselves available to me for a voice chat session for 10 or 15 minutes or so - I have unlimited long distance to North America and Western Europe. Of course, absolutely no one has an obligation on that, although nothing else seems to be working.

 

But I am well and truly stuck, doubly so because I don't seem to be able to communicate my base issues in written form, though I have been trying for some time today.

 

Drat.

 

No, I think I understand what you're asking.

And part of the problem reading the responses is you seem to be completely unfamiliar with how Hero approaches gaming.

 

You're thinking backwards from a Hero System perspective.

 

We're focusing too much on the "summon napalm" part - because in Hero there are generally at least 2 ways to do anything in the game. Sometimes more. Lots more.

 

This is a walk through of how a player will build a Character. He will call his character Captain Napalm. This character has the ability to spontaneously create napalm.

 

Now, the Player thinks about some possible uses for Napalm - this is his Special Effect (SFX from here on).

 

-I can blanket an area in Napalm and toss a match. OK, what is fire? That is a Killing Attack versus Energy typically. I have my basic effect: Ranged Killing Attack (RKA). Now, it's got to cover an area. I should apply Area Of Effect (AoE) Advantage to my power. I want it to last a few seconds before all the Napalm burns off though, I can summnon enough Napalm to make it last up to a Full Turn. That's the Continuous Advantage.

 

My Power looks something like this:

Covered in Napalm, and On Fire!: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Continuous (+1) (90 Active Points)

 

Alright, I can also control my napalm as a stream I can shoot at someone and light it up. It's not a lot of Napalm, it burns off really quickly, but it hurts. Again, RKA is a good start. Now, it really doesn't do much else.

 

Jet Of Napalm, On Fire!: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6

 

Of course, sometimes I don't want to hurt them all that badly, luckily I can summon a modified Napalm (hey, I'm good), and it burns off really fast doing a good amount of fire and heat damage, but isn't nearly so bad as my first jet.

 

Low Powered Jet of Napalm; On Fire!: Energy Blast 10d6

 

Now, you see what I've done here? Instead of saying "I summon Napalm" I walk through a decide what it is exactly I can do with my Napalm that I've summoned, and purchase those Powers base on that Special Effect.

 

AH! You say, what if I think of something in the middle of Combat I forgot to buy? I forgot to buy my Weaker Napalm as an Area Of Effect!

 

A Good GM (meaning, anyone worth gaming with) will note that you've also purchased "Napalm!" as a Power Skill. You use this Skill to come up with creative uses of an existing SFX. In this case the GM sees you already have a AoE attack, and decides it'd be very easy for you to adjust your Napalm to the weaker version, and adds a +2 to your Skill Roll on top of the negative for the Active Points (see: Power Skill for using it).

 

Later on, you decide this new AoE version is also really useful, so you spend some Experience Points to add it permanently to your Character Sheet.

 

I'll address the issue of picking up the gun in combat in a second post, it's a completely different topic.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

There is a dichotomy between the apparent ease of use of some powers and the 'real world' ease of use.

 

Creating napalm is not particularly difficult, nor is it difficult to create any number of toxic gasses in reality. However, walking round with a bin full of napalm, or a cannister of chlorine gas - well, not so easy to get away with.

 

You are paying points for the whole thing. The production facilities, the safe transport and the effective deployment.

 

Hero can do pretty much anything, but it can't necessarily do pretty much anything just the way you want it done. There are strictures in the system - there has to be - and those strictures mean that anything that is effective as a weapon is probably going to cost quite a few points.

 

If you don't stop thinking 'This isn't working as expected/desired' and start thinking 'How do I make this work as expected/desired', you are going to explode.

 

It is not a matter of the truth of the gameworld not adding up so much as YOU making it add up. That requires a little thought as to the consequences of what you build, but it comes easy with time.

 

I'll give you an example. You buy a RKA machine gun and you buy 4 clips of 32 bullets. That means that, with your 4 shot autofire you have a maximum of 8 shots per clip, 32 shots in all.

 

Now you run out of ammo. No worries, you think, I'll go buy some more. I have my credit card, I know the caliber I need.

 

However, that means you are getting something for nothing, and whilst you may be able to do that occasionally, in a pinch, maybe with a power skill roll, it is not something you can do all the time.

 

The GM could just say, "You can't do it - you din't spend the points", but that bursts the bubble so that isn't the approach I'd take. If I was GMing I'd maybe make it hard to find an ammo shop, or I'd throw something at you that you had to deal with there and then to stop you being able to wander off, or I'd let you find some ammo but have it jam in the gun and so not be usable. I might even let you do it once, but not twice.

 

If you kept on trying to get something for nothing I'd have a word and suggest you spend some XP and buy your clips as recoverable - allowing you to scavenge the battlefield, or local shops, for ammo after a battle.

 

The integrity of the game world is preserved, and the rules are complied with. Hero does require something of a different approach to many games. You need to be aware of not just what you can do, but why you can do it. If it is 'logical' that you can get your hands on more napalm, or run up a batch of toxic gas, then build the ability to do so. It isn't the game's fault if you don't think it through.

 

Equally even experienced players sometimes don't realise at the time of building that something should work a little differently. If you are playing in a game I'm running I'll let you spend XP mid combat if necessary to realise your concept that little better (although I'd be less willing to do so just to make you more powerful), or even give you an XP loan so that you can make the character work as intended - and you pay that back as you earn XP. In addition I'd have no problem with you re-writing your powers completely between sessions to make them work more in turn with your concept - so long as the points remain the same. I wouldn't let you do it in game because it slows down things and spoils the fun for others.

 

It is easy to come up with sfx that 'logically' would make you the most powerful being on the planet, and if that is your starting point, prepare to be disappointed. The responsibility lies with you to make your concept fit in the available points. Sometimes - often - you won't start as powerful or fully realised as you want - that is part of the incentive to play.

 

So, the answer to 'can this be done' is almost certainly yes, but it up to you to decide if it actually needs doing. Let me ask you about 'Heidi' - did she work as a character, and if so, what was it that prevented her simply dominating the game and outclassing all the other PCs?

 

Sean makes some very good points here.

 

But for clarity sake let me point out that he is referring to the rules as they apply to superhero characters (who must pay for everything) not heroic characters (who get most equipment for free).

 

A Fantasy Hero character (heroic) does not have to pay character points for a normal sword (which might be built as a HKA). Points ARE paid for the skills to be able to wield the sword. The character may not (or may depending on the GM's preference) have to pay experience points (which work just like character points) on a magic sword he found during an adventure.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

My question is what if either 1) They thought they *had* addressed all that beforehand, and only later come up with "I ought to be able to do X, becasue there's no reason why in story logic I shouldn't" - like the matchstick in the gas tank and 2) What if prethinking all the reasonable ways that someone can do X could be bought as powers, one runs out of CP? Then its back to VPP VPP VPP, I guess.

 

I think its really the reverse - a player ultimately is not excited to have a mechanic that says you can have X in game effects, he is excited to be able to have a teleport POWER in *game* that he can use. The STORY part is the part that is the fun and the meat. Plus I don't like punishing players for using their powers in new and creative (and reasonable) ways.

 

Maybe the power skill power is the key, will check it out.

 

However, my gut instinct, as a RP'er for 30 years that has played dozens of systems and collected over a hundred, that although it doesn't see that way at first, Hero System is really about narrative control the same way that an Indie Forge style game is (or maybe the opposite way) and your character points buy specific ways for you to affect the story, the DON'T buy in game truths that you can leverage and explore, the way traditional games do.

 

Still, maybe I can fudge it.

 

Heresy alert: There's something to be said about a game that gives you the ability to do somethin - like teleport objects - and you get all results from that in game power that in any way you can think of employing it.

 

Like TPing a match into a gas tank.

 

You can ignite petrol by TPing a match into the tank. If there is a tank of petrol there, feel free to blow it up. Really NOT a problem. Of course the other side can use it too...

 

It is no different from any feature of the game world, like cover. It is there, you can use it.

 

What Hero DOESN'T allow you to do is bring along tanks of gas and blow them up unless you have paid for that. Well, not easily anyway. That is really no different from other games. If you wanted to set up an ambush with gas tanks about the place I'd probably let you. However the no points were spent so the gas tanks are not 'yours'. Your opponents could find a way to use them against you. In addition, you really can't carry gas tanks around - too bulky, too risky. For set pieces, where you can pick your battleground, I'd let you use the environment even thosugh you have chosen it and set it up. Expect similar tactics from opponents when you are ont heir home turf.

 

Let's take a different example. Now, say your main opponents in this story arc are mechanicals - robots of some sort. You can teleport objects as a power. You take to carrying a little bag of aluminium filings that you can teleport into your robot opponents, shorting them out.

 

First use is probably a power skill roll - not something you've done before - if the GM allows it to work at all - bear in mind there might be some reason it won't work that your character does not know about. Perhaps their intrinsic EM field interferes with his teleport ability, but let us assume the GM allows it.

 

Now it is something you want to do all the time, because it is an effective tactic. Sure. Spend some XP - not a lot necessarily - make your TP power into a multipower and take the TP aluminium chaff ability an attack power. Now you can use your TP ability to TP yourself or TP something else - but, in effect, what you have, reasoning from effects, is an attack, probably something like an indirect invisible effect NND Does Body, stopped by energy fields. The ability to turn single powers into multipowers makes your points go further.

 

Now as time goes by you develop all kinds of other TP themed tricks, lots more slots for your MP, from teleporting incoming attacks away from you to teleporting just every other atom so that you can be in two places at once. Eventually it is cheaper to buy the powers as a VPP than a MP, and your GM will probably let you. That way, if you think of a new use for your TP ability it will nto cost you more points.

 

The character that you play is not an end product, but a work in progress.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

What if instead of Captain Napalm, you have The Teleporter, a character that can do the following in game things:

 

1) Teleport anything he can see to anyplace he can see. (To keep this simpler, lets not even consider using TP against another character)

2) Teleport anything he knows where it is (say, stuff he has left in a room in his house for use as he adventures) to some where he can see. Range, unlimited, but he has a better chance to teleport the item if it's in a more familiar place or if it's closer. This means that stuff in his home he can TP no problem, as well as that glass he saw on the table in the other room (If it's still there.)

3) Teleport anything he can normally teleport above to a place he can't see, but can imagine, that is in range (1000 feet, say), perhaps having to roll for precision, such as placing the lit match in the gas tank.

 

Now, without making a VPP, how can I create the above character on 300 CP or so, in such a way that any use of the power that comes up in game will not fail due to not havnig purchased the right mechanics? For example, if I don't buy an Entangle, but later on I think to put a quantity of barbed wire in a room in my house, to be able to TP near/infront of/around baddies.

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later, which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?

 

Edit: And without having to spend more CP, which I may not have?

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later, which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?

 

Use a multipower for your effects with the special effect "Teleport"

 

Either that or have a very forgiving GM.

 

edit: Oh, missed the "No Chance" bit. Hero doesn't like absolutes.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Sean makes some very good points here.

 

But for clarity sake let me point out that he is referring to the rules as they apply to superhero characters (who must pay for everything) not heroic characters (who get most equipment for free).

 

A Fantasy Hero character (heroic) does not have to pay character points for a normal sword (which might be built as a HKA). Points ARE paid for the skills to be able to wield the sword. The character may not (or may depending on the GM's preference) have to pay experience points (which work just like character points) on a magic sword he found during an adventure.

 

 

S'right - I tend to play superhero games for preference so that tends to be my perspective. It is worth noting, as Hyper-Man says, that heroic level games work rather differently.

 

With superhero games I tend to assume that most 'real world' equipment is inferior to superpowers anyway. There are no guns that do 4d6 RKA, well nothing that wouldn't need a vehicle mount, and be bulky and slow to use. I tend to tone down the background deadliness and effectiveness of 'real world' equipment, and so, whilst 'summoning napalm' might be possible (or even just bringing some along), there are disadvantages - it is not as predictable as a power - you can't just shut it off, and if a bystander or teammate gets covered in it they are in trouble. Having said that I wouldn't be rating napalm at 15d6 killing - it might be a dice or two at most, continuous - more than enough to kill normals in seconds, not a lot more than an annoyance for many supers.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

What if instead of Captain Napalm, you have The Teleporter, a character that can do the following in game things:

 

1) Teleport anything he can see to anyplace he can see. (To keep this simpler, lets not even consider using TP against another character)

2) Teleport anything he knows where it is (say, stuff he has left in a room in his house for use as he adventures) to some where he can see. Range, unlimited, but he has a better chance to teleport the item if it's in a more familiar place or if it's closer. This means that stuff in his home he can TP no problem, as well as that glass he saw on the table in the other room (If it's still there.)

3) Teleport anything he can normally teleport above to a place he can't see, but can imagine, that is in range (1000 feet, say), perhaps having to roll for precision, such as placing the lit match in the gas tank.

 

Now, without making a VPP, how can I create the above character on 300 CP or so, in such a way that any use of the power that comes up in game will not fail due to not havnig purchased the right mechanics? For example, if I don't buy an Entangle, but later on I think to put a quantity of barbed wire in a room in my house, to be able to TP near/infront of/around baddies.

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later, which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?

 

Edit: And without having to spend more CP, which I may not have?

 

 

Simple Answer:

You can't.

 

300-350 point Champion characters can't normally do EVERYTHING that the sfx of their powers suggest they should be able to do. They are beginning characters and have to spend XP to get better.

 

If you wan't to build a character that has the complete expression of his power's special effect you will have to spend considerably more points.

 

Galactic Champions is a great source of information for such characters.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later, which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?

 

Edit: And without having to spend more CP, which I may not have?

 

You don't do anything like that ever because no one person could possibly think of all contingencies from the start.

 

That's WHY we have the Power Skill.

 

Let's look at "Teleport Object from a known location - My Base - to here" ability. You place Barbed Wire, a Machine Gun, Two Knives, a Pair Of Binoculars and a Tape Recorder. "Teleporting Things From My Base To Me" is your Special Effect.

 

You've bought all of that using the Powers that best model each one. But suddenly, everyone finds them selves with a little down time, sitting around a coffee shop and you go "Well, I have a deck of cards in my base, I'll just summon them" as an off the cuff comment In Character.

 

Any reasonable GM (Again, any GM worth playing with) will know your Power is ti Teleport something from your base to you. Teleporting your deck of cards to your hand is a minor effect and a cool show-off use of your powers. But you didn't "buy" a Power called "Teleport My Deck Of Cards To Me" - in the end, who cares! Worst case scenario, the GM makes you roll your Power Skill, most of the time they just go "OK."

 

And the Characters settle in to a nice game of Spades while waiting for the bad guys to show up.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Let's look at "Teleport Object from a known location - My Base - to here" ability. You place Barbed Wire, a Machine Gun, Two Knives, a Pair Of Binoculars and a Tape Recorder. "Teleporting Things From My Base To Me" is your Special Effect.

 

You've bought all of that using the Powers that best model each one.

 

Yes, and now you can't place anything else in your base for future teleportation without spending CP. For example, a flashlight - because you haven't bought any "light" mechanics and you don't have any CP.

 

I must be the only here who founds that unbearably artificial. You ask the GM - waitasec, don't I probably have a flashlight at home, most people do."

GM rolls: sure, you do

Player: OK I teleport to me so we don't have to fight these creatures in the total dark.

GM: Nope, you didn't prepurchase that effect and you have no CP left.

Player: What? Can't I teleport stuff from my house to me?

GM: Nope, you can't buy that ability. Teleporting stuff from your house is your SFX, meaning that you can only teleport the specific items you have paid for.

Player: But I wanted a character that could TP anything in my house to me! That doesn't seem too much to ask for.

GM: In Hero System, it is. But that's OK because it's a reallt cool system that you can learn to work with, and when things don't work out, you can blame yourself for not having had either the foresight in real life or the CP or both to have prebuilt it.

Player: I quit.

 

That's where I am at - does this make sense now? I want to know how in Hero System you buy an ability to do a reasonable group of things, such as the Things in my House. Since it requires a little prep, that shouldn't be a godawful powerful ability we must keep the players from getting therelittle hands on at all costs.

 

I *think* the truth is that, without GM hand-wavery and overriding, the Hero System is a game of mechanics first with the story existing secondarily and a lower priority level. Like in Forge games, the resources the plaer spends (or in this case, dont spend) overrule the internal logic of the game world.

 

And that causes me a massive and unnacceptable cognitive disconnect.

 

:(

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Oh, and for what it's worth...

 

the Variable Power Pool IS the contingency construct.

 

So I sort of change my mind, yes you can do that - it's called a VPP.

 

Well, at least now I feel a little more like I wasn't so far off base, since this is what I said at the beginning - the only way to get consistency and fidelity to the internal logic of the truths of the game world is to employ VPPs across the board.

 

:(

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

What if instead of Captain Napalm, you have The Teleporter, a character that can do the following in game things:

 

1) Teleport anything he can see to anyplace he can see. (To keep this simpler, lets not even consider using TP against another character)

2) Teleport anything he knows where it is (say, stuff he has left in a room in his house for use as he adventures) to some where he can see. Range, unlimited, but he has a better chance to teleport the item if it's in a more familiar place or if it's closer. This means that stuff in his home he can TP no problem, as well as that glass he saw on the table in the other room (If it's still there.)

3) Teleport anything he can normally teleport above to a place he can't see, but can imagine, that is in range (1000 feet, say), perhaps having to roll for precision, such as placing the lit match in the gas tank.

 

Now, without making a VPP, how can I create the above character on 300 CP or so, in such a way that any use of the power that comes up in game will not fail due to not havnig purchased the right mechanics? For example, if I don't buy an Entangle, but later on I think to put a quantity of barbed wire in a room in my house, to be able to TP near/infront of/around baddies.

 

You are starting with powerful absolutes, and you probably can get most of that into 300 points but you wont have much left over for other stuff. Being able to teleport anything you know about anywhere you like is a very beefy ability.

 

Let us summarise: you want to be able to teleport ANYTHING you can see or know the location of anywhere within 180" (about 1000feet) of you, even if you can not see the start or end points of the teleport. You want to be able to do this with a starting character.

 

Are there games out there with this kind of ability? I'm thinking not.

 

Anyway, TP UAA allows you to teleport stuff about. You'll need 'range' on that, and probably some extra range or even megascale. Teleporting stuff that far will generally have to be done non-combat or it will cost a LOT more.

 

Teleport is already sort of indirect as to the target - you can teleport stuff to somewhere you can't see. You can tag particular items with a floating point location to allow you to snag them. If you want to be able to teleport anything you know the location of then you probably need to buyy the power indirect or maybe buy some special senses to allow you to 'find' the start point of the jaunt. You'll need to buy plenty of extra mass to allow you to move big items.

 

It is probably easier to break this down to what you are going to be wanting to do. I'm thinking drop rocks/acid/petrol/barbed wire on targets. They are just attacks and it is probably easier to build them that way using teleport as the sfx. A variable sfx indirect RKA should do pretty nicely to cover most options. You might also want a Body drain for the acid. You may want to take an entangle too (also indirect) for that barbed wire in your living room. You freak :).

 

SO, UAA TP, RKA, Drain, Entangle. Stick it in a MP. Good to go. You don't need to worry about actually moving the barbed wire from home - that is just sfx, same as if you had a power that created barbed wire as an entangle. It is probably worth a small limtiation because you have to set it up in advance.

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later, which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?

 

Edit: And without having to spend more CP, which I may not have?

 

Ha! Buy yourself some pre-cognition. You can't expect a game system to come up with rules to make you infallible. You can make the whole thing a VPP, so that if you think of something new, and can build it within the points you have allocated, then you can do it. That will probably up the initial cost, but it depends how many slots your MP had: 15 slots is the point where an ultra* slotted MP and a cosmic VPP cost the same.

 

 

 

*showing my age...

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Alright, I'm feeling generous... This is exactly how I would build the three listed abilities:

 

1) Move The Goal Posts: Teleportation 10", Usable As Attack (x16 maximum weight per inanimate target; +2) (60 Active Points); Inanimate Objects Only (-1)

 

2) From My Base To My Hands: Variable Power Pool, 40 base + 40 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action (+1) (80 Active Points)

 

3) Now You See It, Now You Don't: Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Move The Goal Posts (45 Active Points)

 

Probably exceeds some standard Campaign Maximums, but the above, as built, cost me only 155 Character Points.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Well, at least now I feel a little more like I wasn't so far off base, since this is what I said at the beginning - the only way to get consistency and fidelity to the internal logic of the truths of the game world is to employ VPPs across the board.

 

:(

 

Unfortunately, all this statement does is show one of two things:

 

1) Your general lack of understanding of how Hero works.

 

2) Your complete and total desire to be UberMunchkin.

 

I'd like to think 1. Your posts are leading me to believe 2 in some regards.

 

If you give a thorough read of the book, and play some games, you will realize that things like "Flashlights" don't have to be paid for with points. Most games don't charge for them. Generally speaking - anything that you can walk into a Walmart, Home Deport, Office Depot or walk into a store and buy is not paid for with points. Anything that is an Attack (guns) is a notable exception.

 

the only difference between Paying Points and Getting For Free in a Superheroic Game (note: NOT HEROIC GAME) is that the person who paid points has more reliability. If you get gobsmacked by an enemy and tossed into a wall the GM may decide your flashlight broke.

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Re: Can this be done x 2

 

...........................

 

I must be the only here who founds that unbearably artificial. You ask the GM - waitasec, don't I probably have a flashlight at home, most people do."

GM rolls: sure, you do

Player: OK I teleport to me so we don't have to fight these creatures in the total dark.

GM: Nope, you didn't prepurchase that effect and you have no CP left.

Player: What? Can't I teleport stuff from my house to me?

GM: Nope, you can't buy that ability. Teleporting stuff from your house is your SFX, meaning that you can only teleport the specific items you have paid for.

Player: But I wanted a character that could TP anything in my house to me! That doesn't seem too much to ask for.

GM: In Hero System, it is. But that's OK because it's a reallt cool system that you can learn to work with, and when things don't work out, you can blame yourself for not having had either the foresight in real life or the CP or both to have prebuilt it.

Player: I quit.

 

That's where I am at - does this make sense now? I want to know how in Hero System you buy an ability to do a reasonable group of things, such as the Things in my House. Since it requires a little prep, that shouldn't be a godawful powerful ability we must keep the players from getting therelittle hands on at all costs.

 

I *think* the truth is that, without GM hand-wavery and overriding, the Hero System is a game of mechanics first with the story existing secondarily and a lower priority level. Like in Forge games, the resources the plaer spends (or in this case, dont spend) overrule the internal logic of the game world.

 

And that causes me a massive and unnacceptable cognitive disconnect.

 

:(

 

You worry too much and it sounds like you've got a rubbish GM. It is going to be a rare game where it is actually necessary to keep a player in the dark, so there will rarely be any need to prevent someone who can teleport objects from fetching a normal torch. If the GM really doesn't want you to have it either your house burned down while you were away, or you get the torch but the batteries are dead. A normal torch would not counter all the penalties for darkness anyway. Something as relatively insignificant as that either should be handwaved (which is not a dirty word) if it is logical given the power and won't upset game balance.

 

Of course you won't let it lie there, you get stuck in a cell and want to TP in the oxy-acetelyne torch from home. I'm getting wise to you...

 

Fine. Buy a slot in your MP for transform or summon. That will allow you to create (or bring from home) whatever you might have stored there.

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