Can this be done x 2

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

If you want to have an unbounded set of diversely useful objects you can call to you (any object I can convince my GM I OBVIOUSLY had in my house, despite never having given any indication of it previously; I mean, why should I have to declare what things are in my pocket, err, I mean house before whipping them out in combat?) then you want the construct in the game that gives an unbounded set of diversely useful options: VPP. If you want to have a predefined set of diversely useful options, that can be an MP. VPP is I have unboundedly diverse choices on the fly, MP is I predefine my choices.

 

This isn't a weakness of Hero system. For a weakness of Hero system see STR, DEX, and maybe HA.

 

Well, the only issue I have is that so many typical powers require a VPP to fully emulate what the should be capable to model them in the reality of the game world, or else you again run afoul of the mechanical limitation without a good internal story justification.

 

Therefore, if you build most A-list supers, especially with start CP, even BIG starting CP like 500 points, you wind up needing to use VPP in many of them to truly capture their range of options.

 

On the other hand, maybe having VPP's required for all non-2d characters (as Sean put it) is just part of the Hero system way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Well of course' date=' you have no obligation to miss valueable sleep and come up with the actual writeup of the ability... On the other hand, I can't really comment until I have such a writeup in front of me.. [/quote']

 

Sindyr, I've asked for a list of stuff in the house that is out of the ordinary. Can I assume there is nothing out of the ordinary in the house?

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I answered that. It's a VPP. End of discussion.

 

Any other questions?

 

Yes, I thought I was right. You *can't* do it without VPP. And probably also right that many if not most realistically modeled characters would need a VPP to correctly model their wide range of options.

 

The things is, other systems by giving not "effects" but "powers", do not require such a thing.

 

I am not directly saying one is better than the other... but I do kind prefer buying one power as opposed to buying an *everything* power because the system doesn't let you buy any actual powers, just effects.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Sindyr' date=' I've asked for a list of stuff in the house that is out of the ordinary. Can I assume there is nothing out of the ordinary in the house?[/quote']

 

Let's assume that there is nothing in him house that can't be bought at a walmart, grocery store, electronics store, or online for under 500$.

 

Not that he has ALL that stuff now, but if he thinks he is going to need something, he just has to buy it and from that point on, he has it in his house.

 

(And I would track his money so that he doesnt just buy everything.)

 

But seriously, Sean, you are making me feel guilty - get some sleep, this can wait until tomorrow dude - it's only rpging. Sleep is more important.

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I sincerely can't agree that it unboundedly versatile, because I can't call something to me that I haven't at some point had myself or someone else put in the house.

 

Still, it is *very* versatile.

 

It is unbounded in that you are not willing to accept any given finite list and say "yep, that is the complete list." You did, after all, bet that any list we gave you you could find something not on the list to add.

 

...just make sure that the attunement does take *too* long to the point that it seems unrealistic... of course that's much more open to interpretation' date=' if we are not talking days or weeks or months[/quote']

 

The attunement takes exactly long enough for you to get around to spending the points.

If you say in game "I'm attuning to this object" and then never spend the points, you're intentionally (or just carelessly) creating a problem with plot/mechanic discrepency. Generally I would do it more like at the end of the session I get the XP, plug it into HD, see that I can get the effect I want and confirm with the GM and say at that point "I'm attuning to this object". If the game is at a point where that doesn't make sense, I sometimes spend points between sessions for benefits I don't claim until a plot-break allows it to slip in.

I spent points on my Base first, then went and said "When we're between scenes, my character is spending time finding a building to buy and such."

[incrdbil]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

So basically, if you have a summon power, you can summon anything that doesn't conflict with another power... You can summon barbed wire, but it can't Entangle people. You can summon a steel wall, but it can't protect you with PD/ED/Def the way a Force Field would. You can summon Napalm, but it's not going to be able to be lit.

 

There are some problems I see coming straight for me with this - which I guess are just how the Hero System works.

 

Nope, you just aren;t getting it. You don't 'summon napalm'. If you wanted to reflect an ability that matched the description of summoning Napalm, you'ld by soem form of attack powers with whatever advantages and limitation you feel simulates how you want Napalm to behave for your genre.

 

I have a character called the Architect, whose power is to be able to make stuff from nothing - walls, barbed wire, cars, napalm.

 

For Hero--that is best done as a Variable Power Pool. Thats a very powerful, and incredibly flexible ability, so no standard framework or group of powers would do.

 

In order to REALLY be able to do this in game, I the *player* have to know during the character building process all the different ways I need to buy various mechanics to equal this overall ability.

 

Withthe VPP, you wouldnt have to know during the building process. But at the time you 'summon' an object, you'ld choose the power and various advantages/disadvantages that reflect the effect you are trying to achieve, and are relevant to the use of the power at the time.

 

But if I leave one out, say I don't buy an RKA, then suddenly either I can bring into being being anything except napalm, or I can bring napalm into being, but the darn stuff doesn't light. Both seem to be cognitive disconnects.

 

Nope--that just would be a mistake in buying your powers. The system can't stop you on its own from building a chaacter the wrong way.

 

 

 

Of course, for people who want powers that do not correspond neatly one-to-one with the mechanics listed, you could just make everyone buy VPPs, but that seems a little cheesy.

 

Well, what you are describing is a 'cheesy' power to some.

 

Want a Speedster, while making sure that nothing is left out, buy a VPP.

 

"The nothing left out" sounds like wanting everythign for free, IMO.

 

 

 

Heck, even a simple energy projector that wants to use his blast to shoot a hole in the road ahead of a truck in order to stop it may find the mechanics don't let him because he never bought Entangle for his Energy Blast character - he shoulda purchased a VPP.

 

 

Wrong again. An energy blast can put a hole in a road. The GM could make the player of the truck roll to to avoid the hole, or keep control. A hole in the road isnt going to automatically work like a barrier created by an entangle, for free, all the time unless you buy entangle. But you can still stop the truck in the method you mentioned, of shooting a hole in the road..but maybe not as easily as someone who paid points for the perfect power to do so. It would depend on the material of the road, strength of your EB, the timign of the shot, skill of the driver--but its certainly possible, and not something you cant do because you didnt by entangle.

 

 

A VPP seems to be the only way to make sure that you can employ the mechanics to live up to the vision. But if everyone is being better served by VPPs, the system itself seems flawed to me, even if it is Working As Intended.

 

I think your vision is a bit off, and doesn't reconcioile with things like game balance, realistic character concepts, and tends to ignore that there are ways to affect an environment without having to buya power for every attempt to do so.

 

 

Another example - you are want your character to be able to teleport small objects anywhere with 500 feet, including into closed boxes and other places you can't see.

 

Well, if the GM is dumb enough to allow that power, they deserve what they get.

 

 

Apart from hand wavey kludging, like "A gust of wind blows it out beofe you TP it" or (fudging) "ummm... their gas tank just happens to have a hardened force field around it." you are forced to do one of two things - say "OK, the car goes boom" giving the player a free use of RKA with AoE; or say "the rules do not permit that, no matter that there's no good reason within the story why you couldn't do that..."

 

Well, lets say the GM let that power slip through. He has a few options--it works, sort of. If they player can hit a moving target. If your describing a power that is unfailingly accurate..well, again, the GM's at fault for letting a game-wrecking power in his game. Sometimes, you just say no to a players desire, no matter how much he wants if, if it unbalances the game.

 

But if he can put it in the tank (after getting the match out, lighting it, and gettign it there before it goes out, and placing it just right in the tank to maximize the chance of ignition-then yeah, there should be a boom.) If the player demands or argues the power should always be accurate, can't miss, and the level of oposition in the game is unable to stp such effects or take such damage, then the player should be paying an appropriate cost for the ability. that may entail him having to take an attack power. (Maybe a multi-power, not everything has to be a VPP). But if you want unlimited freedom to use a special effect to represent a myriad of other powers with complete reliability at any time, then a VPP is what you should be buying, because that is what you are sking for.

 

But thinking how expensive the above power you desribed above, if the player is being chased by anyone who is a threat to him, they probably have taken protections against that power (or would after the first few uses), or maybe just aren't bothered by piddly such things as exploding cars. Or even easier--they have teleport nullification powers.

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Let's assume that there is nothing in him house that can't be bought at a walmart, grocery store, electronics store, or online for under 500$.

 

Not that he has ALL that stuff now, but if he thinks he is going to need something, he just has to buy it and from that point on, he has it in his house.

 

(And I would track his money so that he doesnt just buy everything.)

 

But seriously, Sean, you are making me feel guilty - get some sleep, this can wait until tomorrow dude - it's only rpging. Sleep is more important.

For 1 cp he makes $100,000 per year. For 5 cp he's a millionare. Now he can buy a bigger house to hold the legions of random $500 or less items.

Actually, Money itself is probably a bigger destroyer of believability in the game system than anything else. After all, shouldn't a multibillionare be able to just hire an army of extremely well equipped soldiers to take care of whatever problems arise? Yet having those billions of dollars doesn't automatically get you a 2d6 RKA (pistol) for free? WTF? What you can reasonably expect to do with the kind of money you get for 15 cp and what a sane GM will let you do in game with the kind of money you get for 15 cp are two radically different things. After all, the GM has to try and make that 15 cp worth of money in practice about equally valuable with a bit of super strength (+15 to be precise), or for that matter a pistol (2d6 RKA, OAF). In practice it does nifty story effect things, but doesn't become a replacement for other things you pay CP for.

 

 

Also, amusingly, your 'packrat' idea, if you took away the option to violently drop things on your opponent, seems to basically be the same effect as a Bag of Holding; you have an unreasonably large inventory of items on hand (items which you could otherwise have in your possession anyways). Anyone want to take a stab on what THAT should cost?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Let's assume that there is nothing in him house that can't be bought at a walmart, grocery store, electronics store, or online for under 500$.

 

Not that he has ALL that stuff now, but if he thinks he is going to need something, he just has to buy it and from that point on, he has it in his house.

 

(And I would track his money so that he doesnt just buy everything.)

 

But seriously, Sean, you are making me feel guilty - get some sleep, this can wait until tomorrow dude - it's only rpging. Sleep is more important.

 

That covers a lot of ground. Do Walmart sell guns?

 

Anyway, try this. Not perfect, but it should cover most of the bases. The range is not unlimited - max about 600km. Forgot to put an entangle in - that is another 7 points and should have megascale on the clairsentience range (which is there simply so you can target home), which increases the cost to 30 points. Even so it all costs 160 points and could probably be made a bit cheaper with some appropriate limitations. The TP has megascale twice because you need it for range and distance. You can use the summon or transform to 'build' pretty much anything you could buy at Walmart.

 

70 Multipower, 70-point reserve

6u 1) Teleportation 6", Indirect (Any origin, always fired away from attacker; +½), MegaScale (1" = 10 km; +½), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 10m (+¼), MegaScale (1" = 10 km; +½), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 10m (+¼), Usable As Attack (x32 maximum weight per inanimate target; +2 ¼) (63 Active Points) 6

6u 2) Summon 120-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings Limited Group (+½), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (60 Active Points) 6

6u 3) Major Transform 2 ½d6, Improved Results Group (+½) (60 Active Points) 6

7u 4) Energy Blast 8d6, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; +¼), Indirect (Any origin, always fired away from attacker; +½) (70 Active Points) 7

7u 5) Killing Attack - Ranged 2 ½d6, Increased Maximum Range (350"; +0), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; +¼), Indirect (Any origin, always fired away from attacker; +½) (70 Active Points) 7

7u 6) Drain BODY 3d6, any [special effect] power one at a time (+¼), Ranged (+½), Indirect (Any origin, always fired away from attacker; +½) (67 Active Points) 7

17 Clairsentience (Sight Group), Mobile Perception Point (can move up to 6" per Phase), Targeting (35 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only to target items at home; -1) 3

[incrdbil]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Yes' date=' I thought I was right. You *can't* do it without VPP. And probably also right that many if not most realistically modeled characters would need a VPP to correctly model their wide range of options. [/quote']

 

Nope--but to get the infinite amount of power usage you personally want out of a special effect, a VPP might be called for.

 

The things is, other systems by giving not "effects" but "powers", do not require such a thing.

 

Umm, I dont know of many systems that give you unlimited additional powers for a simple effect.Most systems define powers abilities within fairly narrow aprameters, and when you try to make them do somethign else, the GM has to reason out an effect and apply modifiers to it for the appropriate game effect, or make the player take and pay for an additional ability if they keep demanding to use power A like powers B-Z on demand.

 

You're having problems because you're missing the basic fundamentals of character creation and what special effects are about.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Well' date=' the only issue I have is that so many typical powers require a VPP to fully emulate what the should be capable to model them in the reality of the game world, or else you again run afoul of the mechanical limitation without a good internal story justification.[/quote']

 

This is an incorrect statement.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

...

 

The Deliveryman can teleport himself and nearly anything he can see for a variety of in-game effects.

 

the following list is by no means complete.

 

75 Pickup & Delivery Powers: Multipower, 75-point reserve

7u 1) Same Day Pickup & Delivery: Teleportation 15", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, x4 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 2) Next Day Ground: Teleportation 10", No Relative Velocity, x32 Noncombat, x4 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 3) Next Day Air: Teleportation 5", No Relative Velocity, x4 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1,000 km; +1), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 4) Special Pickup: Teleportation 10", Ranged (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), Usable As Attack (+1) (75 Active Points) - END=7

6u 5) Special Delivery: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Whatever the material that is teleported into target; +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1) (75 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4) - END=7

 

The first 3 slots are personal movement only and the differences between them is primarily the distance traveled.

The last 2 slots are combat oriented. The one with UAA can be used to 'grab' nearly anything or anyone. The RKA represents literally teleporting something into something or someone else. Both the UAA and the NND still need to have a defense described.

 

Here is a more comprehensive but by no means all encompassing version:

 

75 Deliveryman Powers: Multipower, 75-point reserve

7u 1) Same Day Pickup & Delivery: Teleportation 15", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, x4 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 2) Next Day Ground: Teleportation 10", No Relative Velocity, x32 Noncombat, x4 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 3) Next Day Air: Teleportation 5", No Relative Velocity, x4 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1,000 km; +1), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 4) Special Pickup: Teleportation 10", Ranged (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), Usable As Attack (+1) (75 Active Points) - END=7

6u 5) Special Delivery: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Whatever the material that is teleported into target; +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1) (75 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4) - END=7

6u 6) We'll Box It For You: Entangle 6d6, 6 DEF, Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4) (75 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; Based on material used to create Entangle; -1/4) - END=7

7u 7) Let's Open That Package: Dispel 5d6, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Any focus or physical manifestation based ability; +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Cumulative (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), all [special effect] powers simultaneously (+2) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 8) I'm Sorry, We Lost Your Package: Naked Advantage: Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4) for up to 40 Active Points, Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (75 Active Points) - END=7

7u 9) Let's See If We Have That In Stock: Clairsentience (Sight Group), x64 Range (14,400"), Analyze, Discriminatory, Targeting, Tracking (75 Active Points) - END=7

 

25 Tracking Labels: Teleportation: Floating Fixed Location (5 Locations)

 

I'll leave out the obvious Missile Deflection possibilities for now.

 

Slot 7 is good against focus based characters

Slot 8 would allow the character to redirect someone else's power (like a teammate) of up to 40 active points at range and at any direction he chooses.

Slot 9 would allow the character to find something. (He could assign a "Tracking Label" to later teleport it).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I bet that any non VPP you could design beforehand' date=' I can (after you do that) come up with an item I could put in my house that wouldn't be covered in a story-truth appropriate way. Then we are back to the GM saying, "well, you can't teleport *that*."[/quote']

 

All that says is "you need a VPP". You are also assuming a lot. Why would barbed wire, laid neatly on the floor, conveniently wrap itself around someone you try to drop it on?

 

That is the first sign that the power is defined way too broadly and is probably too versatile for anything short of a VPP.

 

Exactly

 

I think you are either missing my point, or demonstrating it.

 

In a non-effects based system, you spend your build points for the SFX (like teleport) and then get to continually come up with creative ways to use and leverage the base power/ability.

 

Example: You buy TP in Hero, you can move someting from A to B if that's all it does. You buy TP in, say, MEGS, you can move an object above a baddie and drop it on them, without having to know before that later you would use teleport that way.

 

I find most such games end up with house rules banning or modifying certain abilities that are deemed "broken". Teleporting tin cans into the target's chest to surround their heart and cause instant death, for example, while matching the "teleport things into other things" SFX, likely should not be priced as a minor ability.

 

The only way to get that flexibility of creative power use in each character is to make each character get a VPP.

 

Try this. Go to the Champions board. Look for "classic characters" or something like that. It's near the top. A host of characters have been written up on a 250 point budget.

 

So we STILL have the same problem - the barbed wire is in my home' date=' but I can't teleport it because I have no XP/CP to add to my character sheet.[/quote']

 

Or you can't prepare it and teleport it such that it causes any meaningful effect. OK, there's a coil of barbed wire in the air, falling. The villain casually bats it out of his way. You had the power to teleport it, not cause it to wrap itself around the villain.

 

This is way too fishy when it happens each time - the coincidences pile up when players realize that it's just a thin veil of the GM saying NO.

 

How many times before you have the couple of points it takes to add a flashlight to your multipower? Or do you expect to "forget" hundreds of effects you "should get" for "convenient household objects" that you should then get for free, after spending your points on something else?

 

Therefore, if you build most A-list supers, especially with start CP, even BIG starting CP like 500 points, you wind up needing to use VPP in many of them to truly capture their range of options.

 

On the other hand, maybe having VPP's required for all non-2d characters (as Sean put it) is just part of the Hero system way.

 

Again, see Classic Characters on the Champions board. Characters with 350 points will be better fleshed out.

 

EDIT: The thread is

Go to first new post Classic Comic Book Characters - it starts with this post:

 

This thread will be my versions of Classic Comic Book Characters. I want to put all my versions in one thread from now on.

 

so all you need to do is click on the little arrow above.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

From another viewpoint. Synder, you harp on "the things I could realistically do with these powers". As a GM, I might be very willing to allow you the "realistic" positive results if you are prepared to accept the "realistic" negative results.

 

Does your character have a secret identity? Isn't it odd that he buys so many appliances? How does he get them home? Does he get the store to deliver them ("It will be there on Tuesday")? Does he haul them home in a pickup truck ("Maude, here comes the neighbour with another fridge - fourth one this week." "Jake, didn't Household Appliance Man drop a fridge just like the one he hauled in yesterday on Grond's head this afternoon." "Why I reckon he did - ain't that an amazing co-inky-dink.")? Not to mention a methodical villain - or government agent, or reporter - following up on barbed wire purchases in the area. There can't be a lot of residential bulk barbed wire purchases, can there?

 

Where does he get barbed wire, chemicals to make napalm or what have you? "My name is Agent Smith with Homeland Security, Mr. ID. We have a warrant to search your residence. Seems you've been making some unusual purchases." Reduce your items to ordinary household goods that don't require any form of registration and aren't unusual purchases, and that reduces the possibilities pretty significantly. Sure, you can have a flashlight. Can you do much of use when you find what you're looking for in the dark?

 

Maybe he has no secret ID. Of course, that brings its own problems - it's easy to find out where he lives. Burn the house down and his powers aren't good for much, are they? He's mobbed with press and papparazzi whenever he shops. People break into his house to steal "superhero memorabilia" to sell on ebay.

 

How many appliances are in your house? Once you're out, you don't have that attack any more. Charges can reduce the cost of powers considerably, especially if you still spend END to use them. That makes squeezing this into your 200 point maximum pretty easy. Characters with wide suites of powers like you describe tend to have no other powers, so spending a significant percentage of your character points on the various permutations of this one unusual ability seems reasonable.

 

Nothing in his power screams "defenses". You drop a fridge on one VIPER agent. Another nine fire their blaster rifles at you.

[Beast]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

you want everything but have no intention of paying for it

you think that 1 special effect teleport object should give you what you want

you want a shovel go ahead I'd give you a 10 lb sledge if you wanted it

but your 20 str hero using a 4d6 club with a 10 str min is only going to do 6d6 damage it might hurt an agent if you miss hitting his armor

any 350 pt villain is going to laugh at you

 

you want to do damage you need to pay for said damage

not munchkin your way around to not pay for it

 

yep I used the "M" word

you have been shown how to do things with a VPP or Multipower and you still whine

 

yep I used the "W" word too

 

most things in a normal house will not harm a normal super powered being

short of dropping the house on them or your car which if I was GM would make you pay for each and everytime you did it so you might as well buy up your wealth too cause your going to need it

 

here is a thought for you the more versatile you are the weaker you will be

think jack of all trades and master of none

 

what you want is to be 1000 point character in a 350 point game

might be fun for you but not the others in your game

 

 

Like what? Most any non-rare thing is something the player can say "I wish I had a shovel at home - GM, as soon as I get back to my home, I am going to pick up a shovel at the local hardware store and put it in my house."

 

I mean, it makes sense for many things not to be in the house the FIRST time he wants them, but (If he can get home soon) that can be quickly rectified from that point on.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I think this kind of mindset is encouraged by other RPG's to some extent.

 

I've heard of and experienced many situations where one player asks if they can get creative with a spell, magic item or other ability in a way not covered explicitly by the rules*. The GM usually allows the creative idea to the extent that the player documented on their character sheet or gamelog that the character had the specific requisite items to carry out the creative idea.

 

*At the extreme end - Like turning a simple D&D Create Water spell into the equivalent to a NND Does BODY Killing Attack.

 

I think it happens when a GM has thrown too much at the PC's and is trying to be merciful and can't think of a better way to do it at the time. He's probably willing to let any bull$#!+ idea fly just so they can end the game session before 2am!

[lemming]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

My philosophy is you can try for anything, just don't be annoying about it.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

So basically, if you have a summon power, you can summon anything that doesn't conflict with another power... You can summon barbed wire, but it can't Entangle people. You can summon a steel wall, but it can't protect you with PD/ED/Def the way a Force Field would. You can summon Napalm, but it's not going to be able to be lit.

 

There are some problems I see coming straight for me with this - which I guess are just how the Hero System works.

 

I have a character called the Architect, whose power is to be able to make stuff from nothing - walls, barbed wire, cars, napalm. In order to REALLY be able to do this in game, I the *player* have to know during the character building process all the different ways I need to buy various mechanics to equal this overall ability. But if I leave one out, say I don't buy an RKA, then suddenly either I can bring into being being anything except napalm, or I can bring napalm into being, but the darn stuff doesn't light. Both seem to be cognitive disconnects.

 

This, by the by, can be done pretty much legally with a slightly creative but book legal application of Transform.

 

Major Transform ("Nothing" or "Thin Air" into "Just about anything") Expanded target group (+1).

allows you to create a volume of whatever based on the body you roll on the dice. Furthermore, you can add powers during a transformation, 5 active points per body.

You want a steel wall? Add Armor Pd & ED in equal amounts to match the DEF of Steel (Around 8 IIRC) (24 points i.e. an extra 5 body)

You want Napalm? Work up a Triggered Continuous RKA area of effect one hex power that suits you, divide the active points by 5 and that's the target body you have to hit, plus at least 1 body extra, to create it. I figured "One Hex" because additional volume/coverage would be based on the BODY total.

 

Then you can stand over the puddle with a match and ask if they need a light

 

All you really need is a pretty beefy (say 6-7d6) Transform and Bob's your uncle for this one.

One power.

The usual caveat with this sort of power is in order to use "Creation" style transforms, you generally need skills related to what you're creating, tho a generous GM could let a lot of those fall under a Power skill.

[Markdoc]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

So basically' date=' if you have a summon power, you can summon anything that doesn't conflict with another power... You can summon barbed wire, but it can't Entangle people. You can summon a steel wall, but it can't protect you with PD/ED/Def the way a Force Field would. You can summon Napalm, but it's not going to be able to be lit.[/quote']

 

Nope, you are missing the point, whole and entire. You can't "summon napalm" Summon is a power construct and "napalm" is not a power. RKA is a power. If you want RKA, buy RKA, don't say "I want to have an RKA, but I don't actually, you know, want to actually have it". You can no more "summon napalm" than you can "summon happiness". Let me point this out again in case you missed it. "Napalm" is a special effect and you do not use special effects in place of mechanics.

 

I'm hammering this, because if you want to GM Hero you have to understand the difference.

 

I have a character called the Architect' date=' whose power is to be able to make stuff from nothing - walls, barbed wire, cars, napalm. In order to REALLY be able to do this in game, I the *player* have to know during the character building process all the different ways I need to buy various mechanics to equal this overall ability. But if I leave one out, say I don't buy an RKA, then suddenly either I can bring into being being anything except napalm, or I can bring napalm into being, but the darn stuff doesn't light. Both seem to be cognitive disconnects.[/quote']

 

No, they're just examples of a character which requires a little thought. In this case, all you need is a VPP (variable power pool) which gives you a chunk of points you can configure as you like. That means you don't need to define every thing ahead of time, but you do need to know the rules well enough to build what you want.

 

Of course' date=' for people who want powers that do not correspond neatly one-to-one with the mechanics listed, you could just make everyone buy VPPs, but that seems a little cheesy. Want a Speedster, while making sure that nothing is left out, buy a VPP. Want someon who controls Fire? VPP. A summoner? VPP. Heck, even a simple energy projector that wants to use his blast to shoot a hole in the road ahead of a truck in order to stop it may find the mechanics don't let him because he never bought Entangle for his Energy Blast character - he shoulda purchased a VPP. A VPP seems to be the only way to make sure that you can employ the mechanics to live up to the vision. But if everyone is being better served by VPPs, the system itself seems flawed to me, even if it is Working As Intended.[/quote']

 

Nope, VPPs fill a specific need. For your character who can create lots of things to simulate totally different powers, a VPP is the way to go. For many of the other examples (Stop a truck by blasting a hole in the road? So blast a hole in the road, already. You don't need entangle for that). "Controls Fire"? What does that even mean? To be able to define a character who "controls fire" you need to be able to define - mechanically - what you want the character to do. It might be as simple as Energy blast and a limited telekinesis or it might be much more. VPP might be answer, or it might not, depending on how broad your concept is. To make this work, you need to think about mechanics, not special effects. Once you have the mechanics you define the effects to fit your concept.

 

I know that all of this is probably heresy, but I think it needs to be said, especially because I keep hoping I have something wrong here.

 

Another example - you are want your character to be able to teleport small objects anywhere with 500 feet, including into closed boxes and other places you can't see. You buy the teleport power, with appropriate modifications. The later, when you are in a car chase being chased by the bad guys, you tell the GM youare pulling out your matchbook, striking a match, and teleporting it into the gas tank of the car chasing you.

 

Apart from hand wavey kludging, like "A gust of wind blows it out beofe you TP it" or (fudging) "ummm... their gas tank just happens to have a hardened force field around it." you are forced to do one of two things - say "OK, the car goes boom" giving the player a free use of RKA with AoE; or say "the rules do not permit that, no matter that there's no good reason within the story why you couldn't do that..."

 

Guess he should bought the VPP instead of TP too.

 

No, it's not heresy: you're confusing special effects and powers again. Powers interact with the universe around the players, which is also built with powers. As a GM, I'd permit the approach you suggest above (with the caveat to the player up front that you cannot teleport objects into other objects without buying a heaping helping of RKA: no fair trying to get a free power). But if he buys the power, then he gets to use it. To make it work, he's going to need teleport, usable as an attack, he's going to have to make attack rolls to put his target exactly where he wants, etc. But the power is buildable as you describe.

 

In fact, here's a character I played with exactly that power. Note that he also has things like Forcewall and RKA, to cover common power uses.

 

Of course, a smart GM would just say "Yeah you are pretty sure the match went in the gas tank. Nothing happens. No, you don't know why" since a match submerged in gasoline (away from oxygen) will just go out. But that's just a side issue: with a little more work, you could come up with something suitable (teleport a grenade into the gas tank, if you had one, for example). A guy with EB could also blast the gas tank to crate an area effect explosion without having to buy the explosion advantage himself.

 

Am I alone in thinking this is crazy? Or does Hero permit after all the TPer to blow up the chase car by using only the TP of a lit match?

 

Heh. You are neither alone, nor crazy, just a little confused over how the system works. Again, the player defines his own powers. He then uses those powers to interact with the universe. So no, you can't "summon napalm". That's not a power. But if there is napalm lying around (either because you, as the player bought a triggered RKA, or because the GM provided some) then yeah, you can light it with a match.

 

You can - for example - use your energy blast to shoot a chain and drop a bunch of building material to pin your foe without buying entangle. But that relies on there being a chain, a bunch of building material, a foe underneath it, etc. That's an improvised attack and like the match that goes out in liquid gasoline, may not function exactly as you like. If you want to entangle opponents routinely, buy entangle.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Side Note: That would make a hilarious special effect for a PC's Ego Attack.

 

What does it say that I already considered Ego attack but settled on Mind Control (one command only, stand still, think of madeleines and quietly weep, -1)

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

My philosophy is you can try for anything' date=' just don't be annoying about it.[/quote']

 

Can I help it I'm annoying?

 

[jtelson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Maybe that is the key for me and my group. Maybe we need to play this game backwards.

 

Instead of focussing on points, maybe we should just decide what powers with what limits each has, and then build that, however many points it needs in the System.

 

Of course, then we have to do any balancing ourselves, as opposed to a game like BoH/MEGS, in which I believe you can use points to buy powers instead of effects.

 

Plus if we have to do all the character creation balancing work ourselves, we could just stay in Torg.

 

But it's an interesting idea I will bring up when we meet.

 

BoH/MEGS is the DC Heroes system, the one with the logarithmic scale and Jimmy Olsen can knock the planet out of orbit (Not real likely but possible, IIRC)? That didn't stop us from playing it, every Supers Game with the possible exception of GURPS has scaling issues (Aunt May has a good chance of living through multiple full on blows from Thor's Hammer, Never hand a baby a football...). Sorry, that's a digression but I wanted to be sure we were talking the same language.

 

Systems with a listing of powers can work fine, until you want a power that's not on the list with Hero and assuming GM approval there's nothing you can't have the potential to do (There is a Caveat that, as this is a game, things are not always guarenteed to suceed, this seems to bae a sticking point for you)

 

The thing is that based on your posts and contrary to what you've written here you're not actually worried about balance in character creation. From the sounds of things your group is an ingeni-ocracy; Rule by the most creative (Sophon-ocracy? Sophocracy? that might be better). Once again, nothing wrong with it- whatever works for your group, but Hero definately wants to create a more balanced starting point.

 

You want players to define how the ability works in the Game World, then stop and be able to do anything that your group feels is a reasonable extension of that. The Hero System's core premise requires a bit more work than that; When you define how the power works in the game world, you decide what those reasonable extentions are and then build your character. It makes fair more important than easy. It doesn't want my character to be more powerful than John's character simply because I think differently than he does, because I've read more comic books than he has, watched more MacGuyver then he ... you get the point.

 

Your teleport power, by the way, is off the charts powerful. If the character has SS: Chemistry, SS: Physics, Demolition, Electronic, Mechanics and Analyze: Super Powers, as well as a small level of wealth (About 25 points worth of stuff) and the assumption that real world items are available you've created one of the most powerful people on the planet. That being said, if you want to model your powers the way it seems like you do buy Telescopic Sight +44, N-Ray Vision only to see into house, requires Int (Memory) roll, About 13 million inches of Teleport UAA, No Range Modifier, Indirect?, End point must be within X inches of character and you're done. The Teleport would likely be a multipower of several scaled teleports based on how far away from home you are. Expensive, but very powerful.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I apologize, we are talking about a different power at this point on this thread.

 

I don't know how to define it in Hero System terms (and the challenge is to do it without using a VPP), but what it does is wherever in the world teh Packrat is, he can teleport any object from his house to any spot near him, within say 30 feet. He doesn't even have to know where the thing is in his house.

 

For one example, if the Packrat find himself in the dark, and there is a flashlight in the Packrat's house somewhere, even if the Packrat cannot remember where in the house the flashlight is, he can teleport to himself - or to any place within 30 feet of him.

 

Obviously, if anyone surrounds the Packrat with a Hardened Forcefield, it would probably stop this power, unless he buys ArmorPiercing or something.

 

But anything the Packrat has at his house he can TP to him (or a point within 30 feet of him.)

 

How do you build that in such a way that the Packrat's player can later say "I told you I was getting an X, and putting it in my house, now I want to TP the X to me" and the GM cannot say "you didn't by that effect".

 

YOU DO IT WITH A VARIABLE POWER POOL!!!!!!!! HAVE YOU NOT BEEN LISTENING????????

 

We've given you the answer repeatedly, it's not our problem, or a fault in the HERO system, if you don't like that answer.

[tarragon]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Stop worrying about points.

 

This is great advice for the style of game sindyr seems to want to play.

 

There was a wonderful writeup of playing Champions pointless in one of the early Digital Heroes. My Google-Fu 17- finds me: a copy of it on the wayback machine.

[AwesomusPrime]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

If you are in the middle of a session, and the player has no CP left to spend, but his character ostensibly was supposed to be able to something anything commonly present somewhere on the earth, it doesn't matter how to build it, he has no points left. At which point, you would blame the player or GM.

 

But you can't blame the player or GM for not thinking of every possible way that summoning stuff could be used. It's just not possible to guarantee that the player won't have an Aha moment later, when his character points are gone.

 

And since he has no character points, the GM has to tell him even though it makes no sense for his character to NOT be able to do this one small thing when he has done stuff just like it all along, he can't because he has no points. - Or not enough.

 

That's the issue.

 

 

Is this what you're asking:

 

Character A finds dynamite and match on ground: can character a cause damage to persons/objects with said dynamite dispite lack of character points in relevant attack?

 

Obviously yes.

 

If you're the GM and you want this stuff to happen all the time, go for it. The majority of the community here wouldn't want to play the kind of game you are proposing.

 

If everyone can find dynamite on the ground, why would anyone spend character points in a gun?

[AwesomusPrime]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

What if instead of Captain Napalm, you have The Teleporter, a character that can do the following in game things:

 

1) Teleport anything he can see to anyplace he can see. (To keep this simpler, lets not even consider using TP against another character)

2) Teleport anything he knows where it is (say, stuff he has left in a room in his house for use as he adventures) to some where he can see. Range, unlimited, but he has a better chance to teleport the item if it's in a more familiar place or if it's closer. This means that stuff in his home he can TP no problem, as well as that glass he saw on the table in the other room (If it's still there.)

3) Teleport anything he can normally teleport above to a place he can't see, but can imagine, that is in range (1000 feet, say), perhaps having to roll for precision, such as placing the lit match in the gas tank.

 

Now, without making a VPP, how can I create the above character on 300 CP or so, in such a way that any use of the power that comes up in game will not fail due to not havnig purchased the right mechanics? For example, if I don't buy an Entangle, but later on I think to put a quantity of barbed wire in a room in my house, to be able to TP near/infront of/around baddies.

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later, which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?

 

Edit: And without having to spend more CP, which I may not have?

 

 

 

By your TP as a gateway with lots of indirect and usable on/by others etc. and couple that with TK only usable through the gateway.

 

Open a gateway into your home, tk the object into your hand, open a gateway into a gastank, drop match, open a gateway with one end near something you can see and another end near something you can see and teleport object near gateway from one end to the other.

 

Would be an expensive power, the gateway would have to be able to compnesate for any object in existance and the TK would have to be of infinite strength, plus you'll want to make them both invisable to support your non-gateway involving SFX. I'm thinking infinity-1 points or so?

 

Seriously if you'd allow your tp guy to have a few weight restrictions on what he can lift/tp you could likely do this on a 300 point character.