Building Hero with Hero

[Sean Waters]

Been talking about suffocation recently and it strikes me that a problem we have with it is that it is not easily rendered to Hero 'code' - it is overly complex to build suffocation as a power. The same might be said of falling, although that is probably easier - it just costs an awful lot. Most other environmnetal effects are built in a straightforward way - fire or electricity is a KA or whatever.

 

I'm wondering if there are any other examples of 'system/game environment effects' which are disconnected from the system?

[Vondy]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Isn't it just a 2d6-4d6 NND?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Isn't it just a 2d6-4d6 NND?

 

No, it prevents you taking recoveries and damages END as well as Stun and (eventually) Body. You can build it but it is a big, sprawling thing not completely out of proportion to the actual 'power' of the effect. 'Not taking recoveries' is not an effect that you can buy in Hero as such, you have to adjust the REC of the target of find some other way around that, and that involves a lot of complexity and some arbitrary decision making.

 

I'd like to see a more coherent approach actually presented as a build using Hero mechanics for the environmental effect 'suffocate' rather than just a set of rules.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

OK. There is a suffocate mechanic in the game. You are simply asking how we evoke that in a consistent way...no?

 

With HtH combat we have choke hold. I would be inclined to say that if a choke hold manouevre can be made on a target that the suffocation mechanic kicks in and you get an extra bit of NND on top of that (speeds up the process).

 

With powers it could be seen as more difficult - how do you do it with Entangle? Well - why not allow the choke maneouvre to be bought with powers if the SFX permits? Entangle (+ 5 point suffocate adder) allows a choke manouevre to be attempted using the power. If the attack roll hits then the victim is entangled and in a situation where they come within the suffocation mechanic.

 

I'm sure most other powers could be dealt with in a similar way. It is an environmental effect that you are trying to invoke upon someone - if the power works then the victim has to either get rid of the power or get away from its area of effect (depending on the SFX).

 

 

Doc

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Choke Hold manuevers and the Bearhug brick trick are way more efficient than the suffocation mechaninc as written in the game. People have complained about that a couple of times in other postings. I don't know if it has to be consistent across all mechanisms, but I would say that it has to make sense.

 

As a GM, when would you allow someone to kill someone with a Martial Choke? In Hero, it's built as an NND, so there's no BODY damage, but in real life you could use the rear naked choke or something similar to kill. Do you shift to suffocation rules at some point, or do you use rules similar to those for Dependence or Succeptibility damage?

 

Why is the Bearhug brick trick not built as a combination power with STUN, END and maybe BOD drain? Because it would be too expensive, or too efficient? I don't know. It's one of those builds that I don't quite get.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Choke Hold manuevers and the Bearhug brick trick are way more efficient than the suffocation mechaninc as written in the game. People have complained about that a couple of times in other postings. I don't know if it has to be consistent across all mechanisms, but I would say that it has to make sense.

 

As a GM, when would you allow someone to kill someone with a Martial Choke? In Hero, it's built as an NND, so there's no BODY damage, but in real life you could use the rear naked choke or something similar to kill. Do you shift to suffocation rules at some point, or do you use rules similar to those for Dependence or Succeptibility damage?

 

I think it should be fairly consistent. That is why I would change those manouevres to invoke the suffocation mechanism and add a bit of NND damage to speed things up...

 

So yes I would allow choking to kill someone. However, once they are unconcious I would allow someone to kill their opponent instantly.

 

 

Doc

[SteveZilla]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

I think it should be fairly consistent. That is why I would change those manouevres to invoke the suffocation mechanism and add a bit of NND damage to speed things up...

 

So yes I would allow choking to kill someone. However, once they are unconcious I would allow someone to kill their opponent instantly.

 

What if they can regenerate from death?

 

I like the idea that a Choke Hold starts the "suffocation clock" as well as causing the listed damage. The "suffocation clock" is because, well, they're being choked and cannot breath. The NND is added to this because it's not just an inability to breath, it's also something like "pinching down on the arteries that supply the brain".

 

I don't know the specifics for the Bearhug, so I can't say about it.

[Vondy]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

No, it prevents you taking recoveries and damages END as well as Stun and (eventually) Body. You can build it but it is a big, sprawling thing not completely out of proportion to the actual 'power' of the effect. 'Not taking recoveries' is not an effect that you can buy in Hero as such, you have to adjust the REC of the target of find some other way around that, and that involves a lot of complexity and some arbitrary decision making.

 

I'd like to see a more coherent approach actually presented as a build using Hero mechanics for the environmental effect 'suffocate' rather than just a set of rules.

 

Its just a 2-4d6 NND.

 

No, really.

 

1) Once you run out of Stun NNDs cause Body damage. Go look. Its nested in the rules there. So in that regard the power functions just like the suffocate mechanic.

 

2) Recovery can be barred by circumstance/FX. You can't recover while holding your breath. You can't recover in vacuum. You can't recover while in a choke hold. Why would you be able to recover when you being impacted by a power that won't let you breathe?

 

3) I disagree the END drain is actually necessary (or that the suffocation rules need to include it). You can slap it on for style if you want to, but the choke hold maneuver, which is effectively suffocating you, is just and NND.

 

So, at most, if you want to nitpick, its a 2d6 NND + 2d6 END Drain.

[Starlight]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

1) Once you run out of Stun NNDs cause Body damage. Go look. Its nested in the rules there. So in that regard the power functions just like the suffocate mechanic.

 

Could you please give a 5ER page reference for this? I thought I knew the rules pretty thoroughly but I cannot recall this at all. The NND advantage seems to specifically make the point that NND attacks only do Stun damage.

[jtelson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

How about Something like EB, NND Does Body (Only Does Body after target is at 0 Stun) Linked to a Stun/End Drain (Only to reduce Maximum Stun/End to current Value)

[AwesomusPrime]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

No, it prevents you taking recoveries and damages END as well as Stun and (eventually) Body. You can build it but it is a big, sprawling thing not completely out of proportion to the actual 'power' of the effect. 'Not taking recoveries' is not an effect that you can buy in Hero as such, you have to adjust the REC of the target of find some other way around that, and that involves a lot of complexity and some arbitrary decision making.

 

I'd like to see a more coherent approach actually presented as a build using Hero mechanics for the environmental effect 'suffocate' rather than just a set of rules.

 

I had a thought Sean. We keep talking in other threads about reasoning from effect and not mechanic or "power, perhaps this is one of those instances.

 

When lungs are filled with a non-breathable substance suffocation occurs. Why not a transform that targets the oxygen in a targets lungs and turns it to any non-breathable substance. Apply continuous and any other necessary advantages/limitations so that as soon as it's coughed up into the mouth it turns back into oxygen but as soon as oxygen is brought into the lungs it turns to this substance.

 

There are a number of limitations you can apply, like only usable on air in a target's lungs, so that you can A) save points and ensure your player doesn't go around turning a whole room's air supply into jello with the SFX of force choke.

 

Basically my thinking is as long as the transform is contained internally, you could apply any SFX and simply deny what's happening inside the lungs. You could even transform the oxygen into vacuum, although as a GM I don't know if I would want to start allowing people to transform something into nothing.

 

Although transforming a baddie into a two by four...

 

Anyway, when I drink a glass of water, it would be dubious to say I transformed it into an empty glass, but if I drank it from a distance without a trail of water going to my mouth, you could say I transformed it. I see a similar situation here, suffocation doesn't transform full lungs to empty ones per se but doing it at range w/out physical interaction could be discribed as such.

 

 

 

The biggest con here is that it's a primary effect that does not mean suffocation but has the (almost ) guaranteed side effect of suffocation. This whole thing falls apart if your target has no lungs or needn't have air to breath or just needn't breath, that kind of thing.

 

On the other hand though, if you bought all the effects of suffocation seperately, called it force choke, and force choked someone w/out lungs like a robot, it would still drown them... which doesn't make alot of sense (over come of course with a "only on organisms who breath" limitaiton).

[AwesomusPrime]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

2) Recovery can be barred by circumstance/FX. You can't recover while holding your breath. You can't recover in vacuum. You can't recover while in a choke hold. Why would you be able to recover when you being impacted by a power that won't let you breathe?

 

Aren't we giving character's a big time free ability here? Say we're fighting a baddie with massive stun/body, my endurance is better spent wailing on him with, or maybe the brick is wailing and I'm holding him.

 

I can save endurance, and metagame (my character doesn't know about the post 12 rec, he just knows ever 10-15 seconds he gets a 'second wind') to make sure that if this guy is goign to recover, he's gotta do it on his own time.

 

Very situational, I'm sure, but I think it's enough to warrant us to try and come up with a suffocation that does not rely on NND.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Could you please give a 5ER page reference for this? I thought I knew the rules pretty thoroughly but I cannot recall this at all. The NND advantage seems to specifically make the point that NND attacks only do Stun damage.

 

I'm fuzzy on that one too. I believe that you specifically have to pay a whole lot more to get an NND to do BODY damage. I'll look, but I don't know....

 

Bearhug from The Ultimate Brick is:

 

EB 6D6 NND (Self-Contained Breathing), Must follow Grab, No Range, Requires Brick Trick Roll, Side Effect (if character fails brick tricks roll, the target takes full STR damage)

 

I don't really like that build, as it ignores things like rigid armor, and seems to work too well. I still might prefer my BOD/STUN/END Drain idea, but that that my not be quite right either. Let me think about it. Any suggestions?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Choke Hold.

 

It's right there. We have the ability. There's no weird builds. If you go unconcious with Choke Hold you start to take Body Damage.

 

It's really EASY to model.

Choke Hold 4pts

+2 Damage Classes 8pts

Martial Arts Points: 12.

 

Voila.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Choke Hold.

 

It's right there. We have the ability. There's no weird builds. If you go unconcious with Choke Hold you start to take Body Damage.

 

It's really EASY to model.

Choke Hold 4pts

+2 Damage Classes 8pts

Martial Arts Points: 12.

 

Voila.

 

So the only SFX which can choke a target is Martial Arts? Spidey's webbing can't cut off a target's air supply when it covers the target's nose and mouth? The Invisible Woman and Hydro Man both have Ranged Martial Arts? A Fire/wind character who burns/blows out all the oxygen out of an enclosed space has AoE Ranged Martial Arts?

[jtelson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Choke Hold.

 

It's right there. We have the ability. There's no weird builds. If you go unconcious with Choke Hold you start to take Body Damage.

 

It's really EASY to model.

Choke Hold 4pts

+2 Damage Classes 8pts

Martial Arts Points: 12.

 

Voila.

 

Choke Hold (4 Pts) AOE Radius +1, Ranged +1/2 (10 Pts)

+2 DC's (8pts) AOE Radius +1, Ranged +1/2, Only Improves Choke Hold 0 to -1 (20-10 pts)

Ummm, Sold

[ghost-angel]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Martial Arts is a Skill Mechanic.

 

not a Special Effect

 

And given the number of flips and antics of Spidey I probably would purchase a Martial Arts Skills for him. And call it Spidey Acrobatics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Choke Hold (4 Pts) AOE Radius +1, Ranged +1/2 (10 Pts)

+2 DC's (8pts) AOE Radius +1, Ranged +1/2, Only Improves Choke Hold 0 to -1 (20-10 pts)

Ummm, Sold

 

Does that 10 points paid due to the advantage count to provide me with the de minimis point expenditure on martial arts?

 

And, once again, what if I ONLY want to invoke the drowning rules? The power passively cuts off the target's air supply - it doesn't squeeze, twist, bend, crush, fold, spindle and mutilate, so it does NO STUN DAMAGE until and unless the target runs out of END. Choke Hold does not in any way simulate this result.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Choke Hold (4 Pts) AOE Radius +1, Ranged +1/2 (10 Pts)

+2 DC's (8pts) AOE Radius +1, Ranged +1/2, Only Improves Choke Hold 0 to -1 (20-10 pts)

Ummm, Sold

 

That's not how you apply Advantages to Martial Maneuvers

 

Read Ultimate Martial Artist and get back to me.

 

Because you have done it completely 100% absolutely wrong.

[jtelson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

That's not how you apply Advantages to Martial Maneuvers

 

Read Ultimate Martial Artist and get back to me.

 

Because you have done it completely 100% absolutely wrong.

 

So we're basing our build off optional rules? Check

[ghost-angel]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

So we're basing our build off optional rules? Check

 

You started it with Advantages which generally don't go on Skills at all.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Could you please give a 5ER page reference for this? I thought I knew the rules pretty thoroughly but I cannot recall this at all. The NND advantage seems to specifically make the point that NND attacks only do Stun damage.

 

The specific rule is not under NND but rather Holding Breath and Drowning.

It is a sfx and common sense rule. The defense is relatively cheap and the grab version can be broken by a strong character.

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter Two

page 399

 

CHOKE HOLD

This maneuver allows the character to Grab an opponent’s head and neck and inflict NND damage. A Choke Hold works just like a normal Grab for purposes of determining whether the victim escapes (for example, he gets an immediate Casual STR roll to break free and take no damage). However, it only immobilizes one “limb” — the head. Besides being Grabbed, the victim of a Choke Hold takes the listed NND damage and cannot speak or shout. (The character using Choke Hold cannot also Squeeze or Throw the victim; applying the NND hold takes the place of that.) The defense against this NND is having rigid armor on the neck, a PD Force Field, or Life Support: Self-Contained Breathing. If the victim doesn’t have one of these defenses, he takes all the damage rolled. A character rendered unconscious by a Choke Hold can be killed by continued application of the Maneuver. After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious, it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it’s maintained. (See Holding Breath and Drowning, page 424.) Extra Damage Classes applied to a Choke Hold only increase the NND damage done; they cannot increase the STR of the hold.

 

from:

424 ■ Combat And Adventuring

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING

A character who holds his breath does not get to Recover, even on Post-Segment 12. He also expends a minimum of 1 END per Phase. He may lower his SPD to 2 (see page 357) to reduce the amount of END he uses.

 

A character who runs out of END while not breathing expends STUN as END (see page 425). A character who runs out of STUN then loses BODY, drowning at -1 BODY/Phase.

 

All characters drown at a minimum SPD of 2; so even a SPD 1 character must expend 2 END per Turn. (Low SPD individuals react more slowly, but they still have to breathe!)

 

from:

page 425

 

USING STUN FOR ENDURANCE

A character who runs out of END and still wishes to perform Actions may use STUN as END. The character takes 1d6 STUN Only damage for every 2 “END” (or fraction thereof) used, and no defense is allowed against this damage. Yes, characters can Knock themselves Out using this rule. Isn’t it wonderful to be heroic?

[jtelson]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

You started it with Advantages which generally don't go on Skills at all.

 

Skills purchased as powers are pretty straight forward in the core rules. I think Martial Arts is in the example.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

Sure fine.

 

If you're saying it's too cheap that's a different issue from "It's not in the book"

 

stay on topic or be more clear.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building Hero with Hero

 

So the only SFX which can choke a target is Martial Arts? Spidey's webbing can't cut off a target's air supply when it covers the target's nose and mouth? The Invisible Woman and Hydro Man both have Ranged Martial Arts? A Fire/wind character who burns/blows out all the oxygen out of an enclosed space has AoE Ranged Martial Arts?

 

If the sfx of the NND is cutting off a victim's air supply then the NND is subject to the cheapest NND defense (previously holding one's breath or not needing to breath).