Pyrokinesis

[Uthanar]

So I'm looking at a way for the sorcerer in my game who is a pyromancer to be able to manipulate Fire itself. This is different than fanning the flames (Aid Fire), or dousing the flames (Dispel and Suppress Fire), but instead allows him to control its movements.

 

Telekinesis certainly has the right feel, but the concept of STR listed in TK is a bit foreign to fire. I could see the concept of TK STR being translated over to Active Points it can effect.

 

Does it sound like I'm going about this in the right way, or am I making something overly complex when there is a simple solution waiting in my book?

 

Uthanar

 

Edit: Or would this just be a special effect of the Images power? Certainly that is another power that I want to figure out the specific application of as it applies to the character. Controlling the movement of fire seems a lot like Images requiring a fire to manipulate to me. This would limit the character to not being able to push the fire completely away from the fuel and try to put the fire out that way (not that he would, just was thinking about things like that being a Dispel/Suppress/Transfer Fire and how the TK could look like a way to accomplish that as well if not careful). So while the character could shape the flames as he would like them, he wouldn't be able to truly hinder the fires spread with Images. Am I trying to do something to "real" with the Images power?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Telekinesis; Affects Porous for a start.

 

The amount of STR can translate into Active Points of fire affected, or if the GMs wishes other aspects such as volume (torch, camp fire, hearth fire, etc) or number of Hexes of Fire (say, 5STR per Hex of Fire).

[AwesomusPrime]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Would the weight of the burning material factor into play, in this case the weight of the oxygen?

 

It seems to me that my own suggestion is largely inadequate but I thought i'd toss it out there.

 

Perhaps a large cost advantage "Effects energy" and a large value limitation "Does not effect matter" and then some kind of E=MC2 conversion... most of that last suggestion was deliberately ridiculous.

 

I'm interested to see what productive people (Like Ghost) come up with I guess is my real point.

[AwesomusPrime]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

I tried to work out a costing based on the ratio of matter to energy in the universe (on the assumption that a power normally effecting matter would be more advantageous if it effected energy by the same ratio as that of matter to energy) using e=mc2 and google calculator...

 

Evidently it would be an 8.98755179*10Exponent16 value advantage, and the best I can figure is a -4 limitation to make it fire only, being as how there are 4 main types of energy (force) in the known universe.

 

Clearly my approach is asinine. Carry on.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

...

 

Does it sound like I'm going about this in the right way, or am I making something overly complex when there is a simple solution waiting in my book?

...

 

 

Build whatever other fire based effects you want at the maximum level that the character could perform (base this on TK STR as suggested by GA) and add a Limitation to all of them something like: "Only usable at level of available existing flames". Maybe add the Physical Manifestation Limitation as well to represent someone trying to put out the source flames (like firemen for example).

[Uthanar]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Pyrokinesis: Telekinesis (4 STR), Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (32 Active Points); Requires A Pyromancy Roll (-1/2), OIF (Requires Fire Under Characters Control; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only works on Fire or Fire beings or other Fire Objects; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (performed in Primordial; -1/4), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; Side Effects occur when the character uses LTE or a STUN Drain to pay END for Bridging; -1/4)

[Notes: The Limited Power applied to Pyrokinesis is more limiting than -1/4, but instead of increasing the Limitation value to represent the limitation, it instead bought off the Limited Power associated with the Elemental Control. Basically what this means is that there isn't a problem finding a fire source if the power you are using is meant to manipulate that fire source. A limitation that isn't limiting provides no points. ]

 

...is where I ended up tonight when working with the player. A lot of those limitations are from the Elemental Control that he is working his powers out of, but you can also see the total effect that way and see if I'm dealing with it reasonably.

 

He will pick up more STR as he goes up in power, right now he can only make minor effects in the flames.

 

Uthanar

[Kdansky]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

EB 10d6, OAF Focus of opportunity (fire). Or MP or VPP if you need more than that

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

EB 10d6' date=' OAF Focus of opportunity (fire). Or MP or VPP if you need more than that [/quote']

 

That certainly works if the only end result is damage to something.

 

but the OP asked to control its movements.

[Kdansky]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

So, what Effect is that? "Move Fire" does not do much by itself. Either you burn stuff (EB/KA), or you make light/warmth (Illusion, LS), cook food (err, levels in cooking?) and then we've quickly seen it all. I'd go for a 5 point VPP

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Well, Fire is an Environmental Effect - in a Fantasy Campaign a Spell (as this request seems to be) to control Fire could move it from the hearth to the curtains.

 

Or if you're in a burning building you can move the fire aside to make a path without reducing the fire itself.

 

There's a hundred uses to move fire around that don't involve damage, heat, or cooking.

[Maccabe]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

How about CHANGE ENVIRONMENT ?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

How about:

 

Killing Attack (Fire) - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect (5" Any Area; +1), Mobile (+1), Continuous (+1) (60 Active Points); OAF (An existing fire of opportunity; -1)

[Bloodstone]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Does it sound like I'm going about this in the right way' date=' or am I making something overly complex when there is a simple solution waiting in my book?[/quote']

 

Pyrokinesis is explained in several books, including the Ultimate Energy Projector, Ultimate Mentalist, UNTIL Super Powers Database... and I'm pretty sure in one of the Fantasy Hero Grimoires.

 

It's basically TK that uses it's STR score to move Damage Classes of Energy instead of the Weight of Mater.

 

With Fine Manipulation, and appropriate skills, you can create detailed "sculptures" out of fire.

 

I personally feel the power should require Affects Porous (or an "Affects Energy" adder of equal value), but the official writeups don't do so.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Moving fire is not like moving matter IMO, and shouldn't be treated the same way no matter how much official sanction there is. As some sort of one off power trick, fine, but otherwise, I simply would not allow it, unless you could pick up whatever was on fire and move that. Fire, moved, goes out. It needs fuel.

 

You're not going to be moving fire just lot look cool (so to speak) you'll be doing it either to put out a fire (moves fire to lake) or to damage someone (moves fire to target) or possibly as some sort of signal (moves fire to sky).

 

That looks awfully like an adjustment power (possibly more than one), an attack and images, to me.

 

If there is a pool of buring oil and you can pick up the oil because you have enough TK STR and affects pourous (surely pourous means 'lets liquids through' and is another of those TK misnomers?) on your TK, fine, move the fire. What does it matter how hot the fire is, how many DCs of damage it does? Energy can't break TK. If it is a pile of wood on fire, and you have the strength to like the wood, you can move the fire, but that is just incidental.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

25 Fire Manipulation: Elemental Control, 50-point powers

17 1) Drain Fire 2d6, Ranged (+½), Area Of Effect (3" Any Area; +1) (50 Active Points), Linked (source of RKA -1/2)

18 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +¼), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (3" Any Area; +1), Selective (+¼) (52 Active Points); OIF (Fire of opportunity; -½) 5

21 3) Sight Group and Normal Touch Images Increased Size (4" radius; +½) (4" Any Area; +0), +/-4 to PER Rolls, Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (56 Active Points), OIF (Fire of opportunity -1/2)

[Bloodstone]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Moving fire is not like moving matter IMO' date=' and shouldn't be treated the same way no matter how much official sanction there is. As some sort of one off power trick, fine, but otherwise, I simply would not allow it, unless you could pick up whatever was on fire and move that. Fire, moved, goes out. It needs fuel.[/quote']

 

Well, that's great and all, but that's just not how it works in the source material

 

Pyro, from Marvel comics, does exactly what you described. He can keep a flame burning without fuel, but can't actually create the flame in the first place. And he makes all kinds of shapes and designs out of it. When he wants to burn somone with it, he just burns them with one of his flame sculptures...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Well, that's great and all, but that's just not how it works in the source material

 

Pyro, from Marvel comics, does exactly what you described. He can keep a flame burning without fuel, but can't actually create the flame in the first place. And he makes all kinds of shapes and designs out of it. When he wants to burn somone with it, he just burns them with one of his flame sculptures...

 

I agree with you that is what Pyro can do, but I disagree as to implementation.

 

Let us assume for a minute that Pyro COULD create fire. How would you build his power then? In fact he can as he carries a flamethrower around with him, but forget that. How would you build a power that lets you generate fire, and sculpt it into shapes that you can use to attack people?

 

I'm thinking you wouldn't be looking at TK. Some sort of RKA, maybe AoE selective, maybe indirect, in all likelihood, possibly continous.

 

Given that Pyro's 'fire sculptures' rarely actually DO anything in the comics other than generate a signature for his power, I'd might allow all that as sfx.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Let us assume for a minute that Pyro COULD create fire. How would you build his power then? In fact he can as he carries a flamethrower around with him' date=' but forget that. How would you build a power that lets you generate fire, and sculpt it into shapes that you can use to attack people?[/quote']

 

This is HERO. There's dozens of ways to build what you want, but Pyrokinesis doesn't just represent the power to attack people with fire.

 

Sometimes it's a Supress/Dispel to put out a fire power, sometimes it's an EB/RKA with various advantages, sometimes it's Images that make light spell or to do sky writing... and sometimes it's TK so that you can juggle fireballs, walk a house fire from one building to another or punch a fire elemental right in the face.

 

Given that Pyro's 'fire sculptures' rarely actually DO anything in the comics other than generate a signature for his power, I'd might allow all that as sfx.

 

He has used his pyrokinesis to transport fire form one location to another location.

 

So unless you want to make a Drain - RKA combo, which in my mind would get ridiculously expensive for the effect achieved, TK is what I would use to move something from one place to another.

 

YMMV

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

This is HERO. There's dozens of ways to build what you want, but Pyrokinesis doesn't just represent the power to attack people with fire.

 

Sometimes it's a Supress/Dispel to put out a fire power, sometimes it's an EB/RKA with various advantages, sometimes it's Images that make light spell or to do sky writing... and sometimes it's TK so that you can juggle fireballs, walk a house fire from one building to another or punch a fire elemental right in the face.

 

 

 

He has used his pyrokinesis to transport fire form one location to another location.

 

So unless you want to make a Drain - RKA combo, which in my mind would get ridiculously expensive for the effect achieved, TK is what I would use to move something from one place to another.

 

YMMV

 

 

That is how I'd do it, and it is not ridiculously expensive IMO at 81 points.:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1704307&postcount=15

 

I agree that you can build a given effect in all sorts of ways, but TK is just ranged strength. Sure it might let you transfer a flaming object from one point to another, but it certainly can not keep fire burning without fuel, and it cannot put fire out if you cannot shift the burning material away. You could let TK form flame sculptures if you wanted but, unless they were just sfx, you would not get the same utility as you would from flame Images.

 

Here's one for you:

 

Pyro v The Human Torch. I have no idea what actually would happen but I daresay Pyro would reasonably expect to be able to remove some or all of Torch's fire powerTK can't do that, my build can (although, for completeness sake, I might add in a Costs End missile reflection, which would probably be another 20 or so points).

 

I can see how TK is an attractive way to do this, but I really do not believe that it does what you want it to, even with an incredibly permissive approach.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

First of all, you can't Link slots of a framework to each other so it's a bit more expensive than 81 points.

 

But yes, at nearly four times the cost of the basic Pyrokinesis writeup, which has the potential to do 6 DC's of damage (and several other things), I would consider 81 points for 3 DCs (and several other things) rather ridiculously expensive.

 

The TK writeup also lets you put out fires by removing them from the fuel and choosing not to maintain the energy. This obviously doesn't work on other peoples powers though, so you should probably have a Dispel or Suppress to go with the TK build, presumably in a Multpower that will presumably still cost less than 81 pts... heck, you may have points left over to add a Succor Fire for those times when you want to fan the flames

 

Ultimately, I'm just presenting an option here that didn't make it into the main book, that has worked very well in my games and which strikes me as both logical and (mostly) balanced. Like I said, I really think TK should have an "Affects Energy" adder to do this sort of thing, and then Pyrokinesis would have a limitation that it only affects a limited type of Energy.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

First of all, you can't Link slots of a framework to each other so it's a bit more expensive than 81 points.

 

But yes, at nearly four times the cost of the basic Pyrokinesis writeup, which has the potential to do 6 DC's of damage (and several other things), I would consider 81 points for 3 DCs (and several other things) rather ridiculously expensive.

 

The TK writeup also lets you put out fires by removing them from the fuel and choosing not to maintain the energy. This obviously doesn't work on other peoples powers though, so you should probably have a Dispel or Suppress to go with the TK build, presumably in a Multpower that will presumably still cost less than 81 pts... heck, you may have points left over to add a Succor Fire for those times when you want to fan the flames

 

Ultimately, I'm just presenting an option here that didn't make it into the main book, that has worked very well in my games and which strikes me as both logical and (mostly) balanced. Like I said, I really think TK should have an "Affects Energy" adder to do this sort of thing, and then Pyrokinesis would have a limitation that it only affects a limited type of Energy.

 

You're right about the linked, but what I was trying to do was build something that HAD to be used at the same time as the RKA - the character is not just supressing fire, but moving it, so you could re-name the limtiation and get the same value.

 

Now I don't think you are after a simple 6DCs of damage, I could be wrong, but if I am I can make the whole thing cheaper anyway. You want the fire to keep burning, so you need some sort of continuous effect. You want fire sculptures, so you want some sort of AoE. The OP does not say how much damage or what advantages it should have, but does present a pyrokinesis example using TK at STR 4 and rather more limitations than I had. A pyromancy roll, incantations and side effects would substantially reduce the build cost of what I presented.

 

Now TK can cause damage, so no problems there, but to do 6d6 damage, or, presumably, to move 6d6 worth of energy, you are going to need 45 points of TK. Fine manipulation is another 10 points, so we are on 55 there. Presumably being able to move energy rather than matter is a +0 power modifier.

 

Now if it works, and you are happy, then fine, but I don't think this approach has general applicability.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Moving fire is not like moving matter IMO, and shouldn't be treated the same way no matter how much official sanction there is. As some sort of one off power trick, fine, but otherwise, I simply would not allow it, unless you could pick up whatever was on fire and move that. Fire, moved, goes out. It needs fuel.

 

You're not going to be moving fire just lot look cool (so to speak) you'll be doing it either to put out a fire (moves fire to lake) or to damage someone (moves fire to target) or possibly as some sort of signal (moves fire to sky).

 

First Paragraph: its a FANTASY SPELL. Who CARES about reality. Also, your thinking is Supers-Centric when the OP asked for a spell.

 

Second Paragraph: Why not? And I can think of half a dozen uses off the top of my head that don't involve anything you've mentioned.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

First Paragraph: its a FANTASY SPELL. Who CARES about reality. Also' date=' your thinking is Supers-Centric when the OP asked for a spell.[/quote']

 

 

It may well be a fantasy game, but the post does not say that, just that the character is a pyromancer sorcerer. The principles that apply to super powers and spells are the same in any event. I allow power tricks in fantasy games if you want to do something a bit unusual with a spell (although it is usually a spellcraft roll rather than a power roll. Same difference). As for who cares about reality - not I. I do care about the rules of the game though, and whilst it is fine to change them around to do what you want, IMO changing TK to an energy manipulation power is such a leap that you might as well come up with a scratch power.

 

 

Second Paragraph: Why not? And I can think of half a dozen uses off the top of my head that don't involve anything you've mentioned.

 

Fine, but you're not telling me that the TK option covers them are you? The framework I suggested would allow you to move fire, and shape it, in an entirely standard rules legal way, so I doubt anything Energy TK can do can't be simulated by that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Another thought - you could build a Fire Dispel with a linked summon: basically the spell gets rid of an existing fire and replaces it with an animated fire under your control, probably built like a low powered fire elemental (depending on how you build it that control may well not be perfect).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Problem with your Framework:

 

Images doesn't remove the damage caused by standing fire, so you can't use it to "push" fire out of the way and walk through a burning building.

 

Dispel either removes the fire instead of pushing it aside, or removes part of the fire in which case the environmental effect will have the remaining fire creep back into the space eventually, meaning you can't create a pocket inside an inferno to sit in.

 

I don't see why using a properly modeled TK to manipulate and move things of any nature is objectionable: what is TK at the base level but the ability to manipulate things from a distance. I find your thinking in this area uncharacteristically narrow.