Pyrokinesis

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Problem with your Framework:

 

Images doesn't remove the damage caused by standing fire, so you can't use it to "push" fire out of the way and walk through a burning building.

 

Dispel either removes the fire instead of pushing it aside, or removes part of the fire in which case the environmental effect will have the remaining fire creep back into the space eventually, meaning you can't create a pocket inside an inferno to sit in.

 

I don't see why using a properly modeled TK to manipulate and move things of any nature is objectionable: what is TK at the base level but the ability to manipulate things from a distance. I find your thinking in this area uncharacteristically narrow.

 

The drain is sort of linked to the attack - you have to use them together - so you have to move the fire somewhere (that's what Bloodstone quite properly picked me up on above). It might be better to do it as a supress field, then that would allow you to cause part of the area of flame to die down and stay died down. If you want to sit in a pocket of cool in a sea of flame though you might want to invest in some breathing equipment...

 

Thank you for the 'uncharacteristically' bit but my concern here is that what you are building is a limited attack. OK, TK is an attack power, but, well, say you are faced with a 12 DEF stone wall, and you have 30 STR TK. You don't have enough raw power to damage it and you don't have enough strength to lift it out of the way. Swap the stone wall for a wall of fire that does 12d6 damage (or 4d6 killing) - can you push that aside to pass through unscathed?

 

Using the material analogy you shouldn't be able to affect it at all.

 

I can see the attraction of Energy TK, and I actually like the idea. I just think it needs a proper definition before I'd let it in. How, for example, do you deal with advantaged powers - are they harder to move?

 

Another potential problem is making it make sense. I know that is not a Hero central theme, but the whole rationalle for using Energy TK (ETK) is that it makes sense for what you want to do - move energy from one place to another. I'm actually wondering whether it wouldn't be a neater solution to use Transfer...anyway, I digress - making sense; if you can take fire away and put it somewhere else then why is it only environmental fire? Shouldn't character created fire be just as susceptible to movement, be it an attack or the sfx of some other power?

 

That seems to go far beyond the ambit of ETK, and would require other powers to emulate anyway.

 

OK, so ETK:

 

ETK is a power that allows you to move and manipulate existing energy. Every 3 points you spend on ETK gives you 2 Energy points, and every 5 points allows you to move or manipulate 1DC of energy. Ignore advantages or limitations - it is just the basic DC we worry about. If you want to move a lot of energy over an area then you need to buy AoE, and each hex of similar energy adds 1DC to the energy you are moving (to match Physical TK rules).

 

Whilst ETK cannot block incoming attacks (buy missile deflection) you can use it to 'restrain' an energy projector. They can move physically but cannot project energy unless they break your ETK hold by rolling more Body on their attack than the Body you roll ETK 'stength'.

 

Other than that, ETK works just like physical TK so, for instance, the maximum distance you can move energy in a phase is the theoretical throwing distance matching ETK Strength against energy DCs.

 

Energy that you move only lasts as long as it would have lasted had you not touched it. You can buy a +1/2 power modifier that allows you to maintain energy (a sort of limited 'continuous' naked advantage. Sort of.)

 

You can limit it so that you only manipulate one type of energy.

 

For a +1/2 advantage you can manipulate both energy and matter, but your total TK strength is limited to (STR needed to lift mass + energy DCs).

[tesuji]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

So I'm looking at a way for the sorcerer in my game who is a pyromancer to be able to manipulate Fire itself. This is different than fanning the flames (Aid Fire), or dousing the flames (Dispel and Suppress Fire), but instead allows him to control its movements.

 

This sounds like two HERO powers to me.

 

To spread a fire, move it into an area you are causing harm to the area. i would build it as a AREA RKA with the variable area depending on how much flame, volume wise, you want to be able to "move" and then buy a lim for "needs an existing fire source to move from"

 

So to take fire from a burning car and move it south you just throw your rka starting from the car and swooshing south.

 

probably needs to be continuous but maybe not.

 

But at the same time you might need to add a suppress rka vs fire only to cover "moving" the fire off the burning car, if thats your goal.

 

Without the suppress you could take the fire from the burning car and SPREAD it south leaving the fire still burning on the car. With the suppress you could move it south AND extinguish the burning car, effectively "walking" the fire away.

 

But the net EFFECT of "moving fire" is to engulf a new area in flames and to extinguish the previous flame so it seems to be an easy case for the rka with possible suppress.

 

oh and add a lim for "only up to heat of original fire" if thats an issue for you.

[Uthanar]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Lots of interesting solutions guys. Thanks a lot for everything that has been written so far. I'm trying to digest a lot of it, and figure out what feels right. Certainly, this aspect of the characters spells (and yes it is a Fantasy Character, but I don't know that the distinction changes any of the assumptions) is more a flavor/utility aspect of his Pyromancy than the focus of it, so I'm hoping to keep point expenditure on this a bit low compared to his other powers.

 

He is working with an EC of 15, paired up with 15 point powers for a total AP of 30. Certainly this means that he is not that powerful in a lot of the effects that he is performing, but I am hoping to be able to figure a way out for him to do this.

 

Anyway, thanks for all the answers and the interesting discussion that has been going on here. It is fun to read.

 

Uthanar

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

If you want to animate a pile of junk, and were in the junkyard, how would you do it?

 

You could build something with TK, and call it SFX: animated junk.

 

You could Summon Animated Junk Being with some kind of Focus of Opportunity.

 

It seems to me that either of these approaches would fit, analogized to fire.

 

There's nothing inherent to energy vs. physical SFX that says that Telekinesis can't manipulate it. IOW, you can build an Energy Blast, SFX a giant boulder or SFX a fireball. Who's to say you can't Telekinetically manipulate energy in the same manner?

 

Thank you for the 'uncharacteristically' bit but my concern here is that what you are building is a limited attack. OK' date=' TK is an attack power, but, well, say you are faced with a 12 DEF stone wall, and you have 30 STR TK. You don't have enough raw power to damage it and you don't have enough strength to lift it out of the way. Swap the stone wall for a wall of fire that does 12d6 damage (or 4d6 killing) - can you push that aside to pass through unscathed?[/quote']

 

I think it's more analogous to a 12 DEF pile of sand. Though, I do wonder what happens when you have a 12DC fire and use 30 STR Telekinesis to move 6DC of it....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

The drain is sort of linked to the attack - you have to use them together - so you have to move the fire somewhere (that's what Bloodstone quite properly picked me up on above). It might be better to do it as a supress field, then that would allow you to cause part of the area of flame to die down and stay died down. If you want to sit in a pocket of cool in a sea of flame though you might want to invest in some breathing equipment...

 

Thank you for the 'uncharacteristically' bit but my concern here is that what you are building is a limited attack. OK, TK is an attack power, but, well, say you are faced with a 12 DEF stone wall, and you have 30 STR TK. You don't have enough raw power to damage it and you don't have enough strength to lift it out of the way. Swap the stone wall for a wall of fire that does 12d6 damage (or 4d6 killing) - can you push that aside to pass through unscathed?

 

Using the material analogy you shouldn't be able to affect it at all.

 

I can see the attraction of Energy TK, and I actually like the idea. I just think it needs a proper definition before I'd let it in. How, for example, do you deal with advantaged powers - are they harder to move?

 

Another potential problem is making it make sense. I know that is not a Hero central theme, but the whole rationalle for using Energy TK (ETK) is that it makes sense for what you want to do - move energy from one place to another. I'm actually wondering whether it wouldn't be a neater solution to use Transfer...anyway, I digress - making sense; if you can take fire away and put it somewhere else then why is it only environmental fire? Shouldn't character created fire be just as susceptible to movement, be it an attack or the sfx of some other power?

 

That seems to go far beyond the ambit of ETK, and would require other powers to emulate anyway.

 

OK, so ETK:

 

ETK is a power that allows you to move and manipulate existing energy. Every 3 points you spend on ETK gives you 2 Energy points, and every 5 points allows you to move or manipulate 1DC of energy. Ignore advantages or limitations - it is just the basic DC we worry about. If you want to move a lot of energy over an area then you need to buy AoE, and each hex of similar energy adds 1DC to the energy you are moving (to match Physical TK rules).

 

Whilst ETK cannot block incoming attacks (buy missile deflection) you can use it to 'restrain' an energy projector. They can move physically but cannot project energy unless they break your ETK hold by rolling more Body on their attack than the Body you roll ETK 'stength'.

 

Other than that, ETK works just like physical TK so, for instance, the maximum distance you can move energy in a phase is the theoretical throwing distance matching ETK Strength against energy DCs.

 

Energy that you move only lasts as long as it would have lasted had you not touched it. You can buy a +1/2 power modifier that allows you to maintain energy (a sort of limited 'continuous' naked advantage. Sort of.)

 

You can limit it so that you only manipulate one type of energy.

 

For a +1/2 advantage you can manipulate both energy and matter, but your total TK strength is limited to (STR needed to lift mass + energy DCs).

 

First, I'd stop using Material because Material is just Atoms and fire is just Atoms. TK in the rules makes a distinct difference between Solid State (the default condition) and Liquid State and Gaseous State (Affect Porous). /nit.

 

If you have a 30STR TK affecting Fire you can only manipulate 6DC of Fire.

If you encounter a Fire Wall that does 12DC of Damage you can't affect it. If the GM allows you to affect only part of it that's the GM call.

 

OR

 

He's performing a Power Tricks Roll in the opposite direction you originally stated to have it be performed: Instead of a Damage Attack used to may pretty pictures its a Pretty Pictures Power used to cause damage. . .

[tesuji]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

If you want to animate a pile of junk, and were in the junkyard, how would you do it?

 

You could build something with TK, and call it SFX: animated junk.

 

You could Summon Animated Junk Being with some kind of Focus of Opportunity.

 

It seems to me that either of these approaches would fit, analogized to fire.

 

There's nothing inherent to energy vs. physical SFX that says that Telekinesis can't manipulate it. IOW, you can build an Energy Blast, SFX a giant boulder or SFX a fireball. Who's to say you can't Telekinetically manipulate energy in the same manner?

 

 

My question is tho is isnt "moving energy" the SFX itself?

 

What happens when you "move fire" well one area which was not "in fire" now is and another spot which was "on fire" now isn't.

 

if i want to use tk to dump a whole lot of crapola on someone and pin them down, that is an ENTANGLE with various lims, analogous to the strength trick for piling on.

 

if i want to use tk to batter someone, i buy an EB. or go thru the tk punch nonsense.

 

since fire cannot "grab" or otherwise effect physically, we pretty much boil down to this being an AREA RKA, with the requirement of an existing flame to be moved and a contiguous series of hexes (depending on how far you can move) and perhaps a linked dispel or suppress fire.

 

i mean is there any other EFFECT from moving fire than moving around an area rka?

 

trying to buy this as a tk seems to me to be an attempt to get 1 dc per 5 pts area energy attacks which seems rather on the cheap side.

[Uthanar]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

I don't know if it was Tesuji's latest comments themselves or something else, but I really do have a strong belief in what he is saying now. I was thinking about it and the problems that can arise from moving fire seem to be pretty big. A lot of the effects seem like they are a long lasting RKA that requires Fire in the first place. Some of the aspects of the Pyrokinesis seem to be covered under the basic assumptions of TK, but a lot more don't seem to be dealt with appropriately.

 

Perhaps if I want to corral the flame, maybe I should be looking at Force Walls (or maybe that is too troublesome as well), if I wish to lower flames I should look at Suppress/Dispel (something that I already do use), and fanning flames would be Aid. Working together you would be able to put one section of flame out, stoke another, and protect a third area from catching on fire. Hmm...instead of Force Wall that sounds like a Suppression Field to me.

 

Well back to the drawing board on this stuff.

 

Uthanar

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

My question is tho is isnt "moving energy" the SFX itself?

 

What happens when you "move fire" well one area which was not "in fire" now is and another spot which was "on fire" now isn't.

 

if i want to use tk to dump a whole lot of crapola on someone and pin them down, that is an ENTANGLE with various lims, analogous to the strength trick for piling on.

 

if i want to use tk to batter someone, i buy an EB. or go thru the tk punch nonsense.

 

True and true, but there is also a Power called Telekinesis, when all you want to do is move a thing from point A to point B.

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

Oh, and I'd seriously question someone who bought a TK tricks Multipower who didn't have any actual TK. (The obvious implication being, what if I wanted to buy a "pyrokinesis tricks" or "telekinetic fire tricks" Multipower?)

 

since fire cannot "grab" or otherwise effect physically, we pretty much boil down to this being an AREA RKA, with the requirement of an existing flame to be moved and a contiguous series of hexes (depending on how far you can move) and perhaps a linked dispel or suppress fire.

 

There's nothing anywhere in the rules that says you can't grab fire. There's nothing mechanically about the HERO System that requires that fire be not-grabbable.

 

If I Summoned a fire elemental, made entirely of fire, would it not be possible to Telekinetically Grab it?

 

i mean is there any other EFFECT from moving fire than moving around an area rka?

 

Perhaps. Just because I can't think of one right this second doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

What if all I want to do is pick up the fire from point A and put it at point B?

 

trying to buy this as a tk seems to me to be an attempt to get 1 dc per 5 pts area energy attacks which seems rather on the cheap side.

 

You still have to buy the porous modifier (Adder?), plus Telekinesis costs 3 points per 2 STR. Maybe not enough, but also who says it has to be area energy? As I recall, in order to lift an "area" of water with Telekinesis, you have to buy Area as well as Porous.

 

And what happens if regular TK guy picks up a car? Is that a cheap attempt to get an AOE attack too?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

My question is tho is isnt "moving energy" the SFX itself?

 

What happens when you "move fire" well one area which was not "in fire" now is and another spot which was "on fire" now isn't.

 

if i want to use tk to dump a whole lot of crapola on someone and pin them down, that is an ENTANGLE with various lims, analogous to the strength trick for piling on.

 

if i want to use tk to batter someone, i buy an EB. or go thru the tk punch nonsense.

 

since fire cannot "grab" or otherwise effect physically, we pretty much boil down to this being an AREA RKA, with the requirement of an existing flame to be moved and a contiguous series of hexes (depending on how far you can move) and perhaps a linked dispel or suppress fire.

 

i mean is there any other EFFECT from moving fire than moving around an area rka?

 

trying to buy this as a tk seems to me to be an attempt to get 1 dc per 5 pts area energy attacks which seems rather on the cheap side.

 

What if, I dunno, just wanna juggle fireballs.

Pick fire up and move it around.

 

The reall issue we're running into is that Fire is also an Environmental Effect.

 

Let me ask you this: You TK a large boulder fifty feet in the air to unblock a passage so everyone can get inside. You're being chased, you all get inside and when your chasers get near you let go of the boulder. It drops onto them for much pain. You don't break it (EB, KA), you just move it.

 

All you've done is move a piece of environment up and down uses TK. The environment then takes over.

 

Or - because you haven't bought Energy Blast: Dropping Rocks you can't damage them? Isn't moving boulders around just saying you're moving Energy Blast: Rocks around then?

 

Now imagine someone lights a bonfire in front of that passage and you want to do the same thing, only this time no one is chasing you, you just move it to the side and then back. why can't you? What Mechanically In The System Says You Can't Do That?

[yes, you can use Suppress, that's merely one way to model it]

 

All of those saying TK can't, shouldn't or doesn't properly model just moving Object A (a fire) from Point A to Point B are ignoring Common Sense.

 

You ALSO run into the fact that RKA;AoE doesn't actually MOVE anything. To have it do so falls 100% into GM Fiat Land. All RKA does is DAMAGE something.

 

Your argument has more holes than swiss cheese.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Which is an interesting point...fire is an environmental effect, but why should we treat that any differently from a power? We should be able to build everything in Hero using Hero, and with fire that is relatively straightforward: fire is a KA, usually AoE, and possibly with some small cumulative component (the longer you are in fire the hotter you get and the more it hurts). Not only that, but fire doesn't necessarily go away if you put it out - the fuel can be hot enough to re-start it from stored energy. Also it can spread and it can leap and it can create smoke and remove oxygen and....

 

...lots of stuff.

 

We treat fire as a power differently from fire as an environmental effect because we can easily enough handwave fire as an environmental effect but we need to know what fire as a power does.

 

Environmental fire is going to be expensive, and, of course, you run into the problem that different people assume different environmental effects: you'll get a different definition of what fire is from someone who has had to run into a burning house from someone who'se only real fire experience is from cooking.

 

So, I think what we need is common ground. We need to build 'fire' in Hero, so we all know what we are talking about when we talk about it. It doesn't even matter if we get it 'right' so long as we nail it down.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

........................

 

All of those saying TK can't, shouldn't or doesn't properly model just moving Object A (a fire) from Point A to Point B are ignoring Common Sense.

 

..........................

 

Hero doesn't run on common sense, and that is a good thing, because if there is one thing I have learned about common sense it is that there is nothing common about it. And if there is a second thing I've learned about common sense, it is that sense is a very mutable concept.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Which is an interesting point...fire is an environmental effect, but why should we treat that any differently from a power? We should be able to build everything in Hero using Hero, and with fire that is relatively straightforward: fire is a KA, usually AoE, and possibly with some small cumulative component (the longer you are in fire the hotter you get and the more it hurts). Not only that, but fire doesn't necessarily go away if you put it out - the fuel can be hot enough to re-start it from stored energy. Also it can spread and it can leap and it can create smoke and remove oxygen and....

 

...lots of stuff.

 

We treat fire as a power differently from fire as an environmental effect because we can easily enough handwave fire as an environmental effect but we need to know what fire as a power does.

 

Environmental fire is going to be expensive, and, of course, you run into the problem that different people assume different environmental effects: you'll get a different definition of what fire is from someone who has had to run into a burning house from someone who'se only real fire experience is from cooking.

 

So, I think what we need is common ground. We need to build 'fire' in Hero, so we all know what we are talking about when we talk about it. It doesn't even matter if we get it 'right' so long as we nail it down.

 

Boulders are Environmental Effects too... but you don't say we can't lift them with TK.

 

Or cars (EB, AoE), or Sand (Entangle) . . . I could probably go on but I hope my point is being made.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Boulders are Environmental Effects too... but you don't say we can't lift them with TK.

 

Or cars (EB, AoE), or Sand (Entangle) . . . I could probably go on but I hope my point is being made.

 

 

Boulders, cars and sand are not defined environmental effects either. We can't even agree if throwing a car gives you AoE or OCV bonus, or neither, and if dropping a car on someone allows a sort of free entangle, or a sort of free STR (Mass) grab they have to escape from or neither.

 

The Hero approach is to build AoE into an EB if you want to be able to reliably get a bonus to hit and build an entangle if you want to be able to reliably pin someone down. Why should we treat Energy TK differently?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Here's real food for thought:

 

Camp Fire: 1D6 KA, Area Of Effect: 1 Hex (Active Points: 22, Real Points: 22)

[1 Damage Class = 22 Active Points]

 

Move Fire: Telekinesis, 22 STR (Active Points: 33, Real Points: 33)

[Can move 1 Damage Class of (1D6AoE:1Hex) Fire]

 

Tell me again how I'm not paying for the ability to damage? Looks like I'm paying MORE to do the same thing.

 

I invoke the Meta-Rule of Two Equal Builds One Must Take The Most Expensive.

[Uthanar]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Two disagreeing sides....both make sense....

 

::Brain lights on fire trying to figure it all out::

 

HELP! Someone Pyrokinesis the fire out of my skull!

 

Uthanar

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Two disagreeing sides....both make sense....

 

::Brain lights on fire trying to figure it all out::

 

HELP! Someone Pyrokinesis the fire out of my skull!

 

Uthanar

 

Both sides are correct - now we're just arguing semantics.

 

 

 

Choose the one that will work best for your game.

[Utech]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Just another option...

 

Summon. (Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale)

 

You'll need to talk with your GM about point costs, EGO and so on and so forth. Naturally fire can't "try" to do anything for you that real fire can't do, but your GM may well allow the fire to spread or move from place to place at your character's direction. You may enjoy the EGO Roll Versus EGO Roll Contest as a way to model your character's effort -- if no, go with Amicable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Here's real food for thought:

 

Camp Fire: 1D6 KA, Area Of Effect: 1 Hex (Active Points: 22, Real Points: 22)

[1 Damage Class = 22 Active Points]

 

Move Fire: Telekinesis, 22 STR (Active Points: 33, Real Points: 33)

[Can move 1 Damage Class of (1D6AoE:1Hex) Fire]

 

Tell me again how I'm not paying for the ability to damage? Looks like I'm paying MORE to do the same thing.

 

I invoke the Meta-Rule of Two Equal Builds One Must Take The Most Expensive.

 

Because a camp fire is not a simple AoE RKA - it would go out after one phase. I'd suggest it is this:

 

Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (52 Active Points)

 

If you are moving active points, that will cost you over 75 in TK, or you are getting all those lovely advantages for free (and if it did cost 75 points no one would want it).

 

Also whilst 22 STR TK can do 4 1/2 DCs of damage (well, 23 STR could) that would be normal damage - it would cost more to be able to do AoE when you feel like it or shift to killing damage.

[tesuji]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

 

Oh, and I'd seriously question someone who bought a TK tricks Multipower who didn't have any actual TK. (The obvious implication being, what if I wanted to buy a "pyrokinesis tricks" or "telekinetic fire tricks" Multipower?)

I would too but as a part of an overall character concept issue, much the same way i would question someone buying the brick trick pile on when he had a normal level strength.

 

none of which has anything to do with somehow trying to shoehorn TK to cover moving energy around so i get area RKAs on the cheap.

 

There's nothing anywhere in the rules that says you can't grab fire. There's nothing mechanically about the HERO System that requires that fire be not-grabbable.

Well actually i would argue that under tk it specifically says it can be used to manipulate "objects" and that means to me that, like say strength at range, it cannot be used to manipulate non-objects such as energies and sounds and the like.

 

but lets run with your standards for a moment, shall we?!?!

 

Well if thats the standard then we are SET for a whole new suite of tk powers -

 

is there anything in HERO that says that you cannot use tk to move light? to grab light?

 

NOPE!!!!

 

YIPPEE!!!

 

now i can use my tk with a good definition and not have to buy the darkness power, i jusr TK grab the light!!!

 

Also Is there anything in the hero system that says you cannot use tk to grab "life force" so maybe i can use tk to replace drains too?

 

hey there is nothing in hero system saying i cannot use tk to grab radio waves, so instead of buying darkness vs radio ...

 

and hey lets also tk grab SOUND so i dont need a darkness power to have a silence field either just TK.

 

One power to rule them all... just buy tk and then define it as grabbing whatever you want and lets avoid actually buying the other powers.

 

is there anything saying tk cannot grab "damage"....

is there anything in the hero system that says you cannot use tk to grab INTELLIGENCE?

 

me, i think i wont view "it doesn't say i cannot grab x..." as a standard myself, but hey, to each his own.

 

If I Summoned a fire elemental, made entirely of fire, would it not be possible to Telekinetically Grab it?

A creature made entirely of fire would be built as desolid, since fire itself cannot be grabbed. a physical object that is ON FIRE can be grabbed but not fire itself.

 

So, no, said elemental would be desolid, unable to be physically grabbed and thus not be able to be grabbed by tk.

 

At least, in my games. i have seen some whacky things in other people's games and so perhaps they allow you to grab fire, light, sound, etc.

Perhaps. Just because I can't think of one right this second doesn't mean there isn't one.

but just because you cannot think of one is an even WORSE reason to invent a new mechanic expanding tk fr no reason.

What if all I want to do is pick up the fire from point A and put it at point B?

thats moving an RKA from point a thru intervening spaces to point B. Some areas which used to be affected by an rka fire are now not - others that weren't now are - sounds like a joint rka area and a linked dispell to me with appropriate lims.

 

"moving fire" is the sfx for a mobile rka.

And what happens if regular TK guy picks up a car? Is that a cheap attempt to get an AOE attack too?

 

a car is a physical object and physical objects can be picked up, thrown and moved. fire is not a physical object, as opposed to an object on fire, and cannot be moved physuically any more than light or sound or other such energy forms.

[tesuji]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

 

What if, I dunno, just wanna juggle fireballs.

Pick fire up and move it around.

SFX of an rka, a very small one albeit, but just sfx.

The reall issue we're running into is that Fire is also an Environmental Effect.

Actually to me the issue is the unfathomable percieved need to expand TK beyond its capability to move OBJECTS to include ENERGIES and the VASt scope of powers it makes TK capable of once we start letting it grab light and sound and fire and so forth - other insubstntials.

 

"i grab the darkness"

 

Or - because you haven't bought Energy Blast: Dropping Rocks you can't damage them? Isn't moving boulders around just saying you're moving Energy Blast: Rocks around then?

Ok lets try this slowly...

 

strength and tk can move objects. thats an understood aspect of the system. this allows to some extent use of these to do things as you describe.

 

but strength and tk are not defined in the system as able to move non-objects - they cannot move energy, they cannot move light, they cannot move sound, they cannot move radio waves, etc.

 

i cannot use my strength or my tk to grab light and create a darkness field or to grab sound and create a silence field or to grab electricity and create a lightning bolt... to somehow suddenly decide we need to reinvent this new scope for tk and strength to allow them to move these things so broadens their scope as to be a very bad idea - tm.

 

 

Now imagine someone lights a bonfire in front of that passage and you want to do the same thing, only this time no one is chasing you, you just move it to the side and then back. why can't you? What Mechanically In The System Says You Can't Do That?

[yes, you can use Suppress, that's merely one way to model it]

NOTE moving a bonfire is something that COULD be accomplished by tk, as you pick up and move te burning stuff, the burning objects, just like picking up a lit torch.

 

moving fire is another issue.

All of those saying TK can't, shouldn't or doesn't properly model just moving Object A (a fire) from Point A to Point B are ignoring Common Sense.

Except for the fact that tk is defined now as, like strength, affecting objets and while allowing strength and tk to affect objects is one thing, expanding them to affect "without buying other powers" other forms like energy, sound, fire light suddenly vastly expands the scope of those two powers.

 

I wouldn't let my brixck players grab "light" just because there is no hero rule in print saying "you cannot grab light."

 

Answer me this - if a character had "light manipulation" and this was defined as allowing him to move light from one area to another - would you let him buy tk to move all the light from one room to another or would you require him to buy some form of darkness/images?

 

 

 

You ALSO run into the fact that RKA;AoE doesn't actually MOVE anything. To have it do so falls 100% into GM Fiat Land. All RKA does is DAMAGE something.

When did sfx become gm fiat?

 

how many RKAs have been defined as "throwing stars? or arroows? or heck what about bullets?

 

those are all moving things and we dont need any sort of gm fiat to define those as rka.

 

same with moving fire.

 

again if someone can define an EFFECT this tk is supposed to enable that isn't just shifting the area affected by an rka that isn't just sfx, then we can start looking for other ways to model it.

 

but until then either we keep tk restricted to things physically affectable - objects - or we start whipping up the "grab the light" expansion book called "HERO SYSTEm The ultimate Telikinetic toolkit"

 

Your argument has more holes than swiss cheese.

 

"I grab the light with my tk..." seems a bigger whole lot of mess to me than simply understanding the common sense aspect that "object" has meaning and significance.

 

Hmmm... does it say anywhere that tk cannot grab some love? :-)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Here's real food for thought:

 

Camp Fire: 1D6 KA, Area Of Effect: 1 Hex (Active Points: 22, Real Points: 22)

[1 Damage Class = 22 Active Points]

 

Move Fire: Telekinesis, 22 STR (Active Points: 33, Real Points: 33)

[Can move 1 Damage Class of (1D6AoE:1Hex) Fire]

 

Tell me again how I'm not paying for the ability to damage? Looks like I'm paying MORE to do the same thing.

 

I invoke the Meta-Rule of Two Equal Builds One Must Take The Most Expensive.

 

I suppose the other argument is that you are putting the fire somewhere else which means you are taking the fire away from where it was originally. As it won't go back when you stop, it can't be a supress, and if you can move only part of it it cannot be a dispel either, so you would have to build it as a drain. To drain 22 points of a power using standard effect would be over 7 dice, or 70 points. Not bad for 33 points of TK...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

I suppose the other argument is that you are putting the fire somewhere else which means you are taking the fire away from where it was originally. As it won't go back when you stop' date=' it can't be a supress, and if you can move only part of it it cannot be a dispel either, so you would have to build it as a drain. To drain 22 points of a power using standard effect would be over 7 dice, or 70 points. Not bad for 33 points of TK...[/quote']

 

Who needs TK for anything?

 

Move Object: 6d6 Transform, Object to Nothing, plus 6d6 Transform, Thin Air to Object.

 

How'm I doing?

[Utech]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

I still think Summon is the way to go.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

I think that the argument that using TK to move fire leads to problems like using it to move light to get a cheap “darkness” effect is faulty. If you did modify TK to grab light and then grabbed all the light in a room and moved it the room would not become dark, because the source of the light (light bulb, sun light through the window, etcetera) would still be producing/providing light to the room and would replenish the “grabbed” light almost instantly. Furthermore, unless the “grab light TK power” had some kind of continuous effect you would have to spend endurance each of your phases to “carry” this room’s worth of light around, and what could you do with it other than an image effect (lighting an area) or maybe a flash attack? As soon as you stopped spending the End the light would dissipate like normal. I’m not saying that this would be the best way to do something like that; I’m just saying that the argument against it isn’t really valid and has little to do, IMO, with the TK for fire argument. The main difference between light and fire would be whether or not the fuel would still burn, or possible re-combust because of how hot it is, after you removed the fire. Also, if the pyromancer stopped controlling the fire while, for example, holding it in the air, it would simply dissipate for lack of a fuel source, but only after his magical/super-powered/whatever control was released; this would make it less effecting than being able to drop an object on someone, yet the environmental effect that would occur if it was introduced to a new fuel source would more than make up for that small limitation. Again, I’m not saying that this is the best way to make this power; I’m just playing the devil’s advocate and addressing some of the arguments against it. That’s this newbs opinion anyway.

[rauer]

Re: Pyrokinesis

 

Uthanar -

 

This specific power (pyrokinesis) is detailed in the USPD (revised), page 92. The sidebar on that page, titled "Telekinesis and Energy", provides more info as well. I am not sure if the printed information there will answer every question in this thread, but it certainly explains this use of TK in a more detailed manner than the explanation for TK in the main rulebook.

 

Hope that helps, sir!