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5 Point Doubling?!?


Cannon_Fodder
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Re: 5 Point Doubling?!?

 

Not sure exactly what you're asking about, but...

 

If you're asking about the general concept that 5 points doubles an effect, it's just a metarule that's gathered from two facts:

 

1. The amount of STR you can lift doubles with each 5 points spent.

2. 2x mass gives you +1 BODY (as seen in the Growth power). Therefore each extra BODY added to an attack (such as you would get on average from +1d6 of Energy Blast, which costs 5 points) theoretically makes the attack twice as powerful (because it can destroy the BODY equivalent of twice as much mass).

 

This metarule is not spelled out in the rulebook anywhere that I'm aware of, nor is it universally agreed on by HERO players. Some think it's a valid analysis, some don't.

 

However, if you're talking about the optional rule that you can double equipment for +5 points (such as having a second exact copy of a gun when you've already paid full cost for the first gun), that rule is on page 456 of HERO System 5th Edition Revised. (Or page 309 of HERO System 5th Edition.)

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Re: 5 Point Doubling?!?

 

 

1. The amount of STR you can lift doubles with each 5 points spent.

2. 2x mass gives you +1 BODY (as seen in the Growth power). Therefore each extra BODY added to an attack (such as you would get on average from +1d6 of Energy Blast, which costs 5 points) theoretically makes the attack twice as powerful (because it can destroy the BODY equivalent of twice as much mass).

[/i])

 

It also doubles non-combat movement, foci, multiforms, summoned lackeys, followers, and some other places.

 

At the same time, the "metarule" is not consistent throughout the system - other exponents have different costs, and some things seem to favor a more linear progression. If it is a metarule - and I don't dispute that exponents are a major part of the system - its a wonky and unwieldy one.

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Re: 5 Point Doubling?!?

 

5ER p456

 

5-Point Doubling Rule has it's own subheader - left column half way down.

 

Assuming you're referring to the "I can buy double the equipment for 5 points" rule which is the most often cited "5 Point Doubling Rule" mentioned. Usually under the context of "broken."

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Re: 5 Point Doubling?!?

 

The STR doubling also implies other doublings.

 

If +5 STR is twice as strong, and grants +1 DC of damage, one interpretation is that +1 DC is twice as much damage. If +1 DC is twice as much damage, then +1 rPD is twice as much defense, and +1 BODY is twice as much soaking capacity.

 

Twice as much STR arguably uses twice as much END. If +1 END is generally 2x power, then +5 AP is generally 2x power.

 

Alternately, since twice as much STR grants +1 to your "STR roll", does that mean that "+1 to a roll" means twice the ability?

 

Anyway it's a matter of how you interpret and extrapolate STR. Of course if you do this long enough you'll probably run into things that don't match up as the system is not fully consistent in this regard. (One of the few changes I'd like to see in 6th edition would be the "+5 doubling" effect adopted and applied consistently throughout the system. That's the only thing IMO that would make 6E an evolutionary must-have.)

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Re: 5 Point Doubling?!?

 

If +5 STR is twice as strong' date=' and grants +1 DC of damage, one interpretation is that +1 DC is twice as much damage. If +1 DC is twice as much damage, then +1 rPD is twice as much defense, and +1 BODY is twice as much soaking capacity.[/quote']

 

Carried through, if the first hit did one BOD and the next should do exactly as much BOD, you should be dropped to 0 as each added BOD was equal to the sum of all that went before it.

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Re: 5 Point Doubling?!?

 

Carried through' date=' if the first hit did one BOD and the next should do exactly as much BOD, you should be dropped to 0 as each added BOD was equal to the sum of all that went before it.[/quote']

That is true, although it is due to the linear nature of hit point mechanics. There are two solutions, either use "geometric arithmetic" in calculating damage or switch to a wound system instead of hit points. That's a pretty drastic change though.

 

(I found a solution to "geometric arithmetic" that works in Fudge, but I'm not sure it could be applied to Hero. Fudge also doesn't have hit point issues.)

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Re: 5 Point Doubling?!?

 

That is true, although it is due to the linear nature of hit point mechanics. There are two solutions, either use "geometric arithmetic" in calculating damage or switch to a wound system instead of hit points. That's a pretty drastic change though.

 

(I found a solution to "geometric arithmetic" that works in Fudge, but I'm not sure it could be applied to Hero. Fudge also doesn't have hit point issues.)

 

I'm not in favour of any change, and I'm also OK with "+5 points is two times as much" as a general eyeball approach of assessing "how strong/agile/hardy/smart is this character".

 

How strong is "with the strength of ten ordinary men"? Well if an ordinary man is STR 10, that's around 26 or 27 assuming every +5 doubles. If it's a straight liner function, that's 100 STR. Which scale is practical? The so-called logarithmic scale allows for much wider variance with numbers that fit on the character sheet.

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Re: 5 Point Doubling?!?

 

I usually use a +5 Points = 1 Step.

 

That step can be a Damage Class, x2 Lift Capacity, x2 Quantity. . .

 

and even then it's not a hard and fast rule, just a rough guidelines to help me think things out a little bit.

 

For example I very frequently step Defenses in groups of +6 to gauge just how tough I want a character to be - how many full Damage Classes they can completely ignore; usually the STUN from Normal Attacks or the BODY from Killing Attacks. so +6DEF is either against 1DC or 3DC depending on what I'm working towards.

 

Ultimately - the system is playable and can allow for predictability if needed. Which beats the heck out of needing to adhere to some steadfast measuring stick that applies across the board - after all the Shotgun Approach To Corporate Management (everyone gets equal treatment and blasted likewise) doesn't work anywhere.

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