Mind Control and Mental Illusions

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

Personally, I've never seen the point to "creating" a flashlight via Powers, etc. Even in a superheroic campaign, where characters are supposed to buy everything with points, it's pretty silly to make PowerArmorGuy buy the spotlight on his tin zoot suit.

 

If he wants to "dial it up" bright enough for a Flash, fine, buy Flash. But for making the room/road/?? lit enough he can see, bah.

 

If I follow your line of reasoning then any super with any kind of armor/tech based power would get a free perception bonus in the dark. Common sense dictates that this is not only unfair (unless EVERY character in the game gets bonuses against negative perception rolls) but would almost negate the use of time of day in game play for any reason other than storytelling/atmosphere. You have to spend points on night-vision; I would think a flashlight, which could provide light for an entire group, may be worth almost more if frequently used in a group setting. I really don’t see how that is “silly” unless your campaign setting allows all supers to see in the dark, or emit some kind of light from their bodies, for free. Furthermore, if the “tin zoot suit” is like Ironman’s, then the light is always on and you can recover some of those points with a disadvantage making yourself more noticeable in the dark. It’s all very logical, and works fairly well with the mechanics of the game in general. Did you have any reason for it being “silly”? Other than “bah” I mean…

You could certainly apply a Limitation to make it only visible to one target at a time.

In the description of Images in 5er, it states that all characters within line of sight perceive an image, (presumably this would be range of detection if making a “sound image”?), so I’m just wondering what Limitation could be added to make it only applicable to one person? If you are using the Sight sense group for an Image, what Limitation could possibly make only one person see it? Especially since Images targets an area at DCV3, like an AoE, not individuals. I guess my understanding of the power is that you produce something that is actually there, even if it isn’t actually real. Maybe I’m just not thinking out side of the box enough, but it seems that MI would be the way to go if you wanted the ability to make individuals see things without anyone around them doing so. Maybe I’m way off base here?

 

Also, I have to correct myself, now that I have my book with me. Image is considered an Attack Power, as well as a Standard Power and Sense-Affecting Power, so I misspoke in my last post.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

In the description of Images in 5er' date=' it states that all characters within line of sight perceive an image, (presumably this would be range of detection if making a “sound image”?), so I’m just wondering what Limitation could be added to make it only applicable to one person? If you are using the Sight sense group for an Image, what Limitation could possibly make only one person see it?[/quote']

 

-X: Only Perceptible To One Target At A Time.

 

I suggest X be 1/2 to 1.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

-X: Only Perceptible To One Target At A Time.

 

I suggest X be 1/2 to 1.

 

Is there a visible effect for everyone else to see?

What happens when the "attack roll" misses?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

Okay, a custom modifier. That makes sense. But is it really a Limitation? What if you only want to let one person at a time see something? Now it's an Advantage (or at least a wash point wise). I would think it would be a Limitation -0, at most, to ONLY be usable on one person at a time, and an Advantage to use the power either way. Plus, since Images targets an area's DCV 3, shouldn't you have to pay for AoE 1 Hex Accurate like you would for any other AoE power that can only attack a single person in? Maybe not, since it could be a big AoE but only visible to one person, but it just doesn't sit well with me. Just wondering aloud.

 

I'm also having trouble coming up with a scenario that would call for Image only visible by one person. If it's not affecting the person mentally (which would put in the Mental Powers) then how is it only visible to only one person? Does it have invisibility to everyone but the target? Also, since Image is an exception to the “must be visible by 3 senses rule” because the use of the power only has to be visible by the sense(s) it is effecting, yet still clearly come from you, can anyone other than the one person it is being used on tell that you are using the power? This may seem more like a question of SFX, but personally IMHO I think it's stretching what Images is supposed to do and how it's described. I'm not saying it can't or even shouldn't be done, I'm just saying that I can't think of a character concept where that build would make more sense than a MI. In fact, I think that by the time you figured out all the modifiers necessary it may be cheaper, (or at least easier), to modify MI into what you want…

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

By the time I finished writing my long-arsed response, Hyper-Man cut right to the chase and asked the key question that bothered me...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

Is there a visible effect for everyone else to see?

 

Presumably there would be a "Visible Power Effect" as per the Advantages and Limitations that affect such, and you'd have to buy this down.

 

What happens when the "attack roll" misses?

 

The target doesn't perceive the Images.

[nexus]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

Okay' date=' a custom modifier. That makes sense. But is it really a Limitation? What if you only [b']want[/b] to let one person at a time see something?

 

Probably a limitation. The big advantage (little a) of Images is that they are immediately perceivable to an unlimited number of targets. If they have the proper senses and can perceive the target hex (even via unusual means) they can perceive the image. That limitation removes that utility and also potentially makes the illusions easier to pierce. There's no compulsion to believe an Image and when only one person sees it and others can point out it's not actually there it could be a drawback.

 

There are some advantageous situations particularly for a creative person so I wouldn't come much higher that -1/2 as a limitation generally.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

Maybe the title of this thread should be renamed Mind Control, Mental Illusions and Images?

 

I believe Mental Illusions is the best mechanic for causing a single target to perceive a false reality.

 

Single target means that the ability is not sensory. It is affecting an individual via their mind (EGO) or other part of their body (CON).

 

Try to forget for a moment that the word "Mental" is part of the name of the power. An ability built with this power doesn't need to be based off ECV. It can use the Based on CON Limitation to fit any "non mental power" sfx.

 

from page 120 ■ Character Creation: Powers Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

Based On CON (-1): You can use the HERO System’s Mental Powers to create some drugs or other physical effects. To simulate this, characters can buy a Mental Power to affect targets through their CON instead of their EGO. A Power with this Limitation becomes a normal attack with a range of 5” x Active Points, is targeted with CV instead of ECV (unless the GM allows the character to choose otherwise), is perceivable by three Sense Groups, is subject to the Range Modifier, and requires an Attack Roll to hit its target. The target’s Energy Defense or Physical Defense, not Mental Defense, applies against the attack (the character defines which Characteristic applies when he buys the power, and cannot change it thereafter). Compare the Effect Roll to the target’s CON (substitute CON for EGO on the Effects Table of the Mental Power). A Mental Power Based On CON lasts until the target shrugs off its effects, which requires a successful CON-based Breakout Roll made with the standard modifiers (if applicable).

 

When sufficiently affected by a Mental Power Based on CON, a character responds to the first person to give commands: for Telepathy, he answers the first question asked; if Mind Controlled, he obeys the first order given him; for Mental Illusions, he responds to the first illusion described to him. Of course, the attacker isn’t always the first person to give a command....

 

Powers with this Limitation are automatically perceivable, just like normal attacks. Buying a Mental Power with this Limitation does not enable a character to detect Mental Powers (i.e., it does not grant Mental Awareness for free).

 

Some Mental Powers, like Mind Scan, do not work well based on CON, but several others create interesting dynamics. A good way to build a truth serum or other “mind drug” would be the appropriate Mental Power, Based On CON, NND (defense is Resistant PD), No Range, OAF Fragile. This creates a drug that has to be injected and lasts until the victim overcomes its effects.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

I believe Mental Illusions is the best mechanic for causing a single target to perceive a false reality.

 

Single target means that the ability is not sensory. It is affecting an individual via their mind (EGO) or other part of their body (CON).

 

Try to forget for a moment that the word "Mental" is part of the name of the power. An ability built with this power doesn't need to be based off ECV. It can use the Based on CON Limitation to fit any "non mental power" sfx.

 

It may be time to remove the phrase "Mental Power" from the Hero System lexicon.

 

We can have Powers that target ECV; we can have Powers resisted by Mental Defense; we can have Powers that have any kind of effect you can think of. But the whole "Mental Power / not a Mental Power" dichotomy is the worst offender of applying SFX to a mechanical construct.

 

Crossposted between "Mind Control and Mental Illusions" in HERO System Discussion and "Mental Powers, Senses, and Presence Attacks" in the 6e forum.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mind Control and Mental Illusions

 

Single target means that the ability is not sensory. It is affecting an individual via their mind (EGO) or other part of their body (CON).

 

Why? How it affects the target is SFX. Single Target is mechanics. How it's targeted (OCV vs. DCV, OECV vs. DECV, something else) is mechanics. How it's counted (EGO vs. CON, PER penalties) is mechanics.