Mind Scan confusion

[Tech]

There is some confusion in our group about what Mind Scan does and does not allow. We only have 5th edition so please don't reference a page on 5th edition revised. Here is some of the thoughts that has brought confusion:

 

It's been assumed by some of our players that Mind Scan should by default work only on human minds or intelligent non-humans. To my knowledge, Mind Scan works on all minds, including animals, aliens with minds, etc. and think it should work on any mind.

1st question: does Mind Scan have to sort through animal minds as well as human?

 

I see some assumptions which, IMHO, lead to a sort of 'free mind checking' not granted by Mind Scan: if it only picks up human minds, there's some sort of assumption that if someone Mind Scans an area where someone is shapeshifted into a non-human shape (ex. shapechanged into a pig) that it will automatically alert the mentalist that the pig is something other than a pig.

2nd question: will Mind Scan alert the mentalist in a case like this?

 

3rd question: If it does, isn't this in effect a minor version of Danger Sense, Telepathy or something similar in that the shapechanger has been automatically identified as something other than what the shapechanger seems?

 

I do not believe Mind Scan allows this. The power is stated 'A character with this Mental Power can mentally search an area to find another mind'. The power states you are looking for a mind which would have to be a specific mind. It does state that Mind Scan can be used to determine the number of sentient minds in an area but I do not believe this grants the mentalist an automatic knowledge of what those minds are like, whether animal, robot, alien or human, just that they are sentient. There is no free analysis here. Mind Scan like this should be bought additionally as the Enhanced Sense 'Detect' power with Discriminatory;Analyze.

 

4th question: can you Mind Scan for a general mind? In other words, can a mentalist say they are scanning a group for a particular animal mind, such as a pig mind? If so....

 

5th question: wouldn't the above allow you to search a group for any mind that isn't alien in nature? Again, this seems like it should be bought with the Detect with Analyze power.

 

Those are my questions for now. Please help with clarification on this.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

1. The default Mind Scan works only on human minds

2. Most likely not

3. See my above answer

4. As far as I know, you an not do this. It might be different if the mentalist bought Mind Scan “usable on Animal class of minds”

5. If you are searching for “animal minds” you would not detect other classes of minds, such as human, so it’s a moot point.

 

***Edit to answer 5: If you line up six people, one of whom has a non-human class of mind and the mentalist scans each of them they may very well be able to figure out that one has a non-human mind based on their inablility to scan it. However it could be that the person being scanned simply has high mental defenses so it does have enough uncertainly built in so that it isn’t a game breaker by any streatch. In fact, that would be a creative use of a power that, as long as it wasn’t abused, would be well within genre in many campaigns.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

my 5e is loaned out right now.

 

but according to:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One POWERS

page 117

 

(5er p. 117 => 5e p. 78-79 per the link in my sig below)

 

CLASSES OF MINDS

At their base level, all Mental Powers (including Ego Attack) affect only one class of minds. The basic classes include Human, Animal, Machine, and Alien; the GM can add other classes or alter these as he sees fit. A character’s Mental Powers operate against other minds like his as a default; for example, unless specified otherwise, a human’s Mental Powers work on Human minds, not on Animal minds or Machine minds. When a character purchases Mental Powers, he may specify that they work against a different class of minds.

[BarretWallace]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

There is some confusion in our group about what Mind Scan does and does not allow. We only have 5th edition so please don't reference a page on 5th edition revised. Here is some of the thoughts that has brought confusion:

 

It's been assumed by some of our players that Mind Scan should by default work only on human minds or intelligent non-humans. To my knowledge, Mind Scan works on all minds, including animals, aliens with minds, etc. and think it should work on any mind.

1st question: does Mind Scan have to sort through animal minds as well as human?

 

I see some assumptions which, IMHO, lead to a sort of 'free mind checking' not granted by Mind Scan: if it only picks up human minds, there's some sort of assumption that if someone Mind Scans an area where someone is shapeshifted into a non-human shape (ex. shapechanged into a pig) that it will automatically alert the mentalist that the pig is something other than a pig.

2nd question: will Mind Scan alert the mentalist in a case like this?

 

3rd question: If it does, isn't this in effect a minor version of Danger Sense, Telepathy or something similar in that the shapechanger has been automatically identified as something other than what the shapechanger seems?

 

I do not believe Mind Scan allows this. The power is stated 'A character with this Mental Power can mentally search an area to find another mind'. The power states you are looking for a mind which would have to be a specific mind. It does state that Mind Scan can be used to determine the number of sentient minds in an area but I do not believe this grants the mentalist an automatic knowledge of what those minds are like, whether animal, robot, alien or human, just that they are sentient. There is no free analysis here. Mind Scan like this should be bought additionally as the Enhanced Sense 'Detect' power with Discriminatory;Analyze.

 

4th question: can you Mind Scan for a general mind? In other words, can a mentalist say they are scanning a group for a particular animal mind, such as a pig mind? If so....

 

5th question: wouldn't the above allow you to search a group for any mind that isn't alien in nature? Again, this seems like it should be bought with the Detect with Analyze power.

 

-Based on my relatively limited knowledge of building Hero Powers but a decent working knowledge of the system, I think you can make the power as general or as specific, as powerful or as weak, as you want. To use an example from the old West End Star Wars RPG, a novice Jedi character (i.e. one with a low Sense skill) might say "I have a bad feeling about this". An experienced Jedi, one who has honed his sensory abilities (put more points into his Sense skill), might examine the same situation through the Force and say "there are four squads of stormtroopers waiting behind secret walls in the next room".

 

-If you are just looking for a "Spidey Sense" to tell you that there are other minds in the room, then it seems to me that this version of Mind Scan should be cheap in terms of points. If you want it to distinguish between different types of minds, then require the use of appropriate Enhancements or Advantages (Detect with Analyze being a very reasonable one). The same goes for being able to find a specific mind in a crowd.

 

-Well, those are my two cents.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Fifth Edition p79 is the location the relative text quoted above. It is the same in both books.

 

All Mental Powers only work on one class of mind, if you are using that rule that's the default assumed.

 

RE: The shapeshifted pig/animal - yes, unless there is something about the Pig's build (Like Shape Shift: Mental Group) that would disguise it's mind's nature, then the Mentalist can determine that the pig is not a pig. (everyone gets what they pay for, the Shapeshift didn't alter their "mental appearance" and the mentalist bought the ability to see human class minds.)

 

As for seeing Mind Scan - anyone who can detect the use of Mental Powers will see Mind Scan being used, especially if it's used in broad applications like determining the number of minds in an area. Or they are looking.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Without wishing to seem contrary, I would say that mind scan works on all minds, including animals UNLESS you are using the 'class of mind' rules, or some other house rule to limit that.

 

Whilst you might be able to (if you are using CoM rules) tell that an animal in the with you registers as a human mind, and so over some some aspects of shapeshift, that wouldn't bother me - bear in mind MS doesn't work well as any kind of danger sense - it requires an attack roll and so would end your phase if used.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Without wishing to seem contrary' date=' I would say that mind scan works on all minds, including animals UNLESS you are using the 'class of mind' rules, or some [b']other[/b] house rule to limit that. (emphasis added)

1. The Class of Mind rules are standard rules, not house rules.

 

2. As cited above, the rulebook clearly states that all Mental Powers work on a single class of mind. Mind Scan is a Mental Power. So I don't see where you're getting that Mind Scan works on all classes of minds.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

1. The Class of Mind rules are standard rules, not house rules.

 

2. As cited above, the rulebook clearly states that all Mental Powers work on a single class of mind. Mind Scan is a Mental Power. So I don't see where you're getting that Mind Scan works on all classes of minds.

 

Whilst you are right, those paticular rules are rubbish and so I feel perfectly justified in classifying them as house rules, so long as decent, hard working house rules are not going to get offended by that.

 

Being anything other than an optional/house/campaign rule makes them fundamentally incompatible with metarule 7: this is clearly an imposition of specificity* where it is neither wanted nor needed in most games. And I always see metarule 7 as the most important guiding principle in Hero, whenever it suits me to do so.

 

 

 

*as opposed to genericalistimication

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Whilst you are right' date=' those particular rules are rubbish and so [u']I feel perfectly justified in classifying[/u] them as house rules, so long as decent, hard working house rules are not going to get offended by that.

 

Your interpretation is a house rule.

No way around it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Your interpretation is a house rule.

No way around it.

 

You're forgetting metarule 8

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

You're forgetting metarule 8

 

No I'm not.

 

You are changing a rule in your game.

Ignoring a rule is changing a rule.

Therefore you are making a house rule.

 

8. There are few, if any, rules you can’t change in the HERO System.

 

House Rule

 

–noun

a rule that is used in a game only in a specific place, as a particular casino, or only among a certain group of players.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

...so, if the official rule is that you can change the rules then any rule change is official, and there is no such thing as a house rule, other than as a convenient shorthand for something you would not find in the main rulebook. The Class of Mind Rules, of course, are something you should not find in the main rule book.

 

In any event, the point I was making was that, unless you are using the CoM rules, or a house rule of similar effect, Mind Scan works on any mind.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

...so' date=' if the official rule is that you can change the rules then any rule change is official, and there is no such thing as a house rule, other than as a convenient shorthand for something you would not find in the main rulebook. The Class of Mind Rules, of course, are something you [i']should[/i] not find in the main rule book.

 

In any event, the point I was making was that, unless you are using the CoM rules, or a house rule of similar effect, Mind Scan works on any mind.

 

 

Sean,

 

I am not arguing the point that the rules can be changed.

In fact I think it is a wonderful feature of the system that it is designed with this in mind.

 

However, I think it is needlessly confusing to potential new players to have a fuzzy label between 'default' and everything else (which includes 'optional' and 'house rules').

 

If I used your argument then I could say I'm running a Champions game and have 5er sitting on the table at a game but actually be using GURPS mechanics. "Metarule 8!"

 

You are outdoing yourself in the 'not making any sense' category this month.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Sean,

 

.................

 

You are outdoing yourself in the 'not making any sense' category this month.

 

 

I think it is important that I constantly strive to set the bar higher

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

...so' date=' if the official rule is that you can change the rules then any rule change is official, and there is no such thing as a house rule, other than as a convenient shorthand for something you would not find in the main rulebook. The Class of Mind Rules, of course, are something you [i']should[/i] not find in the main rule book.

 

In any event, the point I was making was that, unless you are using the CoM rules, or a house rule of similar effect, Mind Scan works on any mind.

 

I think you'd do yourself a favor if you deviated from the book instead of deciding the book deviated from you.

 

Thusly:

If you aren't using the Class Of Minds Rules (for whatever reason) then Mind Scan works on any mind.

If you are using the Rules As Written, Mind Scan works on one class of mind.

 

It's only relevant to point out how you deviate from the rules if you say you're deviating. I don't really care how you feel - everyone has access to the book, not every has access to Sean Waters Version Of How He Plays.

 

It really does cause problems when you make statements that indicate the rules aren't doing what you feel is right and phrasing it in such a way as to make the book look incorrect.

 

Metarules are only useful if you point out you're using them. Many people don't. And you'll have an easier time discussing things on the boards. Especially since you seem to be hellbent on trying to literally inperpret the rules most of the time and willfully ignoring them the other half. I'm tired of guessing as to which you're doing in any given thread.

 

CoM is not a House Rule. Not using CoM is.

[Wolfgar]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

I greatly enjoy the Class of Minds rule. That's it. Carry on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Before 5th edition we did not have Class of Mind rules, and didn't need them. They make very little sense to me because they state, in effect, 'here is an sfx based limitation on your powers BUT we want you to treat all PCs as human class of mind, even if they are not, by creation definition. In fact, let's go one better and actively penalise creative design by saying if you're an android who functions as a PC you probably are affected by both human and machine class powers'.

 

Now that's not a direct quote, you understand, but it is accurate, nonetheless, having actually looked at the book this time.

 

They don't add anything useful to the game (you can't define your powers as machine class and have your mind control change channel on the TV - that is very much NOT what it says, unless it also implies we need to build TVs with INT), and they force ill defined sfx on the game: why are all aliens identical in mind?

 

Now I post a lot from work, because I work for myself, and I can, but I don't have the book there and I genuinely thought that CoM was an optional rule (not a house rule, I've always known it is in the book, I shouldn't have types 'other'. Mea culpa) not the base state of mental powers, but finding out I'm wrong on that, well - I think you can divine my attitude to this particular rule, and I find that it being a core part of the system is astonishing.

 

I like the idea of meta rules, and I like the idea of a system that is as coherent as it can be without sacrificing gameplay. I would very much like to see discussion about the reasons behind decisions made in Hero, but I know we are not getting that, and, until we do, I don't feel even slightly guilty opining that a rule is simply wrong, even though, I know the argument that if it is a rule it can't, by definition be wrong. I think it is because all I've got to guess at the deep structures that underlie what we see on the surface IS what we see on the surface and how that interacts with other parts of the system. Hell, if I knew WHY some of the decisions were taken, I might well accept that is the best way to do it.

 

For the record I also like the idea of optional rules, but I think the core system should be as clean and unencumbered with unnecessay baggage as can be.

 

Also, if Tech has read what I have to say and gone away with a serious misconception he didn't want, I'm truly sorry, but I saw the title of the thread and thought it was a request.

[Wolfgar]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Before 5th edition we did not have Class of Mind rules, and didn't need them. They make very little sense to me because they state, in effect, 'here is an sfx based limitation on your powers BUT we want you to treat all PCs as human class of mind, even if they are not, by creation definition. In fact, let's go one better and actively penalise creative design by saying if you're an android who functions as a PC you probably are affected by both human and machine class powers'.

 

Where does it say PCs have to be Human minds? The default is human, but I don't see where it's required.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Where does it say PCs have to be Human minds? The default is human' date=' but I don't see where it's required.[/quote']

 

It doesn't.

 

But if one PC has an 'alien' mind and and another PC has Mind Link that only affects 'human' minds he won't be able to connect to the 'alien'.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

What it says - and I quote - is this:

 

The CoM rules are intended to provide flavor and intriguing options for Mental Powers - not as a cheap way for abusive players to try and make their characters immune to most mental attacks. Unless the GM indicates otherwise* assume that all players in the campaign are affected as if they belong to the human class of minds, regardless of their nature, where they come from, or the like. For example, a PC who's an android is a machine, but if he's smart enough and self-willed enough to function like a human being, he should probably be affected by both the human and machine classes of minds (for which he may be allowed to take a physical limitation...)

 

That's where it says it. The default position is that all PCs are human class, and, as we have discussed, that will be the core rule and deviations, which are not official optional rules (and 'unless the GM allows otherwise' isn't an optional rule) will be house rules, even if authorised by the rules.

 

Now, that's a pretty sensible approach, given that you are using CoM, because otherwise it is far too easy to become immune to a large number of mental attacks. However, the problem would not arise IF we didn't have CoM rules in the first place. To me creating a rule and then creating a general exception to balance play is a strong indicator we would have been better off without the rule in the first place.

 

*i.e. house rules

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

Before 5th edition we did not have Class of Mind rules, and didn't need them. They make very little sense to me because they state, in effect, 'here is an sfx based limitation on your powers BUT we want you to treat all PCs as human class of mind, even if they are not, by creation definition. In fact, let's go one better and actively penalise creative design by saying if you're an android who functions as a PC you probably are affected by both human and machine class powers'.

 

Now that's not a direct quote, you understand, but it is accurate, nonetheless, having actually looked at the book this time.

 

They don't add anything useful to the game (you can't define your powers as machine class and have your mind control change channel on the TV - that is very much NOT what it says, unless it also implies we need to build TVs with INT), and they force ill defined sfx on the game: why are all aliens identical in mind?

 

Now I post a lot from work, because I work for myself, and I can, but I don't have the book there and I genuinely thought that CoM was an optional rule (not a house rule, I've always known it is in the book, I shouldn't have types 'other'. Mea culpa) not the base state of mental powers, but finding out I'm wrong on that, well - I think you can divine my attitude to this particular rule, and I find that it being a core part of the system is astonishing.

 

I like the idea of meta rules, and I like the idea of a system that is as coherent as it can be without sacrificing gameplay. I would very much like to see discussion about the reasons behind decisions made in Hero, but I know we are not getting that, and, until we do, I don't feel even slightly guilty opining that a rule is simply wrong, even though, I know the argument that if it is a rule it can't, by definition be wrong. I think it is because all I've got to guess at the deep structures that underlie what we see on the surface IS what we see on the surface and how that interacts with other parts of the system. Hell, if I knew WHY some of the decisions were taken, I might well accept that is the best way to do it.

 

For the record I also like the idea of optional rules, but I think the core system should be as clean and unencumbered with unnecessay baggage as can be.

 

Also, if Tech has read what I have to say and gone away with a serious misconception he didn't want, I'm truly sorry, but I saw the title of the thread and thought it was a request.

 

I haven’t played anything prior to 5th Ed, but maybe you can explain your statement that, “Before 5th edition we did not have Class of Mind rules, and didn't need them.” See, the way Mental Powers are described now, if you bought Mental Control without using the Class of Mind rules you could force a person to do something, make a computer run programs or send messages, make a bear go attack someone, or control a sentient alien spaceship. That sounds like a game breaker to me at the current cost.

 

I don’t currently have my book with me either, but, as Hyper-Man quoted, “The basic classes include Human, Animal, Machine, and Alien; the GM can add other classes or alter these as he sees fit.” So, while Class of Mind is an actual rule, it states right in the description that these are “basic classes.” I’ve always read “basic classes” to be kind of a guideline, or starting point, to prevent the ridiculous use of mental powers I described above. Nowhere in that description do I see the statement that all Alien minds must be the same. I would think this would vary very much from campaign to campaign. “Alien” doesn’t necessarily mean “Extraterrestrial”. In a fantasy game you might consider a dragon to have an Animal class mind, or if dragons are considered magical, mystical creatures they may have Alien class minds as to not be easily controlled by the druid with animal control powers. It all depends on how you define things. In a Star Hero game you might have all the playable races have “human minds” (or sentient, biped minds if you prefer) to illustrate that mental powers work on MOST known sentient life-forms. Does that mean that you should never encounter a race that has a mind that operates so drastically different than ours as to be immune to mental powers? Sure, the GM could simply make every creature in that race have ridiculous high mental defense, but that seems like a costly and pointless way to present that difference.

 

My biggest problem with not having Class of Minds is the Machine Class of Mind. The argument that “you cannot change TV channels, hence MCoM is pointless and breaks the game,” is utterly baffling to me. Obviously in many campaigns the ability to control machine minds would be utterly useless, particularly in Fantasy or any pre-computer campaign. However, I see no reason to create a completely new set of powers to represent controlling intelligent machines in campaigns where it would be applicable, when Mental Control is already there, and does basically the same thing. In some ways, Machine Class of Minds has an advantage; humans, alien minds, and (depending on your personal philosophy and campaign setting) animals are all generally considered sentient beings while Mental Powers aimed at MCoM can affect ANY machine with intelligence (ex: most computers/anything computerized even without AI), it doesn’t have to be sentient, self-aware, have A.I., etcetera.

 

Try to look at it from a newbie’s point of view, (like I do, since I am one…). I’m running my first Champions game, and one of the PC’s player concepts is a “technomancer” that can glean information from and control computers simply by touching them. If the Mental Power section didn’t mention Machine Class of Mind, I’d be trying to build some kind of skill based power out of computer programming or something equally ridiculous. If I did think of using Telepathy, I’d have to figure out how to define it. “Okay, it gets an advantage because it works on computers, but it gets a disadvantage because it doesn’t work on people. So, do the Disad and Ad equal out? Is not being able to use it on people that big of a Disad when that PC will probably be the only character (PC or NPC) with that kind of ability?” Then the fun part comes. The PC’s get attacked by android-death-bot things. The PC wants to use his powers on the android thingies. Well, they’re not actually computers. But their robots, so their brains are computers, he argues. Yes, but they have A.I., are self-aware, and act like persons when they aren’t trying to kill you, so they’re people…kind of. The solution to this pathetic newbie’s problems? Wow, the book has classes of minds for mental powers, including Machine Class. Boy, that’s helpful!

I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it’s sure as heck helpful to someone who hasn’t dealt with this kind of thing before. And before you say, “it should be listed as an optional rule then” I’d like to note that the common advice new players and GMs is to ignore optional rules until they become more familiar with the system. IMO it is easier for YOU to use your well memorized Meta-rules to drop things that you don’t see necessary in your campaign than for EVERYONE ELSE to not have a fairly simple and effective rule in place that they can learn to adjust or ignore as they see fit as they go along.

 

P.S. I hope this post doesn’t sound harsh. I usually love your comments and insights, they make me look at things I’ve never considered about the system before, and you’ve been helpful and insightful to me a number of times, however, if I had posted this question a month or two ago, your first couple posts would have baffled me and sent me looking through the book, the FAQ, and the errata to find out why the Class of Mind rules were “rubbish” that apparently didn’t belong in the game, and I probably would have started telling other even newer people that they were optional rules. Just something to consider when you are posting on a “Rules Question” thread, especially if it is started by a newb.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

P.P.S.- Just read your last post, and your concern about how CoM affects PCs helps me understand your position somewhat better, but I think how it affects what the PCs are capable of is really the key point, and defining reason, behind why it was implimented in teh first place.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

I've just lost a long reply to bigbywolfe's post, and I'm thoroughly hacked off. The gist of it was this.

 

Mental Powers used to affect anything with EGO, IIRC. If they did not affect a particular 'class of mind' that was dealt with by a limitation.

 

The current CoM system assumes equal utility - as reflected by equal cost - for affecting any given CoM, and I disagree with that approach.

 

The CoM system also imposes changes on the entire game world: if a new class of mind exists (dragons, or multiple classes of aliens) that will not be obvious from the character sheet of any given character: a character with the spell : Mind Control (human class) doesn't tell you if that spell affects dragons, because it doesn;t tell you whether dragons have human minds. A spell that is defined with a limitation : only humans and humanoids DOES tell you, because dragons are neither human nor humanoid.

 

In other words the CoM system makes the game less universal, and does so quite unnecessarily.

 

I believe a new power would be a better move than the CoM rules for machine control because - for instance - a TV would not normally be built with either EGO or INT, and so falls betweent he cracks anyway - there is enough richness and demand for a dedicated power, and I'd say that there are other 'control' powers that need to be addressed as they are common enough in genre - say plant control, for instance.

 

I appreciate your point about giving duff info on a rule question thread but I genuinely thought that CoM wasan optional rule - we are all learning all fo the time. Apologies for any confusion, but I think Derek and Hyperman cleared up my mess pretty quickly.

 

Finally I appreciate the way in which bigbywolfe presented what he had to say in an intelligent, logical and freindly manner - it did not sound harsh at all. I do use hyperbole on occasion to encourage lively debate. I don't like the rules, but they are better than nothing at all - I just think that they could be considerably better

[Vulcan]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

I kind of agree that CoM is a rather poorly written rule. However, it does have some value in that it shows new people how to use mental powers for certain uses (access computer memory, in the aformentioned example).

 

Turning on a TV would not work with Mind Control MCoM, since TV's do not have a rateable INT. TK works just fine though!

[Checkmate]

Re: Mind Scan confusion

 

I absolutely agree with Sean. I can't think of a single campaign world where Mind Control vs Animals or Machines is just as valuable as Mind Control vs Humans (by humans I mean the default character type. If it was a game on Cybertron where everyone was a robot, then robot is the default character type).