"Outsider" perspective on Hero System

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Again, I agree. As a HERO gamer, I love the rules books. The HERO System book itself and all its companions (the Genre books and Ultimate series most especially) however the settings books are another matter entirely. I don't have a single one. I've looked at them, but found them lacking. The settings have very little unique flavor and they tend to be generic in the extreme. I know this is done on purpose to allow HERO gamers to tailor their games to their own playstyles, but when it comes to setting material, the more detail, the better. They should take lessons from the settings masters, White Wolf. Boy can those guys detail and flavor a setting! Sure, they overdo it a lot, but the following that their settings generate is surpassed only by the following that D&D settings have.

 

I think White Wolf' popularity is due more to their marketing than the quality of their settings which are, frankly, all pretty much the same essential set up with slightly different coats of paints and a few new repurposed words. They were something "different' when they first hit the scene and played that up, making them look like the supposedly intellectual, sophisticated choice over "mere" D and D. It appealed to the vanity and needs of their target market very well and that reputation has stuck with them and been played on very well. White wolf's settings are detailed but they are also notably one note, lack much internal consistency or editorial oversight and usually have heavy handed metaplots that drive the game instead of the PCs who are largely helpless against it.

 

There is some quality in their settings but I don't think they are that dazzling in and of themselves but a combination of skilled marketing, long term fandom, reputation and okay product have kept them popular over the years. It's not the system almost certainly. I've heard it said many times even be fans that you play White Games despite the storyteller system not because of it.

 

But I largely agree that I get Hero because of the system not the settings which I don't find very inspiring overall beyond sources of occasional ideas for my own settings. That's not disparaging DOJ or other authors; I don't use any setting out of the box but I can understand probably being in the minority nowadays.

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Nowadays I tend to bail on topics like this early, because for me the subject isn't worth the effort of proving myself "right" against a dedicated arguer. Debate can be an interesting intellectual exercise, but at the end of the day this is just a game; one meant to be enjoyable, not stressful.

 

And all too often it isn't actually a debate or a discussion, it's an endurance contest. Whoever can say the same things over and over again the most wins. Bonus points for saying the same thing in several different ways and the more utterly subjective the point of the argument is the better.

 

Like I said early on the thread: HERO isn't perfect, it isn't for everyone, and one has the right not to like it for whatever reason.

 

Personally, I've never claimed Hero was perfect. It's damn good but nothing is perfect or right for everyone. What annoys me is some of the out and out lies, completely misunderstandings and stupid hyperbole that's so often presented as facts and has come to be excepted as truth. People don't like Hero System, that's cool. But when the same old tripe starts getting spewed often by people that have never played it, yeah that does get under the skin because it DOES have an effect. People hear that and when they see the books recall it then don't even give them a chance to see if they MIGHT actually like it because they believed some one on rpg,net that said it takes 3 hours and a graphing calculator to make a character.

[Vondy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I think White Wolf' popularity is due more to their marketing than the quality of their settings which are, frankly, all pretty much the same essential set up with slightly different coats of paints and a few new repurposed words. They were something "different' when they first hit the scene and played that up, making them look like the supposedly intellectual, sophisticated choice over "mere" D and D. It appealed to the vanity and needs of their target market very well and that reputation has stuck with them and been played on very well. White wolf's settings are detailed but they are also notably one note, lack much internal consistency or editorial oversight and usually have heavy handed metaplots that drive the game instead of the PCs who are largely helpless against it.

 

There is some quality in their settings but I don't think they are that dazzling in and of themselves but a combination of skilled marketing, long term fandom, reputation and okay product have kept them popular over the years. It's not the system almost certainly. I've heard it said many times even be fans that you play White Games despite the storyteller system not because of it.

 

But I largely agree that I get Hero because of the system not the settings which I don't find very inspiring overall beyond sources of occasional ideas for my own settings. That's not disparaging DOJ or other authors; I don't use any setting out of the box but I can understand probably being in the minority nowadays.

 

I think DP9 would be a good example of a company with unique, well-presented settings: Jovian Chronicles, Tribe 8, Heavy Gear. And the Silhouette system is good for heroic level games. Its the only other system I use. And Godlike was a great setting concept that could have been capitalized on, even if the system was... lacking (IMO, of course).

 

As for White Wolf: 1st Ed. Vampire the Masquerade, before it took off and they got smug and lazy and watered down the concept, was presented in a novel way and was well done as a setting [and had good artwork to boot]. It started out super-strong (IMO) and then went down hill in terms of quality even as its sales rose. And Aberrant, while not to a lot of comic fans tastes, was well presented and had a lot of potential (that they didn't capitalize on).

 

Even SJG, while admittedly not producing too many truly unique RPG settings, has created a lot of games with unique premises: Car Wars, Illuminati, and Ogre come to mind. These are fairly narrow concepts, but they work because they have personality.

 

I just wish DOJ would come up with something that had its own persona - even if its inspired by some fictional source. Admittedly, its going out on a limb, but that's how you not only draw in "new users," but show what the system can do in terms of being tailored to a specific task.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I like White Wolfs settings. Then again, I like very dark, angsty gothic horror. Always have. I'm a huge fan of such movies as The Lost Boys, Fright Night. The Howling (yes even The Howling II: Your sister is a werewolf) Cold Hearts etc.

 

While I agree that the angst in Vampire and Werewolf were a bit overdone, I have to disagree that they were poor quality. I felt the quality in the mid level White Wolf products (Vampire 2cnd and 3rd editions etc) was incredibly high. Not only in the sheer amount and level of detail in their products, but in presentation and marketing as well. Certainly they won't appeal to everyone, but they had a huge appeal considering that White Wolf almost came outta nowhere to take the RPG world by storm for many years and singlehandedly responsible for a resurgance in interest in RPG's and also did the impossible by bringing in large numbers of females into the pen and paper RPG arena.

 

The White Wolf game I think that was the best but got the least amount of respect was Werewolf. Most people were into vampire, but I feel that Werewolf was the better setting.

 

But even if one doesn't like the tone of White Wolf's settings, one cannot argue with the level of detail they present in their settings and thats something DOJ can learn from.

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

, I have to disagree that they were poor quality.

 

I don't think they were poor quality either, at least not at first. They were mediocre and the more they heaped into them they more they seemed to suffer for the strain and since they've been kind of a one note company as far as settings go.

 

Certainly they won't appeal to everyone, but they had a huge appeal considering that White Wolf almost came outta nowhere to take the RPG world by storm for many years and singlehandedly responsible for a resurgance in interest in RPG's and also did the impossible by bringing in large numbers of females into the pen and paper RPG arena.

 

I think you maybe giving White wolf a little more credit than it's due in the former case though the latter does have some merit.

 

But even if one doesn't like the tone of White Wolf's settings, one cannot argue with the level of detail they present in their settings and that's something DOJ can learn from.

 

I think white wolf tends to over detail their settings honestly. The initial corebooks are interesting but then come book after book after book often with little editorial oversight or even guidance, competitive writers (often free lancers that may not have been read the other books) and attempts to make the setting "deep" IOW: shovel on the angst and woe even when it's not appropriate, IMO… Exalted is probably the worst offender in this area, IMO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

.........

In this case I think you are confusing the disruption of the nervous system (DEX disruption) with actual stun. This may be because the "stun gun" tasers are so often equated with is a misnomer. The actual stun being done is probably a few dice at most - and yet it needs to consistently produce a stunned result. This makes modeling an effect that reflects the actual results of taser use in the field is extremely difficult. It almost begs to be done as a mind control [as odd as that sounds].

 

............................

 

It hurts, but the main thing is that its messing with your nervous system, not that its knocking you out.

 

 

I quite agree, and stun is probably not the best way to do it (maybe supress stun - stunned but no actual damage past that phase?) it is just that draining DEX costs even more, so i'm going kinda meta on the effect - it puts people down and stops them coming back at you for long enough to get cuffs on them/kick them in the nads/run away. Accurately modeling it would probably require several effects but the overall effect is it stops them. Even mind control would be expensive. Maybe some sort of mental paralysis (also not cheap...).

 

It is NOT that Hero can't do it - it can - but the cost does not reflect the overall utility - this is a build where you would probably be justified in taking the real cost rather than the active cost as appropriate and representative.

[Vondy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I quite agree, and stun is probably not the best way to do it (maybe supress stun - stunned but no actual damage past that phase?) it is just that draining DEX costs even more, so i'm going kinda meta on the effect - it puts people down and stops them coming back at you for long enough to get cuffs on them/kick them in the nads/run away. Accurately modeling it would probably require several effects but the overall effect is it stops them. Even mind control would be expensive. Maybe some sort of mental paralysis (also not cheap...).

 

It is NOT that Hero can't do it - it can - but the cost does not reflect the overall utility - this is a build where you would probably be justified in taking the real cost rather than the active cost as appropriate and representative.

 

I was thinking on this and came up with a general notion of how to handle it:

 

 

NND 1d6 [grounded, rigid protection, super-thick clothing, etc], continuous

 

plus

 

NND 5d6 [grounded, rigid protection, super-thick clothing, etc], continuous, only for the purpose of determining stunned results.

 

This allows the attack to get a stunned result on normal targets while nickle-and-diming their actual stun score. The average stun damage will be 3.5 per hit, which should reduce a normal person with 20 stun to the -1 to -9 stun range in six hits while consistently producing 21 stun for the purposes of stunning. A really tough person will take more hits.

 

I did not include charges, foci, and the like as they are extraneous to the core effect. Also, I didn't address the controversy surrounding whether or not repeated taser use can prove lethal or, at the very least, be a contributing cause of death when other health issues (drug use, weight, heart conditions, etcetera) are in play.

 

Despite the taser companies histrionic and heavy handed attempts to say that's not the case, a growing body of evidence seems to point to the fact that misapplied taser usage can contribute to cause of death. That might be best handled with Side Effects.

[Kenn]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

here's an example of something a player wanted - a taser gun. Hit someone with the taser dart and they are pretty much instantly unconscious (or incapacitated) for some time. Not unrealistic. You see it a lot in lots of genres - but' date=' because of the nature of Hero it is expensive to build at the level of effect it is usually demonstrated as operating at. An instant KO is hard to pull off in a point balance game, and this was Dark Champions - basically non-super humans with lots of fun equipment, training and attitude.[/quote']

 

Taser Dart: 1 pip RKA, +52 Stun Multiplier (+13) - 65 Active points, Adjust END cost/charges, range, and Focus limitations to taste.

 

It'll do 52 to 57 STUN with each shot, and 1 BODY (from the dart and the current) to an unarmoured opponent. It'll knock an "average" adult into "GM discretion" every time. It's a powerful enough jolt that most supers will feel its effects.

 

And while more active points than a lot of hand guns, it's fewer active points than the average assault rifle. And, even the 40 pt. version (+32 Stun Multiplier) will at least knockout most adults.

 

I'm not sure if it would be considered "balanced", but it uses existing rules to generate the effect.

[BNakagawa]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Taser Dart: 1 pip RKA, +52 Stun Multiplier (+13) - 65 Active points, Adjust END cost/charges, range, and Focus limitations to taste.

 

It'll do 52 to 57 STUN with each shot, and 1 BODY (from the dart and the current) to an unarmoured opponent. It'll knock an "average" adult into "GM discretion" every time. It's a powerful enough jolt that most supers will feel its effects.

 

And while more active points than a lot of hand guns, it's fewer active points than the average assault rifle. And, even the 40 pt. version (+32 Stun Multiplier) will at least knockout most adults.

 

I'm not sure if it would be considered "balanced", but it uses existing rules to generate the effect.

 

It uses existing rules to point out flaws in the existing rules. The current +1 stun mod advantage is underpriced.

 

Also, the first version is just a LITTLE overpowered. Nobody, not even Grond can take 8 hits from that. Sort of invalidates the oft cited 'tased him 8 times' stories, doesn't it?

[Kenn]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

It uses existing rules to point out flaws in the existing rules. The current +1 stun mod advantage is underpriced.

 

Also, the first version is just a LITTLE overpowered. Nobody, not even Grond can take 8 hits from that. Sort of invalidates the oft cited 'tased him 8 times' stories, doesn't it?

 

Sean wanted "taser dart and they are pretty much instantly unconscious (or incapacitated) for some time". "Some time" is vague. The range called "GM discretion" is certainly some time. It may be too much, but I erred on that side, rather than the "oh it won't knock him out long enough to be realistic" side. If it's too much, it can be scaled back.

 

The +1/4 might be under priced, but I think +1/2 is over priced. And Hero doesn't allow for +3/8 Advantages.

 

I don't have Grond's stats memorised, so I don't know how effective it would be on him. Assuming Grond has a 40 ED, he'd take 12-17 STUN per shot. He'd take about the same from a 4d6 NND attack (assuming he lacks the defense).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

re: Taser

 

per Dark Champions page 262 ■ Weapons

 

23 Taser (Ranged): Energy Blast 8d6, NND (defense is insulated ED; +1) (80 Active Points); OAF (-1); Limited Range (4”; -¼), 1 Recoverable Charge (-1¼)

 

However,

according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser

 

A Taser is an electroshock weapon that uses Electro-Muscular Disruption (EMD) technology[1] to cause neuromuscular incapacitation[2] (NMI) and strong muscle contractions through the involuntary stimulation of both the sensory nerves and the motor nerves. The Taser is not dependent on pain compliance making it highly effective on subjects with high pain tolerance. For this reason it is preferred by law enforcement over traditional stun guns and other electronic control weapons.[3][4][5] Currently there are two main police models, the M26 and X26. Both come with various accessories, including a laser sight and mounted digital video camera that can record in low-light situations. Taser International is also marketing a civilian model called the C2.

 

I might build it as the following:

 

24 Taser (Ranged): Suppress CON 12d6 (standard effect: 36 points) (60 Active Points); OAF (-1), Limited Range (4”; -1/4), 4 clips of 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1/4)

[Notes: Hero System 5th Edition, Revised - Chapter One Page 37 - Negative Constitution - At CON 0 or below, a character must succeed with a CON Roll to expend END in any way. Any Action that costs END requires a CON Roll, with separate rolls for each Action if the character performs multiple Actions in a Phase. Characters with a CON of -30 (or minus their initial CON value, whichever is better for the character) or less may take no Actions that cost END.]

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Just use a 1 DEF Entangle. Seriously.

 

I know too many people who have been hit with a taser (not counting the cops who had to get his to get certified) who never went unconcious - unable to respond yes, but awake the entire time. Sometimes completely aware but their body is simply non-responsive.

 

Sounds like an Entangle to me.

 

 

And yes - this point is worth sticking on because it outlines a really big point of contention "the inability to model an effect simply" is not a System Issue - it comes down to what you think that effect really is. It's a Player Issue.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

It uses existing rules to point out flaws in the existing rules. The current +1 stun mod advantage is underpriced.

 

Also, the first version is just a LITTLE overpowered. Nobody, not even Grond can take 8 hits from that. Sort of invalidates the oft cited 'tased him 8 times' stories, doesn't it?

 

First off, for the same 65 points, I could have a 13d6 EB which will average 46.5 STUN, 13 BOD and 6" knockback. That doesn't seem all that dissimilar in power - add 5.5 - 10.5 STUN and lose 12 BOD and all Knockback.

 

Second, an attack in Hero that can hit a normal 8 times without KO'ing him will be ineffectual against most PC level targets. That's a function of defenses. I doubt many RPG,s include attacks which are devestating against normals and still somewhat useful against powerful opponents, unless the game is based on massive boosts to damage capacity (D&D hit points) rather than defenses.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

..............

 

Despite the taser companies histrionic and heavy handed attempts to say that's not the case, a growing body of evidence seems to point to the fact that misapplied taser usage can contribute to cause of death. That might be best handled with Side Effects.

 

 

....just as the British Police are about to train 30 000 officers to use them....sigh....

 

Side Effects sounds good, but might make death from taser a little too common (Side Effect: Hunted by the authorities for unlawful killing). Perhaps a one pip Body drain on an activation roll, linked to the NND - the effects will be temporary - only lasting 12 seconds, but if you are hit several times and the activation rolls are made, it could be fatal.

[Korvar]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

....just as the British Police are about to train 30 000 officers to use them....sigh....

 

Interestingly: Met 'will not extend' Taser use

 

(/derail)

[Alibear]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I know too many people who have been hit with a taster

 

I'd love to be hit by a taster.

 

"Oh, Big Boy, let me taste you!"

 

"Go right ahead, love, but remember just tasting, no swallowing!"

 

 

 

 

I agree with the entangle idea btw.

[Vondy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

It is NOT that Hero can't do it - it can - but the cost does not reflect the overall utility - this is a build where you would probably be justified in taking the real cost rather than the active cost as appropriate and representative.

 

While I'm aware of this dichotomy, I'm not generally affected by it. I run heroic level games. Since people aren't paying points for gear at that level of play its not a problem. With supers its a bigger issue.

[Markdoc]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I'm not sure how you can bring in 'accuracy' into the picture here. The situation you are creating has no degree of measurement, no common basis for comparison, and starts on a faulty and flawed premise that Collosus and Rogue had some form of equality in power levels.

 

Since Rogue routinely stole Colossus' powers and also added the powers of others, I take it as given that they were not built on the same points - they're not even close to being the same power level. So you are right, this seems like a poorly thought-out example.

 

In fact the X-men as a whole run a huge gamut in power ranges best summed up by the Editing Room

 

FADE IN: EXT. SNOWY ROAD

 

HUGH JACKMAN discovers ANNA PAQUIN

 

ANNA PAQUIN

I am a mutant too! You should take me under your wing as a pseudo father figure for my dejected self. Perhaps I can develop a crush on you later that makes the tension between us kind of weird.

 

HUGH JACKMAN

Sure, bub. What’s your power?

 

ANNA PAQUIN

I can pout. (pouting)

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Even SJG' date=' while admittedly not producing too many truly unique RPG settings, has created a lot of games with unique premises: Car Wars, Illuminati, and Ogre come to mind. These are fairly narrow concepts, but they work because they have personality.[/quote']

 

I agree - in fact, I'd go further: I think that games with strong personality more or less have to be narrow. How can you have a strong, unique, characterful ... but generic ... setting?

 

As a result, I've lost count of the number of times I've skimmed a setting for another game and thought "I'd love to run/play this setting! (Pity about the rules...)". My reaction to the Hero setting books I buy is more "I can probably use some stuff from this for my games"

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

....just as the British Police are about to train 30 000 officers to use them....sigh....

 

Interestingly: Met 'will not extend' Taser use

 

(/derail)

 

 

Oh thank the Lord!

[JmOz]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

....just as the British Police are about to train 30 000 officers to use them....sigh....

 

Side Effects sounds good, but might make death from taser a little too common (Side Effect: Hunted by the authorities for unlawful killing). Perhaps a one pip Body drain on an activation roll, linked to the NND - the effects will be temporary - only lasting 12 seconds, but if you are hit several times and the activation rolls are made, it could be fatal.

 

What I did for my taesers was kin of simple...

 

6d6 EB, x number of charges, xxF (normaly OAF), reduced penetration

 

on average it does 21 stun -2 for ED =19, and 2 body , if the guy is a little tougher (More ED) body damage drops to 0. Realise this is for taking down norms not supers or even heroic characters, so even a guy with 5 ED and 30 stun will go down in 2-3 shots...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Given the descriptions of the actual effect of tasers, it sounds like they STUN more effectively than they KO. Perhaps this might be modeled as, say, a 2d6 EB with +Xd6 "STUN only; STUN recovers immediately". So a typical shot on a 2 ED character inflicts 5 actual stun (7 - 2 defenses), but adds several more dice that can only STUN, not KO, the target. Another 4d6 would average 19 stun, Stunning a target with CON 18-. Add another d6 and an average hit does 22.5 for Stunning purposes, getting most targets in the normal human range on a typical hit.

 

So a character hit with two Tasers, one in each phase, takes 10 STUN and gets stunned twice. He then recovers 4 STUN. It doesn't take much of a boost to ED, STUN and/or REC to see that normal guy get Tase'd 8 times and still be conscious.

[Alibear]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Doesn't that sound needlessly complicated to you? An entangle, or even dex or str suppression seems much more elegant to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Doesn't that sound needlessly complicated to you? An entangle' date=' or even dex or str suppression seems much more elegant to me.[/quote']

 

It sounds like the effect being sought - a short period during which the target cannot act.

 

Can the Taser continue adding to the Suppress? How much END does it have to keep maintaining its Suppress, or multiple Suppresses?

 

The Entangle in question will also be complicated - how does one break out of a Taser? Clearly it provides me no defenses, and my teammates can't break me out of it. And if I tase someone who's already unconscious, they now need to use an attack action to break out when they wake up?

 

How does someone pass out, or even perish, from multiple taser hits if they cannot do STUN or BOD?

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

It sounds like the effect being sought - a short period during which the target cannot act.

 

Can the Taser continue adding to the Suppress? How much END does it have to keep maintaining its Suppress, or multiple Suppresses?

 

The Entangle in question will also be complicated - how does one break out of a Taser? Clearly it provides me no defenses, and my teammates can't break me out of it. And if I tase someone who's already unconscious, they now need to use an attack action to break out when they wake up?

 

How does someone pass out, or even perish, from multiple taser hits if they cannot do STUN or BOD?

 

A number of things come to mind when reading this and thinking about Tasers.

 

Most taser related deaths have to do with the condition of the victim - those with heart conditions - or the placement of the taser darts (assuming they stick into the chest cavity a direct shock near the heart can induce arrhythmia, leading to failure).

 

Breaking out of a taser "entangle" would require it being modeled with various Advantages and switching it to some form of CON Roll instead of STR Context. Some people simply come back faster from nervous system interruption, some seem to feel after affects for hours.

 

Part of the problem with modeling ANYTHING having to do with real life is that the number of possible reactions to an induced condition is massively varied. You really do have to choose which one you think best fits the condition being induced.

 

Tasers rarely kill - every US Officer carrying one has been shot with it, if death's were that common we'd hear more about it and I'd bet less agencies would introduce them. That says to me taser-related deaths are due to conditions above and beyond the taser itself.

 

They also don't Knockout, or even Stun very often. Though getting knocked cold by a Taser is far more common than being killed by one, and the immediate response of a lot of people to that condition is to just go limp (perhaps screaming), which is a lot like being Stunned.

 

But by far the most common reaction to being hit by a Taser is loss of motor control.

 

(keep in mind, I've never been hit by a taser, and all of this is from listening to people who have been hit, and reading reports on them.)

 

So we go back to What's Going On, and choosing the best Power - or set of Powers - from that.

 

Perhaps a Taser is a Linked set of Powers, Stun Only EB (to Stun) and Entangle (to incapacitate). Perhaps anyone with "Physical Limitation: Heart Condition" might need to make a CON Roll to stay alive to boot (as a Campaign parameter).