"Outsider" perspective on Hero System

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Timewarp Taser Episode

 

slow motion taser

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Since the effect appears to be nearly automatic in one shot I decided to use Suppress vs. STUN instead. To reflect the idea that the wielder can hit the target with 'more juice' I added the Continuous Advantage to the power to allow a doubling or more of the effect on subsequent phases. Note that Suppress is already a constant power.

 

29 Taser (Ranged) v3: Suppress STUN 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points), Continuous (Each additional attack drains the battery (fuel charge) more quickly.; +1) (80 Active Points); OAF (-1), Limited Range (4"; -1/4), Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), 1 Recoverable Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1/4) [1 rc]

[sbarron]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I'd like to jump in here and say that I think this is where HERO players frequently take a wrong turn. HERO rules, toolkit, system, whatever, uses a fair amount of math, special mechanics, and dice rolling to represent "real" world effects. The problem is that because you can represent most things using these numbers and mechanics, players and GMs try to do everything with them. Some things don't fit the system very well. The taser seems like a good example. It's not really an attack against stun, its kind of like an invisible entagle while its activated, it can't knock you out, in rare instances it can kill you, etc.

 

In situations like this, another approach might work better. We all played D&D for years, and all the rules were based around a narrative explanation of how almost every element works. Can't we do the same thing in situations like this?

 

"Taser: Tasers temporarily incompacitate their victims. So long as the taser is active, characters with less than a 15 CON or 15 EGO are unable to take an action. Characters with a 15 CON or EGO are able to make a CON or EGO roll to act in their phase. Characters effected by a taser must make a CON or EGO roll in order to begin using their muscles again, due to the residual effect of the taser." 15 Real Points.

 

Set the CON and EGO levels where you want, or use something else. Come up with a point total that works for your game and creates the balance you're looking for. If you want some exceptions, add them in. We all know how tasers work. There is no reason for this to be this complicated. Trying to recreate a taser using HEROese, while endlessly entertaining, might be time better spent actually playing the game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

The problem I have with the Entangle based approach is figuring out how would it interact with an Electricity based Champions character?

 

It creates as many issues as it solves. Lightning Lad or Livewire should arguably be immune to this effect but I doubt many would build the characters with it in mind.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Define "knocked out" though. While victims may not technically be unconscious, how aware are they of the world around them? Might be the SFX of being lightly knocked out (above -10 Stun).

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I'd like to jump in here and say that I think this is where HERO players frequently take a wrong turn. HERO rules' date=' toolkit, system, whatever, uses a fair amount of math, special mechanics, and dice rolling to represent "real" world effects. The problem is that because you can represent most things using these numbers and mechanics, players and GMs try to do [u']everything[/u] with them. Some things don't fit the system very well. The taser seems like a good example. It's not really an attack against stun, its kind of like an invisible entagle while its activated, it can't knock you out, in rare instances it can kill you, etc.

 

In situations like this, another approach might work better. We all played D&D for years, and all the rules were based around a narrative explanation of how almost every element works. Can't we do the same thing in situations like this?

 

Then why really bother to use the Hero rules at all? You can make things up and guesstimate everything. Not being snarky but if you're just going to handwave any "complicated" effects why get into the rule set at all? Just decide how effective things are and set the price arbitrarily.

 

I don't think some of the builds suggested here are getting a little complicated in trying to model the "exact" effect but not what it basically does in game terms (stuns/dazes the target in a manner that can be effect by physical hardiness). Seems like straight NND EB is the most direct way to build it.

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

The problem I have with the Entangle based approach is figuring out how would it interact with an Electricity based Champions character?

 

It creates as many issues as it solves. Lightning Lad or Livewire should arguably be immune to this effect but I doubt many would build the characters with it in mind.

 

Give it a limitation based on the relative commonality of those character in the game. In some games wouldn't be worth anything because those character won't show up at all or be so rare it would be a plot device. Something limited or no effect against characters that highly resistant to electricity or insulated in some fashion. Probably wouldn't effect characters with drastically different biologies or body either. Some thing would just come down to sfx vs sfx.

[Zeropoint]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Coming in late:

 

Regarding the interaction and mutual annihilation of matter and antimatter:

 

*A lot of energy is liberated but the total matter+energy after is less than the matter+energy before.

 

This is not the case.

 

The principle of conservation of mass/energy states that the total mass + energy before ANY event is ALWAYS exactly equal to the total mass + energy after the event. The "exchange rate" for mass and energy is given by Einstein's famous equation, E=mc^2. This means, basically, that for every kilogram of mass that is missing after the event, you'll find c^2 joules of energy that weren't there before. Likewise, for every c^2 joules of energy that "disappear", you'll find one kilogram of new mass.

 

Note that both matter and antimatter count as mass; antimatter does NOT have "negative mass" or zero mass.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

...

Seems like straight NND EB is the most direct way to build it.

 

The biggest problem with NND or even a vanilla Stun Only EB is that evidence shows that most targets recover from the effects of being 'tased' within a couple of seconds of the taser being turned off.

 

In HERO, when a character is Stunned or Knocked Out due to a Suppress vs. Stun they recover ALL of their Stun when the Suppress is ended (when the Taser is turned off).

 

The mechanic perfectly fits the sfx imo.

[SteveZilla]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

A power lasting one Turn:

 

Continuing Charge: 1 Turn?

 

No, NOTHING hits automatically, you CAN reduce things to 3 DCV (AoE: Accurate) and then pump up your accuracy with that attack, but that must be bought & paid for because the benchmark is to be 'average' in accuracy, not automatic. It can be done, it can vary in expense, and I know now why people were so cheesed off when I pointed it out the first time.

 

Neither a feature nor a flaw; just a design element.

 

Why were they so cheesed off? Was it maybe that in Fantasy Hero, a "1st Level" spell that always hits (magicmissle) is now suddenly much more costly than many (most, I would think) other 1st level spells?

[SteveZilla]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Doesn't Bleed: Unfortunately' date=' you have to break a rule to use the Automaton power on a character. But it can be done without too much anguish.[/quote']

 

No rule breaking needed. Just buy Regeneration and apply an additional Limitation: Only To Prevent Bleeding(-1) They don't get any BODY back, but the fact that they have Regneration, which is Healing, which when applied stops Bleeding, should work just fine.

 

 

A 1 Turn power is easy. A 1 Turn power that isn't restricted to a certain number of uses each day, costs END (if it normally would), and is "Fire & Forget" takes a small amount of work. To do the latter, I'd suggest using Costs END To Start, and Uncontrolled (Lasts 1 Turn).

 

A power that hits automatically: Area Effect' date=' on a large scale, with a limitation that it only actually effects one target.[/quote']

 

Good one!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I'd like to jump in here and say that I think this is where HERO players frequently take a wrong turn. HERO rules' date=' toolkit, system, whatever, uses a fair amount of math, special mechanics, and dice rolling to represent "real" world effects. The problem is that because you can represent most things using these numbers and mechanics, players and GMs try to do [u']everything[/u] with them. Some things don't fit the system very well. The taser seems like a good example. It's not really an attack against stun, its kind of like an invisible entagle while its activated, it can't knock you out, in rare instances it can kill you, etc.

 

In situations like this, another approach might work better. We all played D&D for years, and all the rules were based around a narrative explanation of how almost every element works. Can't we do the same thing in situations like this?

 

"Taser: Tasers temporarily incompacitate their victims. So long as the taser is active, characters with less than a 15 CON or 15 EGO are unable to take an action. Characters with a 15 CON or EGO are able to make a CON or EGO roll to act in their phase. Characters effected by a taser must make a CON or EGO roll in order to begin using their muscles again, due to the residual effect of the taser." 15 Real Points.

 

Set the CON and EGO levels where you want, or use something else. Come up with a point total that works for your game and creates the balance you're looking for. If you want some exceptions, add them in. We all know how tasers work. There is no reason for this to be this complicated. Trying to recreate a taser using HEROese, while endlessly entertaining, might be time better spent actually playing the game.

 

So what does it cost for a Champions character who wants to carry a Taser, a Superspy who wants one from his Equipment Points or a Sci Fi Alien evolved from an Electric Eel who wants to generate the effect naturally?

 

Part of the problem is that the taser does many things, robs motor control, maybe stuns, maybe KO's, maybe kills, with each one less and less likely. If it's extremely rare, maybe it gets left out (so tasers don't do BOD), just like a 1" fall can't do BOD against a normal human in Hero, but can break bones or even kill in real life.

 

If it's uncommon, maybe it gets stripped out too. OK, a Taser can't knock you out - so what? A fall of 3" (between 15' and 20') can't KO a normal human - try falling 15' in real life! It's a limitation of game modelling that we accept for playability.

 

That leaves "it robs me of my actions" and "I recover fast". Could be "I'm stunned". Or it could be a negative CHAR that forces a (tought to succed) roll to act. Which stat? CON only restricts spending END, so that's not it. DEX restricts physical movement. Closer, but still not quite there. EGO prevents acts of my own volition, but I follow orders. That's not it. PRE doesn't match - it lets me run away. INT lets me keep doing what I'm doing.

 

I'm going to say the Taser is best modelled by reducing DEX, plus a small CE, one target only, that forces a DEX roll or fall down.

 

Is it a Suppress or a Drain? Supress ends instantly, so that's too fast. Drain recovers every 12 seconds. That might be fast enough. If you want it faster, put a "recovers every phase", "recovers every three segments" or whatever feels right to you on the power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Why were they so cheesed off? Was it maybe that in Fantasy Hero' date=' a "1st Level" spell that always hits (magicmissle) is now suddenly much more costly than many (most, I would think) other 1st level spells?

 

My general belief is that, if you want to play D&D, you should play D&D.

 

It's funny that losing the "automatic hit" aspect of a magic missile spell is such a horrific change between the systems, but the change to other aspects is not viewed with such horror. Most notably, a Magic Missile is pretty much incapable of taking down any opponent. 2 - 5 damage at first level has a decent chance of taking out a 1st level wizard or a kobold, maybe 50/50 against a low CON thief or goblin. It rapidly becomes nickel and dime damage.

 

An auto hit attack that has a 50/50 chance of doing 1 BOD and does 1 - 3 STUN would be a lot less expensive, wouldn't it? Maybe Magic Missile should be a 1/2 d6 NND (defense is all those D&D things that stop them; call that +2), does BOD (+2), always hits (call that +3, even) Autofire 5 shot (+2 - doubled once for NND and once for Always Hits) attack, 0 END (+1). That costs 33 AP (3 x 11), which should be pretty comparable to any other first level spell, maybe even cheaper. And it does 5 - 15 STUN and an average of 2.5 BOD when you fire of 5 missiles (a D&D character only gets that 5th missile at 9th level).

 

But the character typically wants a Magic Missile that does much more damage in Hero terms than it did in D&D terms to be comparable with an arrow or sword blow, without sacrificing the multiple missiles and automatic hit the D&D rules provided. That sounds like a much higher level spell. It's not a Meteor Swarm, but it's not a Magic Missile either.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

My general belief is that, if you want to play D&D, you should play D&D.

 

It's funny that losing the "automatic hit" aspect of a magic missile spell is such a horrific change between the systems, but the change to other aspects is not viewed with such horror. Most notably, a Magic Missile is pretty much incapable of taking down any opponent. 2 - 5 damage at first level has a decent chance of taking out a 1st level wizard or a kobold, maybe 50/50 against a low CON thief or goblin. It rapidly becomes nickel and dime damage.

 

An auto hit attack that has a 50/50 chance of doing 1 BOD and does 1 - 3 STUN would be a lot less expensive, wouldn't it? Maybe Magic Missile should be a 1/2 d6 NND (defense is all those D&D things that stop them; call that +2), does BOD (+2), always hits (call that +3, even) Autofire 5 shot (+2 - doubled once for NND and once for Always Hits) attack, 0 END (+1). That costs 33 AP (3 x 11), which should be pretty comparable to any other first level spell, maybe even cheaper. And it does 5 - 15 STUN and an average of 2.5 BOD when you fire of 5 missiles (a D&D character only gets that 5th missile at 9th level).

 

But the character typically wants a Magic Missile that does much more damage in Hero terms than it did in D&D terms to be comparable with an arrow or sword blow, without sacrificing the multiple missiles and automatic hit the D&D rules provided. That sounds like a much higher level spell. It's not a Meteor Swarm, but it's not a Magic Missile either.

 

Agreed. One thing Hero does that D&D doesn't is have a typically much flatter "progression" for health (Body/Stun/Hit Points). It's not that you COULDN'T keep buying them up, but if you look at the typical "5th level" equivalent character built in Hero, it does NOT have 5 times as much Body and Stun as a "1st level" equivalent character. Sometimes we call that being more "realistic" or whatever. Doesn't really matter. Hero just has a DIFFERENT way of balancing things. Damage itself is a "bell-shaped" curve (unless you have only one die), and while more stable than a flat distribution, you also don't have those automatic hit type effects. At some point you have to go, "Okay. I've modelled the basic elements. Just like D&D's Magic Missile, this is going to allow that low-CV character to be effective. I'm not going to get the mechanics to EXACTLY match because it IS a different system, so let's call it good."

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

The biggest problem with NND or even a vanilla Stun Only EB is that evidence shows that most targets recover from the effects of being 'tased' within a couple of seconds of the taser being turned off.

 

In Hero scale combat, a couple of seconds is a roughly a Phase of being Stunned or (less than -10 KO'ed)). From what I've observed of taser incidents those that are taken down don't automatically pop back up full and hearty the instant the shock ends either and some just go down (randomly high damage roll) so I think an EB is a fine way to model the effect for game purposes without getting overly complicated for pretty straight forward intent. I don't think there really is a "perfect" way to model it only what satisfies a particular player's sense of verisimilitude and campaign demands. YMMV.

[Guest random]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Um... Desolidification' date=' 0 End, Persistant, Only to Protect From Fire, 40 Points.[/quote']

 

(I hope this isn't a repeat of someone else's post -- I haven't read the whole thread. Apologies if it is.)

 

Well, that's 40 points, but then you have to buy everything else that affects other characters or the game world with +2 Affects Physical World -- unless you get GM's approval to elide that rule. That's discussed explicitly in the Only To Protect Against Limited Types Of Attack (-1) limitation on page 149.

 

Also -- any fire attack that Affects Desolidified will still affect the character.

 

I think it is a reasonable and cogent objection -- Hero is very badly designed if you want to define a character with any "absolutes." The vast majority of Hero powers that would otherwise provide something "absolutely" have an explicit exception clause. Like resurrection healing, for example -- a character must "define a reasonably common way to prevent Resurrection from working..."

 

Just my $0.02.

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

If I understand correctly, there are ways to get around the "absolute" Invulnerability in M and M too.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I don't know a game system in existence that doesn't have an "absolute" with an out clause. Magic Missile is the most basic and classic example of the "absolute" of always hits, and even it has the counter Shield.

[Alibear]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

If someone wanted to be immune to fire I'd advise him to buy 50 resistant ed witha -1 limitation, only fire and call it done.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

If someone wanted to be immune to fire I'd advise him to buy 50 resistant ed witha -1 limitation' date=' only fire and call it done.[/quote']

 

I don't know why everyone jumps to the "deslid handwave" for Invulnerability. I prefer the approach, also in FH, that works by having the character buy enough defenses to be immune to the highest attack of that type in expected in the game, with the GM setting that level. Having made that purchase (perhaps it's +50 rED, only vs fire), the GM agrees that no fire, however constructed, can ever damage the character.

 

And, if you don't want absolute invulnerability in your game, you don't allow this option. Just like you probably don't allow a character to buy 60 rPD in a 12 DC game if you don't want him to be functionally immune to attacks that work against PD.

[SteveZilla]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Taser Dart: 1 pip RKA' date=' +52 Stun Multiplier (+13) - 65 Active points, Adjust END cost/charges, range, and Focus limitations to taste.[/quote']

 

[Guy Fleegman] Oh *that's* not right.

[SteveZilla]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

....just as the British Police are about to train 30 000 officers to use them....sigh....

 

Interestingly: Met 'will not extend' Taser use

 

(/derail)

 

The MPA recognises the potential to cause fear and damage public confidence if the use of Tasers is extended to non-specialist trained police officers and is perceived by the public to be indiscriminate.

 

"Non-specialist trained"? How much training does it take to use a Tazer? "Pointy End Goes Towards Target. Pull Trigger After Shouting 'Stop!'" is too difficult?

 

Is this the opinion of the MPA alone, or did they actually do a survey of the (fearful, confidence-damaged) public to see if they actually share that thought?

 

(/derail)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

"Non-specialist trained"? How much training does it take to use a Tazer? "Pointy End Goes Towards Target. Pull Trigger After Shouting 'Stop!'" is too difficult?

 

Is this the opinion of the MPA alone, or did they actually do a survey of the (fearful, confidence-damaged) public to see if they actually share that thought?

 

(/derail)

 

Officers are "specially trained" to use guns, even though "pointy end goes towards target" is, technically, true for firearms of any kind. I would assume that being "specialist trained" would be more than 'how to point and shoot' instructions, most likely involving information on how the weapon works, how to judge if its use is appropriate, possible side effects (e.i. death, minor heart damage), etcetera; as opposed to, “here’s tazers for everyone, shoot it kind of like a gun, it’s non-lethal, so use discretion, but don’t worry too much about zapping someone.”

[Alibear]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I don't know why everyone jumps to the "deslid handwave" for Invulnerability. I prefer the approach, also in FH, that works by having the character buy enough defenses to be immune to the highest attack of that type in expected in the game, with the GM setting that level. Having made that purchase (perhaps it's +50 rED, only vs fire), the GM agrees that no fire, however constructed, can ever damage the character.

 

And, if you don't want absolute invulnerability in your game, you don't allow this option. Just like you probably don't allow a character to buy 60 rPD in a 12 DC game if you don't want him to be functionally immune to attacks that work against PD.

 

 

We had a guy in our game who wanted to play Mr Indestructible a guy who was the toughest guy on the planet. He spent so many points on being tough that he never had any points to do anything much in combat or anywhere else.

 

Basically any but the most thick and stubborn baddies learned to just ignore him. He played him for about 3 weeks before he got bored and had the GM kill him off.

[sbarron]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Then why really bother to use the Hero rules at all? You can make things up and guesstimate everything. Not being snarky but if you're just going to handwave any "complicated" effects why get into the rule set at all? Just decide how effective things are and set the price arbitrarily.

Because HERO mechanics do a great job of modeling 95% of powers, skills, and effects. However, the HERO system does not model the other 5% of powers, skills, and effects very well at all. Or more often, HERO can model an effect, but the build for that effect is too cheap or too expensive for the ability. GMs the world over already step in at that point and make a power cost what they think is appropriate for their game. This isn't really any different.

 

HERO has already begun to embrace the concept of just making things "cost what they should" when they added the divide by 3 or divide by 5 mechanic for spells in FH. Is making things "work" as they should really that different? Especially since we're only talking about a small subset of powers, skills, or effects.

 

I mean seriously...the speedzone? That's canon and makes sense, but this idea is somehow whack?

 

So what does it cost for a Champions character who wants to carry a Taser' date=' a Superspy who wants one from his Equipment Points or a Sci Fi Alien evolved from an Electric Eel who wants to generate the effect naturally?[/quote']C'mon. You guys are acting like this is a new cocept. The Champions character and Superspy would pay half what the Electric Eel does, because for them its an OAF. (OK, if you want to get really technical, I think most tasers only have 2 "charges," although each charge can be used on the target repeatedly once the barbs get in them. So, there's a limit in that somewhere, too."

 

I'm not saying that anyone should totally abandon the system, its premise, or its concepts. I'm just saying that there are a handful of things that HERO doesn't model well, and for those things, the GM can step in and make a power work the way its supposed to, and charge the PC an appropriate price, without getting bogged down in the mechanics that we long ago established don't really "fit the effect."