The thumb-lighter trick

[DataPacRat]

A mage-type character, with no related MPs, happens to be able to pull a classic mage's trick - he can flip his thumb from his fist, and create a small flame. Basically, he's got a built-in lighter.

 

Right now, the exact wording on the character sheet is:

[1] Thumb-lighter trick (Do I really need to work up stats?)

 

So, in case the answer is 'yes'... 1-pip No-Range RKA? Change Environment? Transform? What do you think?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

1 pip RKA no range, SFX: A small fire. Costs END.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

Heck, toss in Genstures.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

I would agree to the above if no one else in the campaign who isn't a mage has reliable and convenient access to a cigarette lighter, or some comparable device for creating a small flame, for which they pay no Character Points. If they do have access to such a device, then the mage's trick is just a neat gimmick which shouldn't be paid for with points either.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

A mage-type character, with no related MPs, happens to be able to pull a classic mage's trick - he can flip his thumb from his fist, and create a small flame. Basically, he's got a built-in lighter.

 

Right now, the exact wording on the character sheet is:

[1] Thumb-lighter trick (Do I really need to work up stats?)

 

So, in case the answer is 'yes'... 1-pip No-Range RKA? Change Environment? Transform? What do you think?

 

Assuming I charged at all, this is exactly how I would do it. Another way is the Power Skill, which I'm not a huge fan of, but it does have its uses.

[DataPacRat]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

I would agree to the above if no one else in the campaign who isn't a mage has reliable and convenient access to a cigarette lighter' date=' or some comparable device for creating a small flame, for which they pay no Character Points. If they do have access to such a device, then the mage's trick is just a neat gimmick which shouldn't be paid for with points either.[/quote']

 

As it seems to make a difference to at least one person trying to help out, the setting in question is modern-day supers.

[lemming]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

And here I was thinking we were opening a bottle of beer.

[Silbeg]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

A mage-type character, with no related MPs, happens to be able to pull a classic mage's trick - he can flip his thumb from his fist, and create a small flame. Basically, he's got a built-in lighter.

 

Right now, the exact wording on the character sheet is:

[1] Thumb-lighter trick (Do I really need to work up stats?)

 

So, in case the answer is 'yes'... 1-pip No-Range RKA? Change Environment? Transform? What do you think?

 

 

I guess my only question would be if he had other fire-based powers (spells). Assuming he has some sort of Power skill (Sorcery, Magic, Thaumaturgy, whatever...) I would let him do it as a cheap power stunt.

 

This is especially true if this is more flash than function... if he can light small fires with it (in a way that anyone else could use a match), I would probably just say he can do it, at worst requiring a Power skill roll.

[DataPacRat]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

I guess my only question would be if he had other fire-based powers (spells). Assuming he has some sort of Power skill (Sorcery, Magic, Thaumaturgy, whatever...) I would let him do it as a cheap power stunt.

 

This is especially true if this is more flash than function... if he can light small fires with it (in a way that anyone else could use a match), I would probably just say he can do it, at worst requiring a Power skill roll.

 

He has no other fire-based powers - if anything, he's an air elementalist. The metagame point of his having the thumb-trick at all are to demonstrate that he's not /just/ an air elementalist, and that he's at least trying to learn other sorts of magic, even if he's not all that accomplished in them yet. (I tried to think of similarly minor tricks for earth and water, but none appealed to me enough, so for now I've just stuck with the fire-based one.)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

Why has everyone leaped to RKA? I think that I might be more inclined to go for heavily limited EB (Fire) or a very small change environment.

 

A 1pip RKA would imply that applying it eight times to a normal human would bring to the point of death - I dont think that is an application the GM would like it to be considered for.

 

Doc

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

Why has everyone leaped to RKA? I think that I might be more inclined to go for heavily limited EB (Fire) or a very small change environment.

 

A 1pip RKA would imply that applying it eight times to a normal human would bring to the point of death - I dont think that is an application the GM would like it to be considered for.

 

Doc

 

In that case, perhaps one could add the Limitation, Real Weapon... or maybe "Real Flame." In the spirit of that Lim, the fire produced would be restricted in the degree of damage it could do (e.g. if applied repeatedly to a bare hand the hand's function might become impaired, but the person overall would be in no immediate danger of dying). The flame would also be easily snuffed by water, wind, or smothering agents; plus any other realistic drawbacks one could think of.

[DataPacRat]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

In that case' date=' perhaps one could add the Limitation, [i']Real Weapon[/i]... or maybe "Real Flame." In the spirit of that Lim, the fire produced would be restricted in the degree of damage it could do (e.g. if applied repeatedly to a bare hand the hand's function might become impaired, but the person overall would be in no immediate danger of dying). The flame would also be easily snuffed by water, wind, or smothering agents; plus any other realistic drawbacks one could think of.

 

Seems 'round about right - as does Gestures, suggested further above.

 

 

So far, for an RKA-based build, to bring it from 5 active points down to 1 real point, we need around -3 1/2 in Limitations, from which I'm ending up with something like:

[1] Thumb-lighter trick: RKA, 1 pip damage (5 active points), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Real Weapon ("Real Flame", -1/4), Increased END x6 (-2 1/2)

 

Or, if I want to toss in an extra point, we only need -1 in Limits, so the extra END isn't needed, giving,

[2] Thumb-lighter trick: RKA, 1 pip damage (5 active points), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Real Weapon ("Real Flame", -1/4)

 

Hm... RKA lets you spend fewer points to get less than 1d6 of that sort of damage; is it possible to spend even fewer points to get fewer than 1d6 points of EB?

 

I suppose the RKA could be swapped out for 5 active points in other powers: 1d6 Energy Blast, or 1" Change Environment, or 1d6 Cosmetic Transform... is there any reason to prefer basing this on another Power over RKA?

[ghost-angel]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

There's president for 1 pip Energy Blast for 2pts. in one of the books somewhere.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

There's president for 1 pip Energy Blast for 2pts. in one of the books somewhere.

 

And HDv3 too:

 

1 Thumb Lighter Trick: Energy Blast 1 point (standard effect: 1 STUN, 1 BODY), Penetrating (+1/2) (3 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4) 2

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

1 Thumb Lighter Trick v2: Energy Blast 1 point (standard effect: 1 STUN, 1 BODY), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1) (6 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x4 END; -1 1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4) 4

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

And the Rube Goldberg version:

 

1 Thumb Lighter Trick v3: Energy Blast 1 point (standard effect: 1 STUN, 1 BODY), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Sticky (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1) (10 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x8 END; -1 3/4), Side Effects (-1), Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), No Range (-1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4) 8

 

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

And the Rube Goldberg version:

 

1 Thumb Lighter Trick v3: Energy Blast 1 point (standard effect: 1 STUN, 1 BODY), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Sticky (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1) (10 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x8 END; -1 3/4), Side Effects (-1), Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), No Range (-1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4) 8

 

 

lol

 

I like the first of your three builds, but I have to ask, why use standard effect? The reason I ask is that it seems (how I’m reading it anyway) that standard effect will do 1 BODY. If you’re going to use that you might as well use RKA instead of EB. I think it would be funny (if somewhat annoying) to have to roll for damage. Have you ever tried to light a dry piece of paper and the match goes out first? Just a thought…

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

lol

 

I like the first of your three builds, but I have to ask, why use standard effect? The reason I ask is that it seems (how I’m reading it anyway) that standard effect will do 1 BODY. If you’re going to use that you might as well use RKA instead of EB. I think it would be funny (if somewhat annoying) to have to roll for damage. Have you ever tried to light a dry piece of paper and the match goes out first? Just a thought…

 

 

re: RKA vs. EB

It's a difference of a base 5 points vs. a base 2 points (before advantages).

 

re: match going out first

the skill roll and physical man. limitations are there for that.

the side effect is to simulate burning his own finger if he misses the skill roll.

 

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

Hadn't thought about burning himself. That's even better.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

I would not allow 1 point of EB to generate 1 BOD and 1 STUN when 1/2 d6 costs more and has only a 50% chance of generating 1 BOD. This is why 1 pip RKA is more expensive than 1/2d6 Energy Blast.

 

To the actual question, I lean to one of the following:

 

- Power Skill use for the Magic skill (given the specific example, it seems reasonable his skill is Elemental Magic, not Air Magic). This allows creation of any number of minor magical effects, including a flame that can light a fire but not hurt anyone. Really, we would have let the Ranger light a fire without anyone paying for anything, so why should the Wizard pay?

 

- a very inexpensive, highly limited power would be the next logical choice, but 1 pip RKA, STUN Multiple x1, only vs flamable materials isn't going to cost more than 1 point anyway.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

- a very inexpensive' date=' highly limited power would be the next logical choice, but 1 pip RKA, STUN Multiple x1, only vs flamable materials isn't going to cost more than 1 point anyway.[/quote']

 

"Only vs. flammable materials"... good call. I should have thought of that myself.

[DataPacRat]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

There's president for 1 pip Energy Blast for 2pts. in one of the books somewhere.

 

You see, /that's/ the reason I post to these boards: that's the sort of detail about the HERO system I was completely unaware of, and never would have known about otherwise.

 

Being able to build an attack-type power on 2 base points instead of 5 simplifies things enormously, and as much as I liked Hyper-Man's Rube Goldberg version, I think I'll just keep it as simple as possible, and hand-wave away any details as part of the special effects.

 

About the only other thing I can think of is... does anyone have an actual page-reference for the 2 point EB?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

The only thing I could was from page 114 ■ Character Creation: Powers Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

LESS THAN FULL DICE

As a general rule, unless the specific rules for an Attack

Power indicate otherwise, here’s what a half die of one

(or a single point of damage) costs:

If A Full Die Costs... Then A Half Die Costs...

15 points 10 points (or 5 points for 1 point)

10 points 5 points (or 3 points for 1 point)

5 points 3 points (or 2 points for 1 point)

3 points 1½ points (or 1 point for 1 point)

 

My guess is that HDv3 is applying the standard rounding rules to 1½ making it 2 points for 1 point instead.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

And like Hugh, I wouldn't allow a 1 pip EB to do any body at all, ever. It does a single point of Stun only.

 

Which is why I usually model a spark or powers like this one with RKA, it does a point of Body so it can catch inanimate objects which don't have Stun.

 

but, if all you ever light are cigarettes, meh - even 1 pt is sometimes more than I'd charge.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The thumb-lighter trick

 

To be fair, there are other differences between a 1 pip RKA and a 1 pip EB.

 

A 1 pip RKA is still killing damage by default

 

A 1 pip EB is normal damage by default so 1 Body and 1 Stun will do 0 damage to a normal person unless appropriate Advantages are applied as well.