Horror Hero: Handling SANity

[bcholmes]

The 5th Edition rule book makes a passing reference to SANity in the "extending the system" section -- suggesting it as an option for horror campaigns.

 

It feels to me like there are a few mechanics for handling fear and sanity in a Horror Hero campaign.

 

 

1. Fright Check

 

This optional rule is essentially the same as the Dark Champions "Grace under Fire" check. When a character has to make a choice to act in scary circumstances, they must make a successful PRE roll.

 

I think it makes sense to allow certain types of training to counteract the effects of fear.

 

Example:

FBI trainee, Clarice Starling has just realized that her interview subject is really the serial killer, Buffalo Bill. Buffalo Bill has raced into the basement of his house, where Starling assumes he is holding his latest victim: a senator's daughter. Starling is alone, with no back-up, and the killer is on his own turf. Starling is trained for this kind of situation (PS: Federal Agent), so makes a PRE roll using her PS as a secondary skill, and she rushes down the stairs after the killer.

 

Shortly afterwards, Buffalo Bill turns off the power, plunging the basement into darkness. This new situation calls for another fright check. Starling misses the roll by 2, and the GM declares that she's panicky. She has a -2 penalty on her subsequent rolls. Further, she's breathing heavily, which makes it hard to hear anything. And she doesn't know that Buffalo Bill has nightvision goggles...

 

 

I also think the game mechanic is useful in non-combat situations.

 

Example:

Starling has travelled with her supervisor, Jack Crawford, to Potter, West Virginia to examine a body. It's the first time she's dealt with a floater, and when the body is exposed for the first time, the smell assaults her senses. She makes a fright check, failing by 1 point, which gives her a -1 penalty to her subsequent Skill rolls while examining the body. Crawford notices that she's become unsettled.

 

None of these situations has long-term consequences. When the situation changes, the effects of a failed (or successful) fright check no longer applies.

 

Some games, like Call of Cthulhu, treat these situations as equivalent to other SANity rolls. For my part, I think that simple fear effects should have a different mechanic than the kind of sanity-destroying effects of encountering Great Old Ones.

 

 

2. PRE Attacks

 

Nasty horrors obviously use PRE attacks, as appropriate, to their advantage in combat.

 

PRE attacks are well-understood in the Hero rules. One suggestion for handling the SANity consequences of a PRE attacks is to treat SANity like one would treat impairment in the damage rules. Characters can be said to have a figured stat, SAN, which is calculated as INT + EGO + PRE. A PRE attack that exceeds a character's PRE has the normal effects of PRE attacks. But if the attack also exceeds the character's SAN, then the character might develop psychological impairment as a consequence.

 

If a character is affected by a PRE attack that exceeds her SAN, then she must make a PRE roll at -2. If the character fails this PRE roll, she takes on a temporary Psychological Limitation, typically informed by the circumstances of the original PRE attack.

 

If a character is affected by a PRE attack that exceeds twice his SAN (SANx2), then he must make a PRE roll at -4. If the character fails this PRE roll, he takes on a permanent Psychological Limitation.

 

 

3. Ambient PRE Attacks

 

The 4th edition Horror Hero sourcebook suggests that sometimes environments can act like a PRE attack. The sourcebook calls these "General PRE Attacks", but in my mind "Ambient PRE Attacks" are a bit more specific to environments that have are sufficiently horrific: the interior of the ship Event Horizon, or the "red weed"-covered terrain in The War of the Worlds.

 

Example:

George Lutz and his family have just discovered a secret room under the basement stairs. The room is painted blood red and has no doors or windows. There's something deeply unnatural about the room, and just seeing it has the effect of a 8d6 PRE attack against Lutz. The PRE roll exceeds Lutz's PRE by 20, and Lutz is awed into inactivity. All he can do is moan, "It's the passage to Hell!"

 

Like standard PRE attacks, Ambient PRE attacks can exceed the character's SANity, and cause psychological impairment.

 

4. Cosmic Horrors

 

As described in the 4th edition sourcebook, Champions in 3-D, some cosmic horrors cause madness just by looking at them. In these cases, the cosmic horror is built with a continuous Transform (sane person to insane person) such as this:

 

1.5d6 Major Transform, Affects Desolid (+1/2), 18" Radius (+1 1/4), NND (+1; defence is a successful EGO roll), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Always On (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4). Active Cost: 119 / Total Cost: 68

 

Example:

Gustav Johansen, a Norwegian sailor, and other members of the crew of the schooner,

Emma,

has accidentally unleashed the great Cthulhu. Simply being in the presence of a thing that cannot be described, Johansen and his shipmates must make EGO rolls to avoid going mad.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Impressive.

 

Most impressive. I'll think on this and see if I have anything to add, but at first blush it looks excellent.

[bcholmes]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Some characters are much more susceptible to psychological break-down than others. This can be emulated using "Physical" Limitations.

 

Physical Limitation:

Psychologically Frail: The character is more susceptible to psychological issues. The character should be considered -1 for Fright Checks and should be considered to have a SAN calculated as .75 x (INT + PRE + EGO). (Frequent, Slightly). -10 Point Disadvantage.

 

Physical Limitation:

Psychologically Very Frail: The character is much more susceptible to psychological issues. The character should be considered -2 for Fright Checks and should be considered to have a SAN calculated as .5 x (INT + PRE + EGO). (Frequent, Greatly). -15 Point Disadvantage.

 

Physical Limitation:

Psychologically Tenuous: The character is extremely susceptible to psychological issues. The character should be considered -4 for Fright Checks and should be considered to have a SAN calculated as .25 x (INT + PRE + EGO). (Frequent, Fully). -20 Point Disadvantage.

 

(These limitations assume a Horror campaign where scary stuff is likely to be Frequent).

[Nolgroth]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Nice. I like most of what is here, though I personally would limit Fear and Horror type reactions to Presence attacks.

 

For example, if somebody stumbles upon a corpse, it might be a simple 2d6 Presence attack. If that same corpse was hideously mangled I might bump it up to 3 or 4 dice. If that corpse was hideously mangled and still covered in fresh blood, I might make it worse. If it weren't a corpse at all (just mostly dead) and mangled, it might be an even higher attack. That sort of thing.

 

Psychological weakness would be simple Vulnerability. Again, a Common occurrence for a Horror campaign.

 

Temporary insanity is tougher. I suppose you could treat Presence attacks as sort of a Cumulative Transform that heals rather rapidly. Say Recovery per 20 minutes or per hour. That would help model the wandering through the woods, lost in a stupor, effect.

 

Long-term insanity would be a choice of the player that would earn some additional experience if properly played.

 

Overall though, I think your ideas are well done. Like Thia, I want to give this even more thought. Thanks for posting.

[bcholmes]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Psychological weakness would be simple Vulnerability. Again' date=' a Common occurrence for a Horror campaign.[/quote']

 

D'oh! Why didn't I think of that?!?

 

Thanks!

BC

[Nolgroth]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Because HERO is so granular that sometimes the grains slip between the cracks?

[bcholmes]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Because HERO is so granular that sometimes the grains slip between the cracks?

 

So few, yet how they creep through my fingers to the deep. While I weep!

 

BCing you

[Tandem Esk]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Excellent! Woo-hoo! :)

 

I can SO see using this stuff somtime!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

To build on the Lightsaber Messiah's point:

 

It looks very much like you're building from the Ravenloft model, and then blending in some elements of COC. As an adjunctive rule, the character can take Transform Damage as they fail checks. Then, since we're talking about gaining insanities rather than being a proper 'transform,' it's BOECV; it's an EGO transform instead of a BODY transform.

 

Brian clutched his Mogen David tightly, and the points of the star bit into the flesh of his palm. He could no longer tell if it was sweat or blood that made them so damp. With his back against the cold concrete basement wall, he took another muscle straining look around the corner.

 

It was still there. Still making breathing, still chewing. He heard a sharp crack, a grunt of exertion and then the sound of meat tearing from meat and hot blood sprayed across his face. He tried to suppress his scream of horror...

 

The player makes a Horror check, as the scene is quite grisly; Brian, the PC, is a Competent Normal for our purposes, but a professional public speaker; he has 12 PRE and 11 EGO. Normally, the base attack would be made by the monster (PRE 15, or 3d6) with the environment (dark & unknown; 1d6) the action being taken (eating a... well we don't know, but it's nasty; 1d6) and then the sudden physical reaction (the sound of the snap & spray of blood; 2d6). That's a 7d PRE attack against Brian's 12. My thought was this, depending on how complicated you want to get:

 

7d6 averages to about 24. There's no way he can survive that; it doubled his PRE score. My thought, then, was to count the Normal Damage BODY as part of the roll; that then counts as Transform damage. This is tracked over time; it isn't an instant effect, but it may need to be checked so if someone is getting beaten down they aren't a gibbering fool at the end of the game (although, you know, that could happen).

 

But it provides a solid mechanic that you can see at the time it happens, and then we (collectively) can put in things that 'heal' the Transform damage. If they beat a bunch of mooks and shut The Gate of Ebille, that's a Transform Heal. Making a clutch roll, that's a Transform Heal. I envision it being persistent, but not so constant that you become incapable of doing anything else. It's reserved for critical points (getting beat by double your score, etc.).

[Tandem Esk]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Thia Halmades, your scaring me! :shock:

 

 

In a good way.

[Kristopher]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Never really understood the whole "You go insane from gaining knowledge" thing. *shrug*

[Karmakaze]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Never really understood the whole "You go insane from gaining knowledge" thing. *shrug*

 

It's setting-specific. In the Cthulhu setting, the rational, consistent "reality" we perceive around us is actually a thin veneer over a horrible nonlinear universe. "Sanity" is actually a form of mass self-deception that allows us to function within that thin veneer without getting messed up by the nonlinear forces underneath. This is not necessarily true of all horror settings.

 

It's a little like the problem the characters had in the Matrix. Once you realize that it's all a simulation, you can do cool stuff, but it also becomes nearly impossible to really engage with the illusion anymore. It's just that in the Cthulhu mythos, what's really going on is even worse than the underlying reality the Matrix characters had to deal with.

[redner]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Never really understood the whole "You go insane from gaining knowledge" thing. *shrug*

 

Here's my $0.02:

The knowledge of the Mythos is really an illusion which fuels man's arrogance. Arrogance creates a feeling of worth. But this sense of worth is worldly based hence it's intrinsic flaw. Arrogance needs MORE "knowledge" to sustains it's illusion of worth. The truth of this knowledge is that it actually in time transforms a person's ego into a gateway for the Dark Ones come into our world. In other words, our knowledge-addicted arrogances bring Cthulhu into this world.

 

-

[Nolgroth]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Never really understood the whole "You go insane from gaining knowledge" thing. *shrug*

I would not model the "Insanity Because of Knowledge" concept. I just don't get it either. I see Fear rules and temporary insanity caused by shock and horror as a way to enforce genre conventions upon players that are kicking back with their Doritos and Super Sized Cola Slurpee and denying that their character would be affected by such things.

 

Outside of the Horror (meta)genre, this kind of rule has little place. I doubt that Batman would be more than mildy disturbed at such a thing, for example. The irony is that most players that are willing to play in such a game rarely need to have rules to enforce reasonable responses to unreasonable conditions.

 

Me personally? I would love to always have players act in "genre convention" as well as character. Problem is that we all have days that we would rather play something else. These kinds of rules help us focus how the character responds, even when the player would rather be hacking through Goblynz with his Flaming Sword of Ultimate Destruction. Sometimes all you need is a hook.

 

Back to the topic of modeling Horror/Fear/etc, Thia pretty well sums up my ideas. I do wonder if it is better to add more dice to the Presence attack or to create areas that act as Presence Drains. Probably much simpler to simply use extra dice as appropriate setting/situation. That way, they can be removed when the situation changes. One mechanic simplifies things a lot.

[Steve Long]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

See my HEROglyphs column in DH #36 for my take on this issue. Darren adapted one of those systems for use in the forthcoming Adventures In Darkness.

[nexus]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Lose of Sanity isn't going insane from "knowledge" it’s the character's mind cracking under the weight of knowing that reality is basically just a lie, the universe is a vast unknowable and ultimate hostile place where mankind means nothing, less than nothing really and is just fodder for forces beyond its comprehension if that much. You're doomed, everyone is doomed and there's not squat you can do about except try to get eaten last. All humanities great works are like dust in the wind and anthills compared to the real forces the drive the universe. Of course, it's setting specific and not true of all horror settings but that's how I always saw the mythos effect.

 

And, of course, finding out that the "things the go bump in the night" were –real- would be taxing on someone's nerves. Some would snap, others would adapt But some people live in a world of denial that anything spiritual or ineffable exists and being confronted with proof of those things could break them. That might be a bit much to model with rules though and would be a story choice for most settings, IMO.

 

The irony is that most players that are willing to play in such a game rarely need to have rules to enforce reasonable responses to unreasonable conditions.

 

Unfortunately that has not been my experience.

 

I've rarely had players willing to role play horror or fear regardless of character or genre even when they came into the game knowing it was intended to be classic Horror. I've long thought that is one of the issues that makes Horror a very difficult genre to game. Action Horror seems to be as good as it gets.

 

Didn't 4th Edition Horror Hero have some pretty extensive rules on modelling "Fright Check" style rules with Presence attacks?

[nexus]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Here's my $0.02:

The knowledge of the Mythos is really an illusion which fuels man's arrogance. Arrogance creates a feeling of worth. But this sense of worth is worldly based hence it's intrinsic flaw. Arrogance needs MORE "knowledge" to sustains it's illusion of worth. The truth of this knowledge is that it actually in time transforms a person's ego into a gateway for the Dark Ones come into our world. In other words, our knowledge-addicted arrogances bring Cthulhu into this world.

 

-

 

[Kristopher]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Lose of Sanity isn't going insane from "knowledge" it’s the character's mind cracking under the weight of knowing that reality is basically just a lie' date=' the universe is a vast unknowable and ultimate hostile place where mankind means nothing, less than nothing really and is just fodder for forces beyond its comprehension if that much. You're doomed, everyone is doomed and there's not squat you can do about except try to get eaten last. All humanities great works are like dust in the wind and anthills compared to the real forces the drive the universe. [/quote']

 

Perhaps this is getting into NGD territory, but besides the gibbering fiends, that's pretty much the real world that we actually live in, according to most physicists -- all of reality is doomed. This realization has not, in fact, driven most physicists insane, as far as we can tell.

[Kristopher]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Unfortunately that has not been my experience.

 

I've rarely had players willing to role play horror or fear regardless of character or genre even when they came into the game knowing it was intended to be classic Horror. I've long thought that is one of the issues that makes Horror a very difficult genre to game. Action Horror seems to be as good as it gets.

 

Didn't 4th Edition Horror Hero have some pretty extensive rules on modelling "Fright Check" style rules with Presence attacks?

 

As for me, I have no interest in playing a character who acts like a horror movie victim, but I'm honest about that and refrain from playing in games where I would be required to do so.

[nexus]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Perhaps this is getting into NGD territory,

 

Seems to be relevant.

 

but besides the gibbering fiends, that's pretty much the real world that we actually live in, according to most physicists -- all of reality is doomed. This realization has not, in fact, driven most physicists insane, as far as we can tell.

 

Well, as far I know physicists haven't discovered that universe is an actively malicious place run by unknowable god like beings against which we stand no chance and care nothing for us, that we can not in fact, understand that are coming to devour us all or at best, wash us away like ants when when someone turns on the sprinklers.

 

And this this is an inevitable fact.

 

There's an entire supernatural food chain and humanity is pretty much at the very bottom and there's Jack and Squat you can do about it aside from hope to be first eaten or last.

 

Could be a bit of downer in a way that entropy isn't. Or maybe I'm just sensitive.

 

But no, it's not going insane from learning, it's cracking under finding out the "Horrible Truth".

 

There's also finding out everything you know is a lie, a comforting falsehood meant to protect you from the a reality you can only barely conceive of. This to could be be stressful for some.

 

Of course, as was mentioned that outlook isn't intrinsic to horror but specific to the pretty morose mythos setting and it's imitators. Personally, I don't get into that style very much. It's fine a chance of pace but not every day. I don't seem the appeal of gaming in the setting but "doomed heroism" isn't a theme I enjoy in gaming. But I know some people that love it.

 

As for me' date=' I have no interest in playing a character who acts like a horror movie victim, but I'm honest about that and refrain from playing in games where I would be required to do so.[/quote']

 

Speaking for myself, when I run a Horror game all I ask is that the Player actually try to act like real people faced with an unknown and frightening situations. Not a bunch of guys hanging out in a well lit room, chugging sodas and munching doritoes looking at a battle mat or an action movie cliche. Actually, I ask that the player try to portray people and not playing pieces in any games I run not just horror but "action movie victim" by which I assume you mean "PIS" isn't required. Of course, some of the attitude that characters in horror movies are "stupid" comes from the fact people are thinking outside the world, in a no stress situation with audience perspective knowledge of what's occurring. Which isn't to say that there isn't a degree of lazy writing in horror but that's not all of it.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Speaking for myself' date=' when I run a Horror game all I ask is that the Player actually try to act like real people faced with an unknown and frightening situations. Not a bunch of guys hanging out in a well lit room, chugging sodas and munching doritoes looking at a battle mat or an action movie cliche. [/quote']Speaking for myself, I only run a horror game if all the players are enthusiastic about it. I may add horrific elements to any game, but that's mostly for flavor. I mostly look at a setting for a "horror" game in the same way I look at Shadowrun. In the same way that Shadowrun is Urban Fantasy with Cyberpunk elements, horror is not so much a "horror" game as much as a Pulp/Fantasy/Action game with horror bits added.

 

Almost all of my players over the years have been willing to give me the "my character recoils at the " reaction. In exchange, I hardly ever do more than inconvenience them within the scope of that reaction. Usually with a penalty to PER to detect the sneaking, slithering monster creeping up on them or a slight penalty for a couple of phases of combat. Nothing too over the top.

 

I have wanted, upon occassion, to run a full on Pulp Horror game or even Modern Horror campaign. I always come to the conclusion that sustaining any sort of horror/tension over the long term is just not possible. Eventually, the investigators would become adjusted to the reality of their lives and compensate for it. Similarly, inserting a horror adventure within an existing campaign is just as difficult. If there are no rules already in place within the campaign, suddenly dropping horror/fear checks is really a non-sequiter.

 

So the best I can come up with is either running horror as a one off or warning the players ahead of time that sometimes their characters will encounter things that shock and horrify them. Entering into a campaign with that contract in place allows you to occassionally spring something upon the characters without it happening so often that it is reasonable for a player to raise his hand and ask, "Shouldn't my character have gotten over his surpise at seeing the random corpse hanging from a meat hook by now?"

 

A tough thing to balance.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Speaking for myself, I only run a horror game if all the players are enthusiastic about it. I may add horrific elements to any game, but that's mostly for flavor. I mostly look at a setting for a "horror" game in the same way I look at Shadowrun. In the same way that Shadowrun is Urban Fantasy with Cyberpunk elements, horror is not so much a "horror" game as much as a Pulp/Fantasy/Action game with horror bits added.

 

Almost all of my players over the years have been willing to give me the "my character recoils at the " reaction. In exchange, I hardly ever do more than inconvenience them within the scope of that reaction. Usually with a penalty to PER to detect the sneaking, slithering monster creeping up on them or a slight penalty for a couple of phases of combat. Nothing too over the top.

 

I have wanted, upon occassion, to run a full on Pulp Horror game or even Modern Horror campaign. I always come to the conclusion that sustaining any sort of horror/tension over the long term is just not possible. Eventually, the investigators would become adjusted to the reality of their lives and compensate for it. Similarly, inserting a horror adventure within an existing campaign is just as difficult. If there are no rules already in place within the campaign, suddenly dropping horror/fear checks is really a non-sequiter.

 

So the best I can come up with is either running horror as a one off or warning the players ahead of time that sometimes their characters will encounter things that shock and horrify them. Entering into a campaign with that contract in place allows you to occassionally spring something upon the characters without it happening so often that it is reasonable for a player to raise his hand and ask, "Shouldn't my character have gotten over his surpise at seeing the random corpse hanging from a meat hook by now?"

 

A tough thing to balance.

 

I generally agree, which is why I actually favor the slow Cumulative Transform model. I actually use a "1 body Cumulative Transform Change Environment, Megascale, Requires PER roll from every target" build to simulate the real sanity blasting types of critters, but the system shocks can add to the same model. The new Disads granted don't have to destroy character concept... These are the Heroes of the story after all. But "Jaded" "World weary" And "Dependence: Addiction" are all perfectly disadvantageous without totally ruining the whole action hero vibe.

Look at John Constantine, for example.

[nexus]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

Speaking for myself' date=' I only run a horror game if all the players are enthusiastic about it. [/quote']

 

The problem is, at least IME, that sometimes players -say- they're enthusiastic about being a horror game, act psyched for it, listen to the discussions about mood and the themes and all the boiler plate. But it doesn't quite work out when the rubber hits the road. I don't make anyone play in games they don't want to play in but I am also not psychic. I've had a couple of groups (and a few more players) that were genuinely excited about playing in a "True Horror" setting. Others were expecting something more along the lines of The Hunter: The Reckoning video game or D and D in a modern setting. Perfectly fine game but not what was proposed or discussed and it would have worked better for all involved if they'd been more forthcoming from the get go. It would have saved everyone some time and effort and myself some frustration.

 

True Horror Campaigns work best, IMO, as closed stories with a set beginning, middle and ending or as survival runs. Extended horror is extremely difficult to pull off for the reasons stated. "Realistically" the characters would start to get hardened and professional, quit or completely snap (or some combination of all three) any of which would change the tone and mood substantially which isn't, in and of itself, a bad thing but can lessen the game. It also helps to keep the blood and gore to a low roar unless the goal is Splatterpunk, a few well described grisly scenes and horrific acts can go a long way.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

The problem is' date=' at least IME, that sometimes players -say- they're enthusiastic about being a horror game, act psyched for it, listen to the discussions about mood and the themes and all the boiler plate. But it doesn't quite work out when the rubber hits the road. I don't make anyone play in games they don't want to play in but I am also not psychic. I've had a couple of groups (and a few more players) that were genuinely excited about playing in a "True Horror" setting. Others were expecting something more along the lines of The Hunter: The Reckoning video game or D and D in a modern setting. Perfectly fine game but not what was proposed or discussed and it would have worked better for all involved if they'd been more forthcoming from the get go. It would have saved everyone some time and effort and myself some frustration.[/quote']

yeah, that does suck.

I really miss my old group.

I used to game with a nice crop of fellow Genre Fiends, which meant that whatever particular genre we'd decided on, the group would generally go all in.

it was nice, and spoiled me horribly in retrospect.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Horror Hero: Handling SANity

 

The problem is' date=' at least IME, that sometimes players -say- they're enthusiastic about being a horror game, act psyched for it, listen to the discussions about mood and the themes and all the boiler plate. But it doesn't quite work out when the rubber hits the road. [/quote']That does bite. At least my groups over the years have been honest with what they want out of a gaming experience. I think horror games work well as a one-shot or short series. Anything more and the players get frustrated at the apparent lack of progress within the storyline. It is sort of like a chocolate cake with heaping loads of fudge frosting; tasty but rich enough that too much makes you sick of it.

 

I do sincerely wish you luck with the whole horror gaming thing. When it all falls into place, it is one heck of an experience. For the record, I only ever ran one, single, dedicated horror adventure. Call of Cthulhu rules on Halloween 1989. Was an awesome session. Never have been able to replicate the feeling exactly since. Lots of success with adding elements to other games, just never able to do a "horror" game since.