Sean Waters Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Oh goody: more reasons to ge really upset about MPAs. You can do a KA and a move through together? Bah. You KNOW what we need: we either hit the horn (or rather it hits us) OR we ge barged by the rhino (very nasty but not going to get impaled) OR we miss (are missed). Lordy. That's not an MPA. That's a KA with some sort of lmitation on it that IF you roll (I don't now) more than 11 on 3d6 then it does normal damage of the same DC rather than killing damage. How do you do that? Some sort of -0 limitation, perhaps? BTW: limit the KA with reduced penetration: no rhino's running through tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions No, just give the horn the "Real Weapon" Limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions I don't think that's true. Velocity bonuses is exempt from the doubling rule (as are Extra DCs from Martial Arts). Mr. Gridlock cited the correct page regarding Velocity+Killing Attacks. Extra DCs from Martial Maneuvers add to KAs at half the rate but are not subject to the doubling rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions 3) I don't recall a bite-SFX ever having Restrainable (even in 4th edition) but I have often thought they should. The sample Lion and Black Bear in the 5E book both have it, though the Horse doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions The sample Lion and Black Bear in the 5E book both have it' date=' though the Horse doesn't.[/quote'] Yeah, but IIRC, nothing in the Hero Bestiary has it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions BTW: limit the KA with reduced penetration: no rhino's running through tanks. They can't. Even if it got the 5d6-1 attack I suggested, that's a highly unlikely maximum of 29 BODY, which couldn't seriously damage a tank (though it would put the hurt on an Abrams). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions I'll also point out that versus some WWII tanks, a rhino could probably wreck it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted January 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Indeed, enraged rhinos were often used by Rommel in the African campaign. No, really, it's true. I'm not making this up. I'm also wondering why the wolf has Nightvision, while the Werewolf has UV and IR, which is inferior from the POV of seeing in the dark (the wolf can see underground, which doesn't make sense now that I think about it). The lack of Discriminatory on smell actually makes sense from the POV of realism rather than rules, since in the real world even humans have Discriminatory Smell. I can tell the difference between fine home cooking and a pile of poo, thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions The lack of Discriminatory on smell actually makes sense from the POV of realism rather than rules, since in the real world even humans have Discriminatory Smell. I can tell the difference between fine home cooking and a pile of poo, thank you very much. Vestnik: There's a difference between discriminatory and Discriminatory. Anyone can tell the difference between food and crap. Not everyone can tell the difference between egg custard and rice pudding by smell alone, or for that matter the difference between walrus crap or sea lion crap (okay, maybe that’s getting into Analyze, but you get my point). In game terms every sense is considered to not be Fully Discriminatory, even sight. EDIT: Sorry, not sure why the font was so huge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Vestnik: There's a difference between discriminatory and Discriminatory. Anyone can tell the difference between food and crap. Not everyone can tell the difference between egg custard and rice pudding by smell alone' date=' or for that matter the difference between walrus crap or sea lion crap (okay, maybe that’s getting into Analyze, but you get my point). In game terms every sense is considered to [b']not be[/b] Fully Discriminatory, even sight. Naw, Discriminatory would let you tell walrus from sea lion. Analyze would tell you what it's made of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Thanks. Anyway, you get what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Is that an African or a European swallow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted January 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions I dunno. It seems to me that being able to tell sea lion crap and walrus crap apart is probably more a matter of skill than anything inherent in the sense of smell. I betcha that an Eskimo hunter can tell the difference, like a trained chef can probably tell the difference between the various puddings (not that I am either an Eskimo hunter or a trained chef). Smell is actually pretty good at distinguishing things. The human sense of smell sucks because it requires relatively large amounts of a substance or for it to be particularly pungent or close, not because it can't discrimininate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions They can't. Even if it got the 5d6-1 attack I suggested' date=' that's a highly unlikely maximum of 29 BODY, which couldn't seriously damage a tank (though it would put the hurt on an Abrams).[/quote'] Is an Abrams not a tank? I can't recall if this changed in 5ER, but according to FRED, a M1 Abrams MBT has 20 DEF on the front and 16 on the sides and back. I do recall that being bounced up to 30 on the front, and possibly 20 on the sides and back. If my recollection is correct then a rhino could certainly wreck a MBT, just not from the front. OK, probably too much Body to overcome in a single hit, so it won't be 'running through' the tank, but, really, this is in the realm of the ridiculous. (also 30 DEF is in the realm of the ridiculous - damn inflation!) The only way a rhino is going to cripple a tank is if it gets caught in the tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions In TUV, the M1A1 is 20 DEF with +10 DEF to the front. As for 30 DEF t o the tank being "ridiculous", I'll note that the tank uses a 120mm cannon firing DU rounds that punched through everything Iraq had (which was an assortment of T-55s to T-72s) with no problem. Then two M1A1s fired on each other, and nether did anything to the other as both shots hit the front armor. As I said before, treat the rhino's horn as a "real weapon" and you can eliminate it's ability to wreck certain tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gridlock Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions I agree with Sean about "stupid inflation." What protects the M1 is not pure armor, but also a form of (partial) Missile Deflection in that most rounds hitting the M1 do not do so at a perpendicular angle, but more of an oblique one which deflects a lot of the penetrating power. 30 PD is just insane. But this is where the relative degree of the hit should matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions I really don't see geometry being introduced more into combat than it already is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions I agree with Sean about "stupid inflation." What protects the M1 is not pure armor, but also a form of (partial) Missile Deflection in that most rounds hitting the M1 do not do so at a perpendicular angle, but more of an oblique one which deflects a lot of the penetrating power. 30 PD is just insane. But this is where the relative degree of the hit should matter. Or, the odd geometry is just being reflected as Special Effects of 30DEF, since Mechanically the tank isn't taking an action to Missile Deflect that would be an inappropriate Mechanic but a good Special Effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Give some of the DEF an Activation Roll, and only vs. ranged attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Yes, well, time for me to rant once more about the inadequacies of the Killing Attack mechanic. It might be just fine when dealing with targets with humans but it is nonsensical for armoured combat. If you know the gun and you know the range then you can say to a very high degree of certainty whether a given armour will or will not be penetrated. The Hero KA mechanic gives wildly disparate damage results because you are rolling a relatively small number of dice. Moreover, if a tank's armour is penetrated then the chances are the vehicle is finished. An Abrams has 25 Body, for goodness sakes. Best of luck... Now I don't know what damage a 120mm gun does in Hero, not having TUV, and maybe you do need 30 DEF to deflect it BUT that's only because someone has decided it needs to do that much damage in the first place. Because of the variability of damage we need to overprotect vehicles. I think we have our design considerations all wrong, assuming that our design parameters include a reasonable approximation of reality. One good way to make it right would be to require all real weapons to use standard effect, at least for Body damage. That way we KNOW whether a given gun will penetrate given armour, and everything can be calmed down a little. We also need some way to change the damage slightly with range: perhaps something like full damage up to 100m, then -1 per doubling (200, 400, 800) up to max range. That could also be incorporated as a real weapon limitation, but it is then doing an awful lot of a mere -1/4. Now I come back to making the rhino horn reduced penetration. It is not going to go through armour then. Simply calling it a real weapon works too, but I feel that is an arbitrary call, and I'd rather have more straightforward mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Yes, well, time for me to rant once more about the inadequacies of the Killing Attack mechanic. It might be just fine when dealing with targets with humans but it is nonsensical for armoured combat. If you know the gun and you know the range then you can say to a very high degree of certainty whether a given armour will or will not be penetrated. The Hero KA mechanic gives wildly disparate damage results because you are rolling a relatively small number of dice. Moreover, if a tank's armour is penetrated then the chances are the vehicle is finished. An Abrams has 25 Body, for goodness sakes. Best of luck... Now I don't know what damage a 120mm gun does in Hero, not having TUV, and maybe you do need 30 DEF to deflect it BUT that's only because someone has decided it needs to do that much damage in the first place. Because of the variability of damage we need to overprotect vehicles. I think we have our design considerations all wrong, assuming that our design parameters include a reasonable approximation of reality. One good way to make it right would be to require all real weapons to use standard effect, at least for Body damage. That way we KNOW whether a given gun will penetrate given armour, and everything can be calmed down a little. We also need some way to change the damage slightly with range: perhaps something like full damage up to 100m, then -1 per doubling (200, 400, 800) up to max range. That could also be incorporated as a real weapon limitation, but it is then doing an awful lot of a mere -1/4. Now I come back to making the rhino horn reduced penetration. It is not going to go through armour then. Simply calling it a real weapon works too, but I feel that is an arbitrary call, and I'd rather have more straightforward mechanics. I have to be at work in a half hour or I'd leap to the KA mechanic's defense, but I haven't the time. But I will say this, again.... Use Critical hits and consistent armor penetration benchmarks suddenly become nicely real world. With the addition of Piercing, you wind up being able to model heavy armored combat fairly well, speaking as the guy who used to play and run a SH campaign that at times included a lot of Hammer's Slammers style action. Random damage rolls represent variations in angle of impact, deflection, and all that other fun stuff. One thing we did use in our games was the advantage AP Capped, from the original GAC, which was a nice shorthand build for the "if it penetrates the armor bad things happen" effect, but that can be build in other ways under the current edition. Fox1 did it rather well, back in the day, before he bailed. I'd rather ask why supernatural creatures seem to be the only things that get Damage Reduction in their writeup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gridlock Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions You don't even need to fully penetrate the tank armor to stop it. Use a HESH round. Punching through armor is nifty to see, but you're really just trying to stop the people inside. The HESH round transfers energy through conduction to the inside of the tank where small pieces of the metal flake off (called spalling) and acts on an antipersonnel basis. It's kind of like teleporting a frag inside the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions You don't even need to fully penetrate the tank armor to stop it. Use a HESH round. Punching through armor is nifty to see, but you're really just trying to stop the people inside. The HESH round transfers energy through conduction to the inside of the tank where small pieces of the metal flake off (called spalling) and acts on an antipersonnel basis. It's kind of like teleporting a frag inside the tank. Spalling is best represented with Penetrating, and the reason it's not exploited more in modern warfare is because spallguards have become fairly standard equipment on armored vehicles. As an amusing aside, spalling and hull fragmentation is the reason why all the bedding on wooden ships was bundled and webbed to the inside of the hulls while at General Quarters back in the Age of Sail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Oh heck, just dust off and nuke it from orbit, that's the only way to really make sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrito Boy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Bestiar(ies) questions Oh heck' date=' just dust off and nuke it from orbit, that's the only way to really make sure.[/quote'] Nuke the tank or the rhino? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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