Lord Liaden Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Recently I happen to have spent a fair bit of time on the Champions Online website forums, answering questions and offering suggestions to people interested in the background of the CU, as a basis for their future MMO characters or just out of curiosity. The experience has really driven home for me how remarkably rich this game world has grown to be -- its breadth, its depth, its detail and diversity, yet also its coherence. Only the worlds of the actual, major comics companies, Marvel and DC, can match or exceed it in these areas. There have been quite a few other superhero game worlds published over the years, some of which have gained much notoriety, and deservedly so; but IME none of them offer as much as the CU. Now, I'm not saying that everyone should prefer the Champions Universe over any other. Many folks could legitimately prefer the style or feel of another setting. The CU is clearly patterned after mainstream Marvel and DC Comics, mostly (although not exclusively) as they were during the Bronze Age of comics; and some people may like their supers adventures to be more edgy, more innocent, or otherwise more unorthodox. Yet IMO mainstream comics have remained mainstream precisely because their style appeals to so many people. Not a bad precedent for a game you want to sell as much as possible. OTOH there are no few gamers who simply prefer to create their own worlds, who enjoy making original characters and establishing their own flavor of background. Many of our colleagues in this online community profess to that. Yet even those gamers often mine published Champions books for characters and concepts they want to adapt to their original campaigns. After all the years that Champions has been around, and all the creative people who have contributed to it, there's plenty of really cool stuff waiting to be adopted. Obviously the precedents for the Champions Universe extend back close to three decades now, and much of what was done before has been carried forward to the present day, continuing to infuse the Fifth Edition of the CU, and now the upcoming Sixth Edition and the contribution by Cryptic Studios; but before 5E the setting was rather incoherent, material having been written with little concern for how it would hang together. I have to give props to the staff and freelancers of the DOJ era for tidying the past material up, weaving it together with contributions from their own campaigns and imaginations, and turning it into a coherent whole. I may not agree with all their choices, but I can't deny that the result is logical and consistent. Occasionally the Champions Universe frustrates me, rarely it even disappoints me; but overall I admire it and I love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawksmoorSD Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Well said LL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightgoblin Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Very true LL. I'm glad I have gotten the chance to join in on the fun of the CU! I'm also looking forward to meeting fellow CU fans at DunDraCon:celebrate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe As a relatively new member on these boards I'd like to praise all those board members who always come up with great ideas and tons of inspiration! BTW Who invented Firewing? George MacDonald? Praise him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe i also concur with lord liaden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe BTW Who invented Firewing? George MacDonald? Yes, Firewing was created originally by George MacDonald. I think it was Scott Bennie's writeup of him* in Classic Enemies that first really fleshed out the basic character concept. *: Of Firewing, that is. George was already pretty well developed as a character back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Thanx for the kind words, folx! Getting to play around with and develop the CU is a helluva lot of fun. I'm looking forward to bringing it all together and updating it for Cryptic's vision after 6E is out. I think that since we now have such a huge amount of material in print to draw on, our next iteration of Champions Universe will be particularly meaty, useful, and fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Impudite Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Thanx for the kind words' date=' folx! Getting to play around with and develop the CU is a helluva lot of fun. I'm looking forward to bringing it all together and updating it for Cryptic's vision after 6E is out. I think that since we now have such a huge amount of material in print to draw on, our next iteration of [i']Champions Universe[/i] will be particularly meaty, useful, and fun. Yes, well, on that subject: I think I speak for a great many people here when I respectfully ask that, if at all possible, you eschew Cryptic's Steve Urkel Look-A-Like With The Festively Large Cranium in favor of the debonair, 5th Ed version of Menton that we all know and love. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Sorry, but that's absolutely not going to happen, unless Cryptic itself makes the change. It's their IP and their characters, and where they actively do something I have to follow their lead. Fortunately that leaves a lot of the sandbox to play around in still, since the CU as a whole is much more expansive than any MMO world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Heck, I still miss Menton's ethereal robes from Pat Zircher's illustration of him in Classic Enemies. IMHO when you think you're better than everyone else you should dress better, too. Especially when you can make everyone like whatever you wear. Cryptic appears to have made Menton a "bodyjacker," so he can probably confiscate an appropriately handsome corpus whenever he wants. Worse comes to worst, we can just declare his physiognomy otherwise for our own games. You know, that brings up another thing I like about the CU. Over its long publication history we've seen multiple incarnations of various characters printed, which if you have those books allows you to pick the versions you like best for your campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Or combine characters when it otherwise makes sense. Example: in our gaming group, we combined Gerhardt Spragen (from 4e Dark Champions) with Teleios - basically, just as Albert Zerstoiten survived WWII and became Dr. Destroyer, so too did his rival, Dr. Spragen, who became Teleios... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Or combine characters when it otherwise makes sense. Example: in our gaming group' date=' we combined Gerhardt Spragen (from 4e Dark Champions) with Teleios - basically, just as Albert Zerstoiten survived WWII and became Dr. Destroyer, so too did his rival, Dr. Spragen, who became Teleios...[/quote'] good idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Recently I happen to have spent a fair bit of time on the Champions Online website forums, answering questions and offering suggestions to people interested in the background of the CU, as a basis for their future MMO characters or just out of curiosity. The experience has really driven home for me how remarkably rich this game world has grown to be -- its breadth, its depth, its detail and diversity, yet also its coherence. Only the worlds of the actual, major comics companies, Marvel and DC, can match or exceed it in these areas. There have been quite a few other superhero game worlds published over the years, some of which have gained much notoriety, and deservedly so; but IME none of them offer as much as the CU. Now, I'm not saying that everyone should prefer the Champions Universe over any other. Many folks could legitimately prefer the style or feel of another setting. The CU is clearly patterned after mainstream Marvel and DC Comics, mostly (although not exclusively) as they were during the Bronze Age of comics; and some people may like their supers adventures to be more edgy, more innocent, or otherwise more unorthodox. Yet IMO mainstream comics have remained mainstream precisely because their style appeals to so many people. Not a bad precedent for a game you want to sell as much as possible. OTOH there are no few gamers who simply prefer to create their own worlds, who enjoy making original characters and establishing their own flavor of background. Many of our colleagues in this online community profess to that. Yet even those gamers often mine published Champions books for characters and concepts they want to adapt to their original campaigns. After all the years that Champions has been around, and all the creative people who have contributed to it, there's plenty of really cool stuff waiting to be adopted. Obviously the precedents for the Champions Universe extend back close to three decades now, and much of what was done before has been carried forward to the present day, continuing to infuse the Fifth Edition of the CU, and now the upcoming Sixth Edition and the contribution by Cryptic Studios; but before 5E the setting was rather incoherent, material having been written with little concern for how it would hang together. I have to give props to the staff and freelancers of the DOJ era for tidying the past material up, weaving it together with contributions from their own campaigns and imaginations, and turning it into a coherent whole. I may not agree with all their choices, but I can't deny that the result is logical and consistent. Occasionally the Champions Universe frustrates me, rarely it even disappoints me; but overall I admire it and I love it. I really should check those forums out more, but I'm shy. Suffice to say, I've got to concur with you. I'm really hoping the MMORPG uses certain things: Almost all the Hidden Lands (I love me some Empyreans) , The Braintrust, and, of course, Dr. Silverback. From Edition to Edition, the Champions universe has been an amazing collection of original creations, homages, twists on tropes, and more. I certainly hope Cryptic makes the most of it, and that it does well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybertooth Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Well said LL, and oh so true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Or combine characters when it otherwise makes sense. Example: in our gaming group' date=' we combined Gerhardt Spragen (from 4e Dark Champions) with Teleios - basically, just as Albert Zerstoiten survived WWII and became Dr. Destroyer, so too did his rival, Dr. Spragen, who became Teleios...[/quote'] For my own campaign I've blended elements of Teleios with Malachite, his 4E CU analogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Bah! Too much love and good will! *drenches down the thread with hatorade, scrawls "Teh Troll wuz Haer!" on the wall then vanishes into the night!* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Actually, I just had a Private Message discussion with one of our boardmates who has a very different perception of the 5E Champions Universe. I feel bad for him. I may have raised his blood pressure dangerously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Actually' date=' I just had a Private Message discussion with one of our boardmates who has a [b']very[/b] different perception of the 5E Champions Universe. I feel bad for him. I may have raised his blood pressure dangerously. what a clown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe Actually' date=' I just had a Private Message discussion with one of our boardmates who has a [b']very[/b] different perception of the 5E Champions Universe. I feel bad for him. I may have raised his blood pressure dangerously. What an odd thing to get so worked up about. I'm not a major fan of the setting myself (I do borrow from it) but it's nothing to get upset about. At least they didn't crash the thread with it. I was just trying to poke some fun at the tendency for positive threads to get 'crapped by haters. If I came across as threadcrapping myself, I'm sorry and I'll delete the post if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe The setting of the CU began to work for me with 4e's Champions Universe. I think it was a milestone and laid the basis for the 5e's CU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe What an odd thing to get so worked up about. I'm not a major fan of the setting myself (I do borrow from it) but it's nothing to get upset about. At least they didn't crash the thread with it. I was just trying to poke some fun at the tendency for positive threads to get 'crapped by haters. If I came across as threadcrapping myself' date=' I'm sorry and I'll delete the post if needed.[/quote'] I took your post as all in fun, and I certainly see no need to delete it. It just came at a topical moment. Things that some people take lightly, hold great meaning to others. I respect that. It's not like he declared a crusade against the CU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe I have my own issues with the CU, but most of them have to do with the tie-in to the larger Hero Universe. As a side note, I don't even find that tie-in to be entirely a bad thing; just aspects of it that rankle. So I adapt - I take from the CU and HU what I like, and substitute things I don't. It's a lazy way to get a setting that I like better than the canonical CU/HU without building it all from scratch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe My Champions Universe is different than the published version. With major changes to several Meta Plots and Character Sub Plots. Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe I do much the same as you guys. My version of the Champions Universe has a bunch of minor differences and a few major ones, with bits drawn in from other settings. I don't know about you, but I find the internal coherence of the CU and the HU make it easier to shift various elements around, and add or remove others. I can see how everything's connected, so I can tell where the changes will have repercussions. And elements of the official background have often inspired me to create new things based on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boll Weevil Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: In Praise of the Champions Universe In the last 10 years or so I have way more closely followed the story and goings on of the CU than i have any published comic book series. I have recently begun reading some Marvel titles again (and some older ones from Digital Marvel) but, for the most part, Hero has satisfied my comics jones. I have not had a local gaming group for 10-15 years but I continued to buy Champions supplements for the fiction. Keep up the good work. And Marcus Impudite, for me Menton will always look like the CKC illo which bears a striking resemblance to Tom Cruise in Magnolia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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