Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

How common is "common"? Looking at the 5er sidebar p 337, Code of Chivalry, Code vs Killing and Honourable (always keeps word; never takes advantage of a situation) are all considered "Common". However, it seems to me they may not be equally common.

 

PS: Another note for the RAW readers:

 

 

 

So a total CvK clearly is more than personal killing. But what's the pricing of that 10 point version? "Total Commitment" is worth 15 points minimum, so this cannot be a total commitment.

 

That's where the "Common Circumstance" comes in. If you take the 20-point CvK, not only will you not kill, you will not allow others around you (including allies and police, possibly even trying to get Death sentences commuted to Life) to take actions to kill and you will take actve measures to stop them. As oppose to "Uncommon Circumstance," where you measure your own attacks to the defense of the target - but won't stop an ally from vapoizing a villian. You may protest it, but it's his choice and you won't interfere - but you (depending on other psych limits) might well arrest him for murder afterwards.

 

The original (4E) Dark Champions had a great discussion on what the various levels of CvK meant. I'll have to see if I can dig it up and post it.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Under the same circumstances, I would vastly prefer the team TP to get the information his way. Torture is not something a hero should do lightly. But (and this depends on character psych limits and player temprement) it is an available tool, and sometimes we don't like the tools we have to use to get the job done.

 

YMMV, of course.

 

So mental torture is OK, but physical is not? Because rape is rape, no matter the method to me.

 

YMMV.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Who said anything about mental torture? Regardless of depcitions in various movies, there is no pain element in TP by the RAW! All TP does is read the information from the mind, so how does that equate to torture?

 

It's like 'torturing' a hard drive by installing it in a computer and reading the contents...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Telepathy isn't torture, by any stretch ( unless actually used to torture someone ). It *is* an egregious violation of privacy, however, so its certainly not something to do casually.

 

That said, when I think of "mind rape", I tend to categorize that as "forcing a person to do, or believe they are doing, something strongly contrary to their will and beliefs," or otherwise using telepathy as a means of psychological torture. Mind controlling somebody into surrendering, or falling asleep, isn't "mind rape". OTOH, forcing somebody to kill their own spouse and kids definitely is.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Batman doesn't have a CvK, but he does have the Psych Lim Loves To Hurt Criminals Common, Total for 20 points. The first 10 or so issues of Batman had him carrying dual .45's and killing the bad guys. This tendency to kill hasn't stopped him before and won't in the future. The thing that stops him from killing is the neurotic tendency to make the criminal feel the emotional pain he's feeling over the loss of his parents by beating the crap out of them and causing massive amounts of physical damage to a criminal. This can be written up as a Psych Lim of Criminals Must Feel Pain Over Loss of Parents at Common, Total Commitment for another 20 points. Killing the criminal sort of defeats the purpose of the neurosis since once they're dead they can't feel the pain he's suffering. In The Killing Joke and other trade paperbacks Batman has no regrets in killing anyone including The Joker. If a two bit hood bites the dust he rationalizes it away by essentially saying that they weren't the sort of criminal that deserves to feel his pain and Gothom is better off without them.

 

Those two Psych Lims make it appear that Batman has a CvK, but it's not a CvK and he shouldn't be considered to have it. The only characters that I can think of that would have a CvK is Silver Surfer and Superman. Superman is the ultimate boy scout and will not kill anyone nor allow anyone around him to kill. There were plenty of times when Batman and Superman had teamed up and it was Superman that stopped Batman from killing someone. There were, also, plenty of times when Superman would forcibly stop other supers that had no problems with killing from doing so. The other supers weren't in the position to tell Superman no under any circumstances. (Thinks of Green Arrow's attitude towards Superman in The Dark Knight Returns). Superman ripped off Green Arrow's arm after the registration act was passed in order to keep Green Arrow from breaking the law and Superman didn't exactly enjoy it either. The favor wasn't returned and Green Arrow hated Superman for the loss of his arm.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I would say that the Green Arrow incident downgrades Supe's CvK, because ripping someone's arm off can be fatal! There's some pretty major blood vessels in the upper arm, after all!

 

Besides, if Supes had time to rip off GA's arm, he had more than enough time to catch the arrow instead.

 

I'd put the whole incident down to bad writing and ignore it for justifying anyone's CvK.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I would say that the Green Arrow incident downgrades Supe's CvK' date=' because [i']ripping someone's arm off can be fatal![/i] There's some pretty major blood vessels in the upper arm, after all!

 

Besides, if Supes had time to rip off GA's arm, he had more than enough time to catch the arrow instead.

 

I'd put the whole incident down to bad writing and ignore it for justifying anyone's CvK.

 

Naw, Sups used his heat vision to cauterize the wound. No risk of fatality there.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Shock, then, could have killed GA just as easly. There was a case recorded in Vietnam where a chopper pilot was shot in the big toe and died within a minute from shock. Not from the wound, which was almost negligible. Not from blood loss, which was also minimal. From shock.

 

More to the point was the second part of that: If Supes had time to rip off GA's arm, he certainly could have intercepted the arrow instead - or blown it off course, or vaporized it with his heat vision... Supes has too many options to resort to that level of violence against not only a teammate, but a teammate who was a normal!

 

It was sloppy writing, that's all.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

More to the point was the second part of that: If Supes had time to rip off GA's arm' date=' he certainly could have intercepted the arrow instead - or blown it off course, or vaporized it with his heat vision... Supes has too many options to resort to that level of violence against not only a teammate, but a teammate who was a [i']normal![/i]

 

It was sloppy writing, that's all.

 

I believe you're misremembering The Dark Knight Returns. Superman had cornered the Green Arrow after Arrow went underground to avoid capture and ripped off his arm, in order to preserve the Arrow's life. Green Arrow was remembering what happened to his arm when he was lining up the shot with the green kryptonite arrow to shoot Superman when Batman was fighting him in the power armor and you never saw the actual flashback. It was just thought balloons over Arrow's head during the present events that the artwork was showing.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Never read Dark Knight Returns, not a big fan of Iron Age - much more of a Bronze Ager.

 

So how does one rip someone's arm off to save their life? Especially Supes, of all poeple? Surely the big blue boy scout had another option...

 

I maintain: sloppy writing.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Never read Dark Knight Returns, not a big fan of Iron Age - much more of a Bronze Ager.

 

So how does one rip someone's arm off to save their life? Especially Supes, of all poeple? Surely the big blue boy scout had another option...

 

I maintain: sloppy writing.

 

Well considering the choices given to Sups under the law it was imprisonment for Arrow or take his shooting arm. I'd say that Sups was rather lenient by removing Arrow's arm and left with no criminal record. The other choice was simply too harsh for Arrow since his next stop would have been to the federal pen for violation of the act and he put quite a few of the criminals in there.

 

If shock was such a big concern then Arrow had no business being out there as a superhero. Afterall, a superhero that couldn't take falling, beatings, and other job hazards without succumbing to shock would have ceased to operate as a hero a long time ago.

[Greywind]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Who said anything about mental torture? Regardless of depcitions in various movies, there is no pain element in TP by the RAW! All TP does is read the information from the mind, so how does that equate to torture?

 

It's like 'torturing' a hard drive by installing it in a computer and reading the contents...

Why does there have to be pain for it to be torture?

 

Everyone has skeletons hidden about their mind. Forced use of Telepathy is an unusual violation of privacy. Information gained by it, is automatically disregarded in legal situations as it is a violation of a person's rights of due process and it falls under "hearsay".

[Korvar]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Batman doesn't have a CvK' date=' but he does have the Psych Lim [i']Loves To Hurt Criminals Common, Total[/i] for 20 points. The first 10 or so issues of Batman had him carrying dual .45's and killing the bad guys. This tendency to kill hasn't stopped him before and won't in the future.

 

Not so. The character very quickly picked up a specifically stated code against killing. Not as in a Hero System Rules Disadvantage, but clearly saying that he will never take a life. Trying to extrapolate from the first ten issues of a 70 year publishing history is like claiming Superman can't fly, as he couldn't in his first appearances.

 

The thing that stops him from killing is the neurotic tendency to make the criminal feel the emotional pain he's feeling over the loss of his parents by beating the crap out of them and causing massive amounts of physical damage to a criminal. This can be written up as a Psych Lim of Criminals Must Feel Pain Over Loss of Parents at Common, Total Commitment for another 20 points. Killing the criminal sort of defeats the purpose of the neurosis since once they're dead they can't feel the pain he's suffering. In The Killing Joke and other trade paperbacks Batman has no regrets in killing anyone including The Joker. If a two bit hood bites the dust he rationalizes it away by essentially saying that they weren't the sort of criminal that deserves to feel his pain and Gothom is better off without them.

 

That's a fairly extreme reading of his character - he has been portrayed as anything from a dispassionate detective to an avenger, but I can only think of maybe two where he shows the kind of deliberate sadism you're claiming here. John Byrne had Batman musing that it was a pity that a particular thug was going to have to spend some time on crutches, and of course there's Frank Miller's "The other... hurts."

 

I think both of those portrayals are on the edge of the Batman envelope.

 

Those two Psych Lims make it appear that Batman has a CvK, but it's not a CvK and he shouldn't be considered to have it.

 

Other than the fact that he has stated he has it.

 

The only characters that I can think of that would have a CvK is Silver Surfer and Superman. Superman is the ultimate boy scout and will not kill anyone nor allow anyone around him to kill. There were plenty of times when Batman and Superman had teamed up and it was Superman that stopped Batman from killing someone.

 

[citation needed]

 

There were, also, plenty of times when Superman would forcibly stop other supers that had no problems with killing from doing so. The other supers weren't in the position to tell Superman no under any circumstances. (Thinks of Green Arrow's attitude towards Superman in The Dark Knight Returns). Superman ripped off Green Arrow's arm after the registration act was passed in order to keep Green Arrow from breaking the law and Superman didn't exactly enjoy it either. The favor wasn't returned and Green Arrow hated Superman for the loss of his arm.

 

Have the precise events that led to the loss of Green Arrow's arm in Dark Knight Returns ever been shown? I personally can't see how Superman would need to injure Ollie in order to bring him in. Superman has so many powers, and nothing Green Arrow could do could harm him. The closest I've seen is Green Arrow's death (he got better), where he had his hand on a deadman switch, and Superman offered to amputate his arm to save his life. Ollie refused. If there's more detail about what happened to the Dark Knight Returns version of Green Arrow, I'd like to know more.

[Marketeer]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

While Dark Knight Returns is considered very influential as a comic within the industry, I believe it is not canon by its nature of being set in a future timeline.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Marketeer, you are correct.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Why does there have to be pain for it to be torture?

Look up "torture".

 

Everyone has skeletons hidden about their mind. Forced use of Telepathy is an unusual violation of privacy. Information gained by it' date=' is automatically disregarded in legal situations as it is a violation of a person's rights of due process and it falls under "hearsay".[/quote']

An invasion of privacy is not the same as torture.

 

It is not clear if Telepathy would be an invasion or privacy in the real world. Here's an interesting 60 Minutes piece that addresses the problem. A key point in the piece:

Does submitting to any form of mind reading constitute a violation of your 5th Amendment right to refuse self incrimination? Taking your fingerprints and DNA does not...

 

Perhaps it would be best to create a different thread addressing this issue?

[Greywind]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Emotional pain is still pain, if you want to go that route.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

So if someone uses Telepathy on you and you don't know it, have you been "tortured"? Or is it only torture after you find out and experience emotional pain?

 

Either way, this is pretty much getting off topic.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

So if someone uses Telepathy on you and you don't know it, have you been "tortured"? Or is it only torture after you find out and experience emotional pain?

 

Either way, this is pretty much getting off topic.

 

like I said earlier...

A whole canyon full of worms.

 

I'd put telepathy at around the same point on the ethics scale as chemical interrogation, both of which are better options than torture for most situations, IMHO.

 

Neither are totally white hat moves, however.

 

To clarify my earlier posts, in regards to some of the comments... yes, torture is the impatient approach. In a non-time sensitive situation, or if other equally fast information extraction options are available, it wouldn't be my first choice either.

 

HOWEVER...

 

If time is of the essence and better options aren't available, I don't see the option as less heroic than letting the timer run out because you're too damn good to get your hands dirty.

 

And if the bad guy doesn't know what you need to know, or worse was only pretending to know for his own personal agenda....

 

Too bad.

Maybe next time he'll look at those missing fingers and question whether he really should be working for Viper on a "Need to Know" basis, or perhaps questioning if claiming responsibility for kidnapping and burying the kid when he didn't have anything to do with it was such a great idea.

 

If you're going to play with fire, be prepared to get burned.

 

Getting tortured still might well be preferable to a SWAT sniper putting a .50 BMG round through his shiny green helmet, a likely response if the costumed heroes hadn't shown up to take him prisoner with non-lethal force in the first place.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

If time is of the essence and better options aren't available' date='[/quote']

Not a realistic situation. But since HERO games are rarely realistic, it could happen in a fantasy that explores sadism. Game on.

 

I don't see the option as less heroic than letting the timer run out because you're too damn good to get your hands dirty.

Torture is never heroic. It is evil. It is wrong. Any "hero" who tortures to get information of any sort ought to be arrested by real heroes and put on trial.

 

Again, if you're playing a fantasy that wants to explore sadism as perfectly acceptable, more power to you. Naturally, your character shouldn't be put out when VIPER waterboards his grandmother to get info on the best way to take the hero down. Torture is just a dirty tool, after all, and easily excused.

 

And if the bad guy doesn't know what you need to know, or worse was only pretending to know for his own personal agenda....

 

Too bad.

That's sick. IMHO what should happen is that the torturer is put on trial, found guilty and put behind bars for a long, long time.

 

But whatever floats your boat.

[Greywind]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

So, rather than resort to intimidation tactics, shall we say...

 

"Sorry about the 500 people on that boat that blew up commissioner, but we caught a small fish to make it all better."

 

Not very heroic either...

[Marketeer]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

60 minutes piece that addresses the problem. A key point in the piece:

Does submitting to any form of mind reading constitute a violation of your 5th Amendment right to refuse self incrimination? Taking your fingerprints and DNA does not...

 

Perhaps it would be best to create a different thread addressing this issue?

 

There are significant concerns that would apply in the real world that would need to be examined, and they are more fundamental than just the right to privacy. And I do not think fingerprints and DNA evidence are properly analogous to Telepathy.

 

The notion behind the right to not self-incriminate can, I think, be summarized this way:

 

If I am accused of a crime, I have a right to say nothing. It is also not open to the state to compel me to provide information that helps it to prove its case against me.

 

Exceptions do exist, but they are generally very limited in scope and quite specific.

 

Using telepathy in the sense of "scanning your mind for the truth" runs directly afoul of the underlying principle, because you are compelling me to provide information that is against my own interests.

 

On top of that, there is a second concern: telepathy does not display direction to the judge or jury what I am thinking, a middle person has to tell the judge or jury what I am thinking. That introduces an additional level of possible error--both accidental and intentional.

 

This does not necessarily mean that telepathic evidence would be banned outright in a prosecution or civil case, but the basic structure of the legal system--particularly the criminal justice system--are such that there would be restrictions on its use.

[Greywind]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

The Corps is Mother. The Corps is Father.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Torture is never heroic. It is evil. It is wrong. Any "hero" who tortures to get information of any sort ought to be arrested by real heroes and put on trial.

 

Hate to break it you, chief, but no 'hero' as depicted in the nearly 70 year history of comics that's been semi-successful has ever been as 'heroic' as you apparently think they are.

 

Using force to get information, or the threat of, is a time honoured tradition in comics. Superman, Captain America, Spiderman, Batman, Wonderwoman, the Avengers, the X-Men... All of them has at one point in their canon used mental and physical trauma to save more lives.

 

Sadly, this means that none of them ever will truly be 'heroes'. At least by your standards.

 

Me? I'm more inclined into thinking that sometimes, the situation calls for desperate measures, and if you start to enjoying it, then that's when it's time to hang up the tights. Until then, do what you think you have too. After all, hindsight is twenty-twenty, but when it happens, time isn't on your side.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Hate to break it you, chief, but no 'hero' as depicted in the nearly 70 year history of comics that's been semi-successful has ever been as 'heroic' as you apparently think they are.

 

Using force to get information, or the threat of, is a time honoured tradition in comics. Superman, Captain America, Spiderman, Batman, Wonderwoman, the Avengers, the X-Men... All of them has at one point in their canon used mental and physical trauma to save more lives.

 

Sadly, this means that none of them ever will truly be 'heroes'. At least by your standards.

.

 

 

You keep saying that and its just not true unless you count Superman's earliest appearances where he's running around on rooftops with slumlords pretending to slip.

Even then,Intimidation is light years away from thumbscrewing and water boarding. I've read comics since the 70s and read many back issues besides but I'll admit I stopped during the "iron age" during which time your assertion might be true. My untainted heroes don't torture and by any sane definition all these characters pre iron with the possible exception of Batman/Wolverine they're still untainted heroes.

 

You seem to really really want everyone to be down and dirty with torture. When its considered bad in the real world how could it possibly be considered ok in the larger than life more heroic supers worlds? Iron age , maybe in many cases , but that's one reason I stopped reading during the iron age. I prefer my heroes morals etc not to be significantly inferior to my own.