Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Sadly' date=' this means that none of them ever will truly be 'heroes'. At least by your standards.[/quote']

Oh, I don't let it bother me. I know that comic books are fantasy. And I know that when superheroes torture people they're being anything but heroic.

 

That's cool. I like anti-heroes, too.

 

Me? I'm more inclined into thinking that sometimes' date=' the situation calls for desperate measures, and if you start to enjoying it, then that's when it's time to hang up the tights. Until then, do what you think you have too. After all, hindsight is twenty-twenty, but when it happens, time isn't on your side.[/quote']

Well, there's that fantasy thing again. As long as you're convinced that torture is a quick and useful way to get meaningful information, you're in fantasy land. Works great in fantasy stories. I'm all for it.

 

I just don't get it confused with the real world. Or real world ethics.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

If I am accused of a crime' date=' I have a right to say [u']nothing[/u]. It is also not open to the state to compel me to provide information that helps it to prove its case against me.

Right. That's that whole torture thing we've been talking about.

 

Using telepathy in the sense of "scanning your mind for the truth" runs directly afoul of the underlying principle' date=' because you are compelling me to provide information that is against my own interests.[/quote']

Nonsense. I'd be looking at your mind. You wouldn't be telling me a darn thing. Just as when I look at your DNA, you're not telling me a darn thing.

 

On top of that' date=' there is a second concern: telepathy does not display direction to the judge or jury what I am thinking, a middle person has to [u']tell[/u] the judge or jury what I am thinking. That introduces an additional level of possible error--both accidental and intentional.

Not a concern. Fingerprint experts and DNA experts (and all sorts of other experts) testify all the time. Judge and jury can't understand all the experts can. They trust the experts.

 

This does not necessarily mean that telepathic evidence would be banned outright in a prosecution or civil case' date=' but the basic structure of the legal system--particularly the criminal justice system--are such that there would be restrictions on its use.[/quote']

Perhaps. I'm not sure.

 

The U.S. has hired people to walk around airports trying to "read minds". They watch behavior and -- they say -- can spot a terrorist.

 

The U.S. fingerprints most foreigners on arrival. They could probably ask for DNA and -- why not? -- a quick trip through the Mind Scanner.

[Houston GM]

Telepathy and the Bill of Rights

 

Marketeer: If I am accused of a crime, I have a right to say nothing.

Utech: Right. That's that whole torture thing we've been talking about.

Marketeer: Using telepathy in the sense of "scanning your mind for the truth" runs directly afoul of the underlying principle, because you are compelling me to provide information that is against my own interests.

Utech: Nonsense. I'd be looking at your mind. You wouldn't be telling me a darn thing. Just as when I look at your DNA, you're not telling me a darn thing.

 

Utech, 5th Amendment goes well beyond torture. If I'm on a witness stand, I can use my 5th Amendment rights to avoid answering a question if the answer could be used to incriminate me of a crime. Nobody would be torturing me at that point, but I'd still have the right to not incriminate myself.

 

Furthermore, the Supreme Court has long established the Right to Privacy as one of our inalienable rights. Can you put together an argument explaining how Telepathy (looking at my thoughts) is anything but an invasion of my privacy at the most fundamental level?

 

A constitutional lawyer would have a field day with Telepathy.

[Marketeer]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Right. That's that whole torture thing we've been talking about.

 

I am having a difficult time navigating the quote tunnels due to weak HTML-fu, so I will focus on the above point.

 

The right to remain silent and the notion of not being tortured are not one and the same. Torture potentially violates more than just the right to remain silent.

 

Likewise, there are ways to violate the right to remain silent in the real world that do not in any way involve torture.

 

I realize your statement was intended as a joking one-liner, but it does not accurately reflect the issues we are discussing. I have not compared Telepathy to torture, I have merely examined some of the likely concerns that would arise if someone attempted to use Telepathic evidence in a modern "western" court, with the general laws of evidence as they currently stand.

 

Not a concern. Fingerprint experts and DNA experts (and all sorts of other experts) testify all the time. Judge and jury can't understand all the experts can. They trust the experts.

 

Here is an important distinction between the two above kinds of experts and the use of Telepathic experts:

 

Fingerprint and DNA experts--I will call them "physical evidence experts", in any given case, will be interpreting the same evidence. There might be a set of fingerprints, that everyone was lifted from say a murder weapon, and the various experts can all refer to that evidence. It is the same evidence, and everyone can draw conclusions--and rebut each other--based on analyzing the same thing.

 

That is not necessarily true for Telepathic evidence. Telepathy, as it is portrayed in comics and most science fiction, does not lend itself to recorded images. The different experts are not going to be using the same images from which to draw their conclusions. Different experts talking to different pieces of evidence mean they are talking past each other; it becomes impossible to critique bad methodology or errors.

 

Further, the evidence is not saved in a permanent format for later review, which is extremely important in criminal cases. The possibility of an appeal does exist, and if a court of appeal is missing evidence that the trial judge/jury had in front of them, it becomes very difficult for the court of appeal to evaluate the correctness/reasonableness of the decision drawn by the trial court.

 

DNA and Fingerprint evidence are not properly analogous to Telepathic evidence.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Leaving aside the entire torture question for a moment. . .*

 

I tend to think telepathic examination would be treated equivalent to testimony. Which is to say, 5th amendment protections would prevent telepathic examination from being admissable, unless it is voluntary. Which in practice, would mean the only time anybody gets examined before a judge would be if they are innocent, and request examination to prove it.

 

Given the potential for abuse, any unapproved telepathic searches would be treated as warrantless searches, and thus subject to the fruit of the poisoned tree principle. However, I can see there being a list of exigent circumstances exceptions, such as for the proverbial ticking time bomb scenario. In such, the telepathic evidence per se would still be inadmissable, but anything found as a result thereof would be.

 

*Now that I've finished that, a question: what should a hero do in the proverbial ticking time bomb scenario, when they don't have access to telepathy or such? Even in the silver age, you had people with time critical, life critical information who didn't reveal it without being roughed up or terrified.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

 

*Now that I've finished that, a question: what should a hero do in the proverbial ticking time bomb scenario, when they don't have access to telepathy or such? Even in the silver age, you had people with time critical, life critical information who didn't reveal it without being roughed up or terrified.

 

 

To me. cinematically speaking.torture is a level more intense than terrifying or even a little cartoon level roughing up where I have a problem is when you tie them up and start electroshock or snipping off figures not when you grab them and lift them off their feet or hit them two or three times.This is from a superhero / pulp frame were talikg here, fiction, larger than life and more virtuous is my desire.

 

So to my demented pulp influenced mind, roughing him up a little is OK but not a really brutal nearly beat to death thing or formal, I'm very skilled at it" torture.

 

If you knew where the bomb was but couldn't disarm it. Going with him to the bomb site and hanging out would be ok to if no martyr type is involved.. Lets the hero outcourage the villain and make him disarm his own bomb. Again we're talking pulpish cinematic situation. Real world heroes may often have to be more like Jack Baurer than Doc Savage but they also have to live with thenselves afterward.

[Vulcan]

Re: Telepathy and the Bill of Rights

 

Marketeer: If I am accused of a crime' date=' I have a right to say [u']nothing[/u].

Utech: Right. That's that whole torture thing we've been talking about.

Marketeer: Using telepathy in the sense of "scanning your mind for the truth" runs directly afoul of the underlying principle, because you are compelling me to provide information that is against my own interests.

Utech: Nonsense. I'd be looking at your mind. You wouldn't be telling me a darn thing. Just as when I look at your DNA, you're not telling me a darn thing.

 

Utech, 5th Amendment goes well beyond torture. If I'm on a witness stand, I can use my 5th Amendment rights to avoid answering a question if the answer could be used to incriminate me of a crime. Nobody would be torturing me at that point, but I'd still have the right to not incriminate myself.

 

Furthermore, the Supreme Court has long established the Right to Privacy as one of our inalienable rights. Can you put together an argument explaining how Telepathy (looking at my thoughts) is anything but an invasion of my privacy at the most fundamental level?

 

A constitutional lawyer would have a field day with Telepathy.

 

I'm not going to get into the arguements about how court-friendly information obtained by telepathy would be. However, in the aformetioned 'little girl buried alive' case I'm more concerned with saving the girl than the court case.

 

With any luck, the evidence unearthed (quite literally) with her will be enough to make the case - at least, in a world where TP is real.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

*Now that I've finished that' date=' a question: what [i']should[/i] a hero do in the proverbial ticking time bomb scenario, when they don't have access to telepathy or such? Even in the silver age, you had people with time critical, life critical information who didn't reveal it without being roughed up or terrified.

 

Either:

 

Keep your lily-white hands c;ean and let the bomb go off, killing however many people - an congratulate yourself on how you're 'still heroic because you didn't stoop to torture.'

 

- or-

 

Sigh, and get down to getting the informtation by whatever means are available. Since saving lives is ulimately the goal.

 

(And while I know which way I would choose - and that I slanted these options to reflect that! - there is really nothing wrong with choosing the other way. It's all a game, after all. This kind of conflict can make for some GREAT roleplaying, so long as everyone remembers it's just a game.)

[Marketeer]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Tying it all back to the original post for a moment:

 

So, if I interpret this correctly, Riot is willing to go to extreme lengths, up to and including crippling people, for information.

 

I suggest that while he may (or may not) be heroic, he is not innocent.

 

He has a 10-pt CvK to avoid killing except to protect innocents.

 

Am I correct in interpreting this to mean that, in a scenario where he and a villain are fighting one-on-one, and nobody else is directly engaged or threatened, that if it comes down to "him or me", Riot will not kill?

 

That is how I would interpret his CvK, based on the information provided.

[Greywind]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

All depends on the situation. If there is something more going on, then he may or may not depending on that something. If it is a matter of letting him go or killing him, what was he doing when he was intercepted? Does Riot have prior history with him?

 

Little things that may have an overall impact.

[Marketeer]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

All depends on the situation. If there is something more going on, then he may or may not depending on that something. If it is a matter of letting him go or killing him, what was he doing when he was intercepted? Does Riot have prior history with him?

 

Little things that may have an overall impact.

 

I am aware that those things would color the analysis: what I am driving at is that the CvK has to limit Riot at some point, and the "life or death 1 on 1 fight" is a relatively simple example of where it actually might come in to play.

[Greywind]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

One on one with no other considerations?

 

If he's losing, he my opt for lethal force. If he's winning, he'd probably opt for the "stop and turn over" option.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Sounds like he doesn't really have a CvK, or perhaps only a Marginal one. He may well have other psych limits, like "Protective of Innocents" or such.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

what should a hero do in the proverbial ticking time bomb scenario' date=' when they don't have access to telepathy or such? Even in the silver age, you had people with time critical, life critical information who didn't reveal it without being roughed up or terrified.[/quote']

The ticking time bomb scenario is, of course, fantasy. But that's what we deal with in our games, so it's certainly fair game.

 

I would bow to the experts on this one. And they say . . . don't torture. Doesn't work.

 

But if you want to go the 24 fantasy route, that's cool with me.

 

I guess we can extend the situation while we're at it, right? If torture is cool in a ticking time bomb situation, what other heinous crimes are OK? What if the only way to get the information is to cripple a baby? Rape a nun? Shoot the Pope?

 

These are nutty situations. Just as nutty as demanding that the only way to get the information you need is to torture someone.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Either:

 

Keep your lily-white hands c;ean and let the bomb go off, killing however many people - an congratulate yourself on how you're 'still heroic because you didn't stoop to torture.'

 

- or-

 

Sigh, and get down to getting the informtation by whatever means are available. Since saving lives is ulimately the goal.

 

(And while I know which way I would choose - and that I slanted these options to reflect that! - there is really nothing wrong with choosing the other way. It's all a game, after all. This kind of conflict can make for some GREAT roleplaying, so long as everyone remembers it's just a game.)

Or interrogate them without torture -- the way a real professional interrogator would do -- get the correct information, save the girl and be a true hero.

 

Of course, if you want to play a game in which the protagonists do very unheroic things, by all means torture away!

[Utech]

Re: Telepathy and the Bill of Rights

 

Can you put together an argument explaining how Telepathy (looking at my thoughts) is anything but an invasion of my privacy at the most fundamental level?

I've already suggested that folks take a look at the 60 Minutes piece. Please do, it will help to answer your concerns.

 

Just a few of the basics:

We're talking about a device that can read your thoughts. Results can be read in real time or recorded for experts (and non-experts, such as a jury) to look at. We have reason to think you committed a crime. We take your fingerprints and your DNA. We then put you in a machine and show you some pictures. The machine records what your brain does as you look at each picture. Some of the pictures are of the crime scene (or the victim or what-have-you). If you've seen the places before, we'll know that by what the machine records. If we find a hair at the crime scene and we get a DNA match with you, we'll also have some serious evidence that you were there. Likewise fingerprints.

 

Similarly, we could take anyone entering the country and give them a quick scan. We might show pictures or say words or something along those lines. The machine checks what your brain does and from those results we may very well not decide to let you into the country. Or flag you for interrogation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

One on one with no other considerations?

 

If he's losing, he my opt for lethal force. If he's winning, he'd probably opt for the "stop and turn over" option.

 

Sounds like "Code vs Killing unless it inconveniences the character". If I were the GM, my simple question would be "in what situations would this disadvantage the character significantly". So far, I'm seeing none, so that's the points I would award for the disadvantage. If he's willing to kill, he has no Code.

 

Just a few of the basics:

We're talking about a device that can read your thoughts. Results can be read in real time or recorded for experts (and non-experts, such as a jury) to look at. We have reason to think you committed a crime. We take your fingerprints and your DNA. We then put you in a machine and show you some pictures. The machine records what your brain does as you look at each picture. Some of the pictures are of the crime scene (or the victim or what-have-you). If you've seen the places before, we'll know that by what the machine records. If we find a hair at the crime scene and we get a DNA match with you, we'll also have some serious evidence that you were there. Likewise fingerprints.

 

Similarly, we could take anyone entering the country and give them a quick scan. We might show pictures or say words or something along those lines. The machine checks what your brain does and from those results we may very well not decide to let you into the country. Or flag you for interrogation.

 

It sounds like a higher tech lie detector. Evidence from same was acceptable at one time, and experts debated the evidence provided by the printed material produced by the machine. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph#United_States: "In 2007, polygraph testimony was admitted by stipulation in 19 states, and was subject to the discretion of the trial judge in federal court. The use of polygraph in court testimony remains controversial, although it is used extensively in post-conviction supervision, particularly of sex offenders."

 

If telepathy were provable, it would likely find its way into evidentiary jurisprudence.

[Houston GM]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Either:

 

Keep your lily-white hands c;ean and let the bomb go off, killing however many people - an congratulate yourself on how you're 'still heroic because you didn't stoop to torture.'

 

- or-

 

Sigh, and get down to getting the informtation by whatever means are available. Since saving lives is ulimately the goal.

Vulcan,

 

Why do you assume heroes are idiots? Are you absolutely incapable of figuring out other ways to find/disarm a bomb?

 

Gadgeteer: Build a scanner that can detect large concentrations of the primary explosive in the bomb. Use demolitions skill (or other skill) to disarm the bomb.

 

Mentalist: Read the villain's mind to find the bomb. Read the villain's mind to disarm the bomb.

 

Metamorph: Disguise yourself as the villain's boss, partner, accomplice, mother, significant other, spouse or child. Trick the villain into revealing the location of the bomb -or- convince the villain to disarm the bomb.

 

Mystic: Same as the Mystic -or- Create a spell to find the bomb. Turn the bomb into a turnip.

 

Skillmonkey: Use clues and good old-fashioned detective work to find the bomb. Use demolitions to disarm the bomb.

 

Speedster: Run to another city, pick up a friendly mentalist, bring him/her back to read the villain's mind. Use movement powers to take the bomb to someplace where the detonation will cause minimal harm.

 

 

I found six different ways to stop the ticking bomb without relying on torture. Why can't you think of one?

 

Have you ever been part of a game where the entire team was a bunch of combat monsters who had no skills/powers/special senses that would allow them to solve mysteries? I never have. Usually everyone can help solve a mystery (with, at most, one combat monster exception).

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Or interrogate them without torture -- the way a real professional interrogator would do -- get the correct information, save the girl and be a true hero.

 

Of course, if you want to play a game in which the protagonists do very unheroic things, by all means torture away!

 

The thing is, a proper interrogation takes time. Sometimes quite a lot of it. If I'm sure the little girl in question can spare the time, then sure, traditional interrogation methods are up first. Or we run down a telepath, or hypnotize him, or whatever.

 

But when the clock is almost down to zero, what then?

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Vulcan,

 

Why do you assume heroes are idiots? Are you absolutely incapable of figuring out other ways to find/disarm a bomb?

 

Gadgeteer: Build a scanner that can detect large concentrations of the primary explosive in the bomb. Use demolitions skill (or other skill) to disarm the bomb.

 

Mentalist: Read the villain's mind to find the bomb. Read the villain's mind to disarm the bomb.

 

Metamorph: Disguise yourself as the villain's boss, partner, accomplice, mother, significant other, spouse or child. Trick the villain into revealing the location of the bomb -or- convince the villain to disarm the bomb.

 

Mystic: Same as the Mystic -or- Create a spell to find the bomb. Turn the bomb into a turnip.

 

Skillmonkey: Use clues and good old-fashioned detective work to find the bomb. Use demolitions to disarm the bomb.

 

Speedster: Run to another city, pick up a friendly mentalist, bring him/her back to read the villain's mind. Use movement powers to take the bomb to someplace where the detonation will cause minimal harm.

 

 

I found six different ways to stop the ticking bomb without relying on torture. Why can't you think of one?

 

Have you ever been part of a game where the entire team was a bunch of combat monsters who had no skills/powers/special senses that would allow them to solve mysteries? I never have. Usually everyone can help solve a mystery (with, at most, one combat monster exception).

 

Why do you assume that I'm an idiot? I said, by any means necessary. If any of these means are available, then we try them. If we can think of any other ways (and our group is pretty good at it), then we try them too.

 

If none of them work... well, then someone might be in for a rough time.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

But when the clock is almost down to zero' date=' what then?[/quote']

 

Then you're going to have to work harder and smarter at your interrogating. 'Cause torture just won't work.

 

Again, this assumes that your game world is basically realistic. If you're really interested in sadism = heroism, go for it!

 

The problem as I see it is that a GM is putting players in a whacked out position. The GM is telling them that the only way to get the information is to do something horrible and clearly the opposite of heroic. Unless that's exactly the sort of game everyone wants to play, there should be no place for it.

 

Whether the GM tells me "There's no time, the only way to get the information is for you to pull his fingernails out, waterboard him, and apply electricity to his balls" or "There's no time, the only way to get the information is for you to rape a three-year-old repeatedly", I'm sure not going to think that my character is doing something heroic.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Vulcan,

 

Why do you assume heroes are idiots? Are you absolutely incapable of figuring out other ways to find/disarm a bomb?

 

Gadgeteer: Build a scanner that can detect large concentrations of the primary explosive in the bomb. Use demolitions skill (or other skill) to disarm the bomb.

 

Mentalist: Read the villain's mind to find the bomb. Read the villain's mind to disarm the bomb.

 

Metamorph: Disguise yourself as the villain's boss, partner, accomplice, mother, significant other, spouse or child. Trick the villain into revealing the location of the bomb -or- convince the villain to disarm the bomb.

 

Mystic: Same as the Mystic -or- Create a spell to find the bomb. Turn the bomb into a turnip.

 

Skillmonkey: Use clues and good old-fashioned detective work to find the bomb. Use demolitions to disarm the bomb.

 

Speedster: Run to another city, pick up a friendly mentalist, bring him/her back to read the villain's mind. Use movement powers to take the bomb to someplace where the detonation will cause minimal harm.

 

 

I found six different ways to stop the ticking bomb without relying on torture. Why can't you think of one?

 

Have you ever been part of a game where the entire team was a bunch of combat monsters who had no skills/powers/special senses that would allow them to solve mysteries? I never have. Usually everyone can help solve a mystery (with, at most, one combat monster exception).

 

Ah, but if those take more time than you have, what do you do? You're assuming you have more than a day, you have less than an HOUR, and you have no idea where to start looking, even if your Gadgeteer has all the parts he needs. Also, if the bomb is buried deep, you need to be able to GET TO IT. Now, which of these techniques will work?

 

The only two that might work are the Mentalist and Mystic, but then mental violation is apparently A-OK.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Then you're going to have to work harder and smarter at your interrogating. 'Cause torture just won't work.

 

Says who? A good punch to the face is just much torture as anything exotic you might cook up, and you know what? Dunking the guy's head in water for a few might just get him to spill.

 

Because if you don't have the time, if he doesn't break, then you're screwed no matter what, no matter any other method, he'd just stall until... *BOOM!*

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Again, this assumes that your game world is basically realistic. If you're really interested in sadism = heroism, go for it!

 

 

This statement is completely unfair. Common fiction, including so-called “realistic” shows, use the buried alive coworker/friend/loved one, scenario all the time, and more often then not are resolved with the “good guy” hitting the person to get information, even though it may damage the case or ruin their careers, in order to save more innocence. Pulp heroes have always “roughed up” villains to get them to talk. Almost every Superhero out there, including Superman, has done so. Cops in movies and television for the last 30 years or more have used force to get information in order to save lives.

 

Now I’m not saying I condone the use of torture, but saying that someone’s view is “sadism=heroism” when they are simply being true to the source material, is ridiculous. Remember, Hero is considered a “cinematic” game, not a realistic game, and this is a concept/situation that is extremely common in multiple genres.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Now I’m not saying I condone the use of torture' date=' but saying that someone’s view is “sadism=heroism” when they are simply being true to the source material, is ridiculous. Remember, Hero is considered a “cinematic” game, not a realistic game, and this is a concept/situation that is extremely common in multiple genres.[/quote']

 

I apologize for being simplistic. I agree wholeheartedly that this is a concept/situation that is extremely common in multiple genres. Regardless, torture is not heroic. That a character may torture someone out of anger, frustration, desperation, vengeance, sadism, or what-have-you should not be confused -- no matter the source material! -- for anything but unheroic behavior.

 

Of course heroes can torture. It means that they are engaging in unheroic (and immoral, and illegal) behavior. That adds complexity to their character. Just don't confuse the torture with the things they do that make them heroes.