Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Says who? A good punch to the face is just much torture as anything exotic you might cook up' date=' and you know what? Dunking the guy's head in water for a few might just get him to spill.[/quote']

A good punch to the face may qualify as torture. It does not always. Look up torture.

 

Dunking the guy's head in water (I take it you do not mean waterboarding, which is quite different than dunking a guy's head in water) will almost certainly result in false information.

 

Because if you don't have the time' date=' if he doesn't break, then you're screwed no matter what, no matter any other method, he'd just stall until... *BOOM!*[/quote']

I've got your point of view on this. It just doesn't agree with what professional interrogators have to say on the subject. The consensus is quite clear: you won't break him through torture.

 

If you're playing a cinematic fantasy where torture really does work, please enjoy. Just don't confuse it with reality or with heroic action.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

If you're playing a cinematic fantasy where torture really does work' date=' please enjoy. Just don't confuse it with reality or with heroic action.[/quote']

 

Most Heroes aren't professional interrogators. In fact, of them all, I'd say Batman is, and depending on who writes him this month, he may or may not actually use force to get his info.

 

You gotta make do with what you got, and sometimes it ain't pretty. But if you prefer your games to have a sort of Saturday Morning Cartoon vibe, go for it! There's no wrong way here, it's all a game and games are meant to be fun.

 

For me? I like to have some options that aren't always 'nice'. But then, I used to run Dark Champions games mostly, so I admit four colour or Silver Age or whatever, isn't my bag.

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

For me? I like to have some options that aren't always 'nice'. But then' date=' I used to run Dark Champions games mostly, so I admit four colour or Silver Age or whatever, isn't my bag.[/quote']

Fair enough. Let's let this one go, shall we?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

This statement is completely unfair. Common fiction' date=' including so-called “realistic” shows, use the buried alive coworker/friend/loved one, scenario all the time, and more often then not are resolved with the “good guy” hitting the person to get information, even though it may damage the case or ruin their careers, in order to save more innocence. [b']Pulp heroes have always “roughed up” villains to get them to talk[/b]. Almost every Superhero out there, including Superman, has done so. Cops in movies and television for the last 30 years or more have used force to get information in order to save lives.

 

Pulp heroes come from the 1930's, when it was considered acceptable police procedure to beat a confession out of a criminal. Times have changed, and that is no longer acceptable. Supers grew out of their pulp roots, so the older ones had similar morals early in their careers. We could pull a lot of other items from pulps and early Supers source material that would be considered inappropriate and unacceptable today. Consider depiction of non-WASP characters in such source material, for example.

 

Cops in movies and television, as well as those pulp characters, have not only used force to get information - they also shoot to kill when needed. A Hero with that Code vs Killing will not shoot to kill - there is a level of violence to which he absolutely will not descend - even when someone else may think such violence is justified and appropriate.

 

While it may appear in the source material, it tends to appear only when the hero is driven to an extreme - a point at which he has been pushed beyond his morals. It is generally recognized as "a mistake", something the hero regrets later. It's not a standard part of his makeup, while the thread title suggests torture as SOP for the character in question. And we don't tend to see the Hero tying his victim to a chair and beating a confession out of him.

 

I apologize for being simplistic. I agree wholeheartedly that this is a concept/situation that is extremely common in multiple genres. Regardless, torture is not heroic. That a character may torture someone out of anger, frustration, desperation, vengeance, sadism, or what-have-you should not be confused -- no matter the source material! -- for anything but unheroic behavior.

 

Of course heroes can torture. It means that they are engaging in unheroic (and immoral, and illegal) behavior. That adds complexity to their character. Just don't confuse the torture with the things they do that make them heroes.

 

Well said.

[Marketeer]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Based on the description in the first post, I think the character goes beyond "mere" torture as his SOP; he cripples people to get "cooperation".

 

I do think most characters in-universe would consider "inflicting pain" and "inflicting lasting and disabling bodily harm" to be different in nature. The fact that it seems to be something done with a certain degree of routineness, rather than "he was driven to it once by dire circumstance" adds another layer of overtone.

 

That is what prompted my question about whether this character would kill in self-defence if others were not threatened; how does he define an "innocent" for purposes of his CvK?

[BlackSword]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

An important question for the GM is "what kind of tone is he setting for the game?"

 

There is obviously a spectrum of opinions on the morality of using torture, but for the particular game being run the GM has to set the tone for what is acceptable for the heroes in regards to questioning suspects, and what crosses the line as unacceptable. The second responsibility the GM has is to ensure the information can be gotten in a way that does not require the players to cross the line*.

 

For the original post it sounds like people may need to sit down and discuss that the character is going in a direction they don't want to go and how to proceed forward.

 

*unless the game is specifically, what are the lines, and how are you going to react if your only choice is to cross them. But for such a game the GM should be more upfront about the game.

[Houston GM]

When time is an issue...

 

Dunking the guy's head in water for a few might just get him to spill.

 

Because if you don't have the time, if he doesn't break, then you're screwed no matter what, no matter any other method, he'd just stall until... *BOOM!*

Be a GM for a moment. Turn the situation around to see what the villain does. If you're on a tight deadline, the villain only has to withstand the pain for a short period of time. I've had stitches without aneasthesia before (in real life). I've also set my own broken bones (again, in real life). It's not hard to withstand pain for short periods.

 

But there's an even better anti-torture technique. LIE! The heroes waste time rushing off to the wrong location to disarm the bomb. By the time they discover their mistake ... *BOOM!*

 

if those take more time than you have' date=' what do you do? You're assuming you have more than a day, you have less than an HOUR, and you have no idea where to start looking, even if your Gadgeteer has all the parts he needs.[/quote']

I was assuming I had 15 minutes to an hour.

 

Gadgeteer or Mystic: Build your control pool correctly, and you can change your VPP in minutes, not hours.

 

Metamorh: Instant Change takes ... well ... no time. Finding out something about a person close to the villain ... you probably already have this information. You've obviously been investigating the villain enough to capture him.

 

Skillmonkey: You should be close to the information already. Your investigation is clearly going well enough to get you an important villain. Test his skin and clothes for chemicals and see if you can figure out where he's been recently. Or trace where he's been by hacking into his OnStar.

 

Speedster: A good speedster should be able to travel to a nearby metropolis, pick up a helpful mentalist, and get back to the villain in 30 minutes or less. If not, you need to build a faster speedster.

 

Mentalist: And this takes seconds to get the information.

 

Also' date=' if the bomb is buried deep, you need to be able to GET TO IT. Now, which of these techniques will work?[/quote']

If the bomb is buried that deep, I can forget about it. Have you looked at the rulebook to see how much DEF and BODY a few hundred inches of dirt has?

 

There's a reason that they put bomb shelters underground.

 

And are you actually suggesting that torturing the villain will help us tunnel to the bomb faster?

 

Why do you assume that I'm an idiot? I said' date=' [i']by any means necessary.[/i] If any of these means are available, then we try them. If we can think of any other ways (and our group is pretty good at it), then we try them too.

That's a nice way to try to spin-doctor your previous statement.

 

Does your team routinely "Sigh, and get down to getting the information" when they're doing detective-work? When they're creating a super geiger counter to detect fissionable materials? When they're researching a Transform Bomb into Turnip spell?

 

The phrase, "Sigh, and get down to getting the informtation by whatever means are available." sounds like a euphamism for torture to me.

 

Or maybe you just have a melancholy group of superheroes.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Let me just comment that the "What if he just holds out" or "What if he just lies" situations apply equally to any form of interrogation, whether involving pain and torture or not.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Fair enough. Let's let this one go' date=' shall we?[/quote']

Fair enough.

[Vulcan]

Re: When time is an issue...

 

Spinning it, Houston GM?

 

Let's go back back to the beginning of the exchange.

 

Now that I've finished that' date=' a question: what [i']should[/i] a hero do in the proverbial ticking time bomb scenario, when they don't have access to telepathy or such? Even in the silver age, you had people with time critical, life critical information who didn't reveal it without being roughed up or terrified.

 

The bolded part is the key to my position. No access to telepathy or such. So, looking at your latest post with that in mind:

 

I was assuming I had 15 minutes to an hour.

 

The only one of your assumptions that holds water.

 

Gadgeteer or Mystic: Build your control pool correctly, and you can change your VPP in minutes, not hours.

 

Assuming there is one on the team (and let's face it, these are specialist builds), and the GM allows VPP (some don't) or they allow a VPP that can be changed that quicky (some don't).

 

Metamorh: Instant Change takes ... well ... no time. Finding out something about a person close to the villain ... you probably already have this information. You've obviously been investigating the villain enough to capture him.

 

Our group has had two that can do this trick. Both are long retired as we got tired of the schtick. So we are back to 'assuming one is on the team.'

 

Skillmonkey: You should be close to the information already. Your investigation is clearly going well enough to get you an important villain. Test his skin and clothes for chemicals and see if you can figure out where he's been recently. Or trace where he's been by hacking into his OnStar.

 

What makes you think these tests can be done in minutes? In real life they can take weeks! And that assumes that the Skillmonkey is a Forensic Specialist or Computer Hacker, not a Science God (a la Reed Richards).

 

And what kind of villian drives his car to a crime? Hack his OnStar...

 

Speedster: A good speedster should be able to travel to a nearby metropolis, pick up a helpful mentalist, and get back to the villain in 30 minutes or less. If not, you need to build a faster speedster.

 

Aside from the bit about one not being available, you assume that all GM's would be willing to allow a speedster that can go that fast. Not all do.

 

Mentalist: And this takes seconds to get the information.

 

I believe this has already been covered, hasn't it?

 

That's a nice way to try to spin-doctor your previous statement.

 

The phrase, "Sigh, and get down to getting the informtation by whatever means are available." sounds like a euphamism for torture to me.

 

Yes, it is. And when we 'don't have access to TP's or other such solutions, (which was where this line of thought started!), well there you go.

 

Pleaser read the whole conversation, not just the part you want to use to make me look bad.

 

PS: Our current team has two bricks (one a 24 COM social goddess, one with 'Detect Lie'), one Power Armor social b*****d a la Iron Man, one 'Time Controller', one 'gun guy' with contacts, my reformed (sorta) villian who is a hacker from he!!, and one Energy Projector... who happens to also be a 'SkillMonkey speciaizing in Criminology and Forensics.

 

And there still came a point in the campain where everything else had failed, and the timer was running out.

 

So Vigil snuck the guy out and tortured the guy for the information. Not terribly heroic, to be sure. But the plot was foiled. (It didn't actually involve a little girl or a bomb, it was a wee bit grander in scale, but the point remains.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: When time is an issue...

 

What makes you think these tests can be done in minutes? In real life they can take weeks! And that assumes that the Skillmonkey is a Forensic Specialist or Computer Hacker' date=' not a Science God ([i']a la[/i] Reed Richards).

 

In real life, super powers don't exist. And torture doesn't work. Why are you prepared to waive real life for the first two, but not adopt the cinematism of the third? It seems pretty common in many genres for the brilliant skillmonkey forensics/criminology expert to make amazingly fast analyses and deductions which allow him to HEROICALLY solve the problem and avoid UNHEROIC measures.

 

While some of the solutions suggested rely on an appropriate character allowed by a GM, the "painted into a corner" scenario also relies on the GM painting the characters into that corner. "We can only win by stooping to a villainous level" is also driven by the gaming group and the GM.

 

PS: Our current team has two bricks (one a 24 COM social goddess' date='[/quote']

 

Genre standard - character's social skills are so overwhelming she is able to persuade/trick the information out of the target, or at least enough of a clue to solve the mystery.

 

one with 'Detect Lie')

 

Genre standard - he tells us a lie, the detector calls his lie, and he's sufficiently startled that his bluff was so easily recognized that he lets the full story, or at least enough of a clue that the mystery can be solved, slip.

 

one Power Armor social b*****d a la Iron Man' date=' one 'Time Controller', one 'gun guy' with contacts, my reformed (sorta) villian who is a hacker from he!!, and one Energy Projector... who happens to also be a 'SkillMonkey speciaizing in Criminology and Forensics.[/quote']

 

As noted above, super skill characters in this area tend to make very quick, very correct analyses when needed in the source material.

 

Whether time control or hacking can help depends much more on the specific abilities and the specific situation.

 

And there still came a point in the campain where everything else had failed' date=' and the timer was running out.[/i']

 

Above, I've identified three in genre approaches which could be workable within the plot hypothesized. Having none of them functional, but torture allowing the information to be accessed in time (neither "correct" nor "in time" screams "realism" to me) suggests to me that someone (the group as a whole; the GM specifically) wants torture to be "the only way".

 

As a GM, I can certainly devise a plot where the only solution is some heinous act by the Supers. I can just as easily devise a plot where the villains are far too powerful for the characters to defeat, or any number of "the heroes can't wil" scenarios. And a situation where the only solution is torture falls into the "heroes can't win" category, IMO, if we're playing a heroic fantasy.

 

I'd add one followup question: what were the repercussions of torturing the Bad Guy for information? "It worked, so it's all good" strikes me as a very unrealistic resolution, especially when the argument is that this was the only "realistic" alternative.

[Vulcan]

Re: When time is an issue...

 

While some of the solutions suggested rely on an appropriate character allowed by a GM' date=' the "painted into a corner" scenario also relies on the GM painting the characters into that corner. "We can only win by stooping to a villainous level" is also driven by the gaming group and the GM.[/quote']

 

That might be part of the disconnect here. What one GM does is not what all GM's do.

 

Genre standard - character's social skills are so overwhelming she is able to persuade/trick the information out of the target, or at least enough of a clue to solve the mystery.

 

Tried it.

 

Genre standard - he tells us a lie, the detector calls his lie, and he's sufficiently startled that his bluff was so easily recognized that he lets the full story, or at least enough of a clue that the mystery can be solved, slip.

 

Tried it, it comes with a (GM imposed, not purchased limitation) roll, he failed.

 

As noted above, super skill characters in this area tend to make very quick, very correct analyses when needed in the source material.

 

Assuming access to the full lab (law enforcement is not really friendly with any supers in our game), sure. When the GM rules otherwise...

 

Whether time control or hacking can help depends much more on the specific abilities and the specific situation.

 

Tried and failed - bad rolls by the hacker, the 'time control' guy couldn't go back far enough to 'watch him do it.' And if he goes forward to watch something (like looking for where the bomb is by seeing where it goes off) 'fixes' what he sees into the timeline (this is another GM imposed limitation).

 

Above, I've identified three in genre approaches which could be workable within the plot hypothesized. Having none of them functional, but torture allowing the information to be accessed in time (neither "correct" nor "in time" screams "realism" to me) suggests to me that someone (the group as a whole; the GM specifically) wants torture to be "the only way".

 

You have a distinct point here. The GM wants us to be 'silver age heroes' attemptiing to redeem the reputation of supers - but the Iron Age world we're presented with is very hostile to such characters.

 

As a GM, I can certainly devise a plot where the only solution is some heinous act by the Supers. I can just as easily devise a plot where the villains are far too powerful for the characters to defeat, or any number of "the heroes can't wil" scenarios. And a situation where the only solution is torture falls into the "heroes can't win" category, IMO, if we're playing a heroic fantasy.

 

Been there, done that, bought the crummy t-shirt.

 

I'd add one followup question: what were the repercussions of torturing the Bad Guy for information? "It worked, so it's all good" strikes me as a very unrealistic resolution, especially when the argument is that this was the only "realistic" alternative.

 

Well, it's not like I let him go once the plot was foiled... (did I mention Vigil was a sorta reformed villian?)

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Thinking about it, I'm just going to go ahead and conceed that the use of systematic torture to gather information as a tactic by heroes is going to be very GM specific.

 

However, I do note that (as has been metioned) 'roughing up the villian a little' is a time-honored tradition in the various source materials.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Thinking about it' date=' I'm just going to go ahead and conceed that the use of systematic torture to gather information as a tactic by heroes is going to be [i']very[/i] GM specific.

 

However, I do note that (as has been metioned) 'roughing up the villian a little' is a time-honored tradition in the various source materials.

 

 

Gotta go along with you on both points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Tried it.

 

Tried it, it comes with a (GM imposed, not purchased limitation) roll, he failed.

 

Assuming access to the full lab (law enforcement is not really friendly with any supers in our game), sure. When the GM rules otherwise...

 

Tried and failed - bad rolls by the hacker, the 'time control' guy couldn't go back far enough to 'watch him do it.' And if he goes forward to watch something (like looking for where the bomb is by seeing where it goes off) 'fixes' what he sees into the timeline (this is another GM imposed limitation).

 

You have a distinct point here. The GM wants us to be 'silver age heroes' attempting to redeem the reputation of supers - but the Iron Age world we're presented with is very hostile to such characters.

 

The problem here is neither realism nor source material. The GM has clearly decided that nothing else is going to work. So nothing else is going to work. The GM sets the tone of the game. If he wants silver age heroes, he needs to run a game where silver age approaches work.

 

Generally, the answer to "why do my players do X and not Y, even when X is in genre" is "because you reward Y and penalize X - your players aren't stupid". If young Kent Clarkson's career consists of:

 

refusing to kill the villain because it wouldn't be right, and the villain comes back and kills his friend Ross Peters,

 

and he still refuses to kill the villain because it wouldn't be right, and the villain comes back and kills his girlfriend Linda Lane,

 

and he still refuses to kill the villain because it wouldn't be right, and the villain comes back and kills his buddy Ollie Jameson,

 

and he still refuses to kill the villain because it wouldn't be right, and the villain comes back and kills his wife Lorene,

 

and he still refuses to kill the villain because it wouldn't be right, and the villain comes back and kills his boss, Wally Parsons,

 

How long will he keep refusing to kill the villain? How long do you expect a typical gaming group to stick to tactics that just plain don't work in the campaign? They either walk or they modify their tactics to conform to the game. If role playing a hero leads to role playing a loser, the characters stop playing heroically.

 

Well' date=' it's not like I let him go once the plot was foiled... (did I mention Vigil was a [i']sorta[/i] reformed villian?)

 

And none of the other so-called "heroes" ever thought to ask how Vigil got the information, or what happened to the source?

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

And none of the other so-called "heroes" ever thought to ask how Vigil got the information' date=' or what happened to the source? [/quote']

 

They asked. But Vigil has always been... secretive. Of course, if they had known his background they would have hauled him in...

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

But as you say, yes. The GM decides what works and what doesn't, and when torture is the only thing that he decides woll work quickly enough...

 

Well, there you go.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

When looking at the Batman character, it is always good to consider which version we are looking and who is the writer is.

 

The pre-Robin Golden Age Batman carried a gun and killed crminals. The Miller Batman from Dark Knight Returns actually does appear to kill once (shooting a punk who held a kid hostage) yet he "only" paralyzed the joker.

 

The most modern Batman I think has a CvK with ONE recent exception. In general, I've always seen Batman as a hero who CAN'T kill from a psychological POV. To him, killing is BAD. A bad man killed his parents and killing someone else would make him just as bad. It's why he alwys tells his partners, "if we kill we're just as bad as them." It's a very simplistic POV when you consider those who they face. It reflects IMHO a child's mentality.

 

In many ways Bruce hasn't grown up from being a scared 10 year old boy. Sure he's a tactical and scientific genius but he sees the world in black and white, can't hold a relationship together, and dresses up as a bat.

 

BTW, the one exception was when Batman shot in Final Crisis 6 Darkseid in order to save all of existence. That's the only modern day exception that I'm aware of.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

And given that Final Crisis was unmitigated crap, when it was comprehensible at all. . .

[Karma]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Or worse: "He still isn't talking. Heal him so we can do this again."

 

"Damn I shouldn't have hit him that hard. Oi medic... sorry Cleric raise him would you. Oh and you might want to heal him up a bit too so you don't have to raise him again."

 

Actually I have never been in a game with this situation: I have howeverbeen in this one:

 

Goblin: "I will never talk! There is nothing you can do to me that SHE will not do worse."

 

PC gives signal. Other PC chops other Goblins foot off. Other Goblin screams.

 

Goblin: "NEVER. NEVER"

 

PC: "Oh well. Kill them". Other PC does so.

 

The Players were a little put out that I considered this an 'Evil Act'.

[Karma]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

My view on the whole torture route can be summed up in the words: "How long have you been a witch"

 

Unless you are a total sadist you 'know' the person you are torturing has the information you want (you may be wrong, but you don't go to town on someone unless your 100% sure he has what you need (Sadism nonwithstanding).

 

If the person has the information:

He might give it up. Bully for you, although just so you know torture isn't actually as quick as people seem to think. Unless you have a way of keeping him conscious a great deal of time is spent waking the 'subject' up as he passes out (this is real world not 'comic book') In the 'buried girl' scenareo it is quite possible that she dies while you are trying to a) wake up the guy you sent into shock, stop the guy screaming 'STOP' at the top of his lungs, c) trying to keep the guy from actually dying himself.

 

He might tell you a bunch of lies (again with the girl) since he wants the little girl to die and he's willing to take anything you can dish out to see it happens. In fact he'll probably smile at you as you burst back in having found out he lied to you since he's now 'beaten you'. I mean this guy buried a litle girl, he's pretty much a monster.

 

He might even laugh between the screams knowing that the longer you torture him the less chance you have of actually finding the girl alive.

 

He might also not have the answer. In which case you waste your time and the girl dies. (either while your looking into the 'confession' he told you to stop the pain, or while he's insisting he doesn't know anything).

[Karma]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

The thing is' date=' a proper interrogation takes [i']time. [/i]Sometimes quite a lot of it.

 

You seem to be of the innacurate opinion (probably fed by T.V.) that torture doesn't take time. It does.

 

Quick torture session. Time is of the essence.

 

Take knife/cigarette/pain inflicting thing you have on hand. (Since you can't get any electrodes etc.)

 

Use on baddie (You pretty certain he's a bddie or you wouldn't be doing this (we hope)

 

Baddie screams. Baddie screams some more. Baddie continues to scream.

 

You: 'Tell me where she is and I'll make thje pain stop' (or something equally as corny)

 

Baddie continue screaming or possibly passes out from shock.

 

You spend quite along time repeating this process and the girl dies.

 

People just don't 'blurt out' pertinant information when you hurt them.

Some might, but heck threatening to hurt them will likely get them to spill.

Most will just scream and bleed and pass out. Some hardarses will be 'less' likely to co-operate if you hurt them since they now think you need to suffer to (and holding out is their way of making sure you do).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

You: 'Tell me where she is and I'll make thje pain stop' (or something equally as corny)

 

Baddie: "You'll just hurt/kill me anyway - I'll never give you what you want."

 

Now that we've established the questionable morals of the torturer, why should the baddie believe you're not as bad/worse than he is, so he has nothing to gain?

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Okay, guys, I've already conceeded that torture is only going to be effective when the GM says it is, and it's only a good option when the GM has stripped all the other options away.

 

What more do you want? If you want me to ignore the direction the GM wants to take with the game to fit your 'superhero morality' then I'm afraid you're going to be a bit disappointed...

[Cygnia]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Okay' date=' guys, I've already conceeded that torture is only going to be effective when the GM says it is, and it's only a [i']good [/i]option when the GM has stripped all the other options away.

 

What more do you want?

 

Torture the GM for putting you in that only option scenario in the first place?