Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I do find it interesting to hear 'Torture never works in real life,' when we're discussing a game where people can lift a battleship. And for that matter, a world where UNTIL is effective and not overwhelmingly corrupted. The bounds of real life are long gone in Champions, guys.

 

Sample power for the 60 STR Brick: Beat it out of you: 12d6 Telepathy, Mental Power based on CON (PD applies), Requires an interrogation roll.

[BlackSword]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I do find it interesting to hear 'Torture never works in real life' date='' when we're discussing a game where people can [i']lift a battleship. [/i]And for that matter, a world where UNTIL is effective and not overwhelmingly corrupted. The bounds of real life are long gone in Champions, guys.

 

Sample power for the 60 STR Brick: Beat it out of you: 12d6 Telepathy, Mental Power based on CON (PD applies), Requires an interrogation roll.

I think several people have mentioned the cinematic side of torture/interrogation. And while I might consider such a 'Beat it out of you power' for a Brick, said brick would not be a superhero in my games.

 

Ultimately it all comes back to what has been said, it depends on what tone the GM is going for. If beating people up is the best way to get information, then that is what the players are going to tend towards. If the GM doesn't want 'beating it out of people' to work, then he doesn't allow those techniques to work as effectively as the techniques he wishes to encourage.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I think several people have mentioned the cinematic side of torture/interrogation. And while I might consider such a 'Beat it out of you power' for a Brick, said brick would not be a superhero in my games.

 

Ultimately it all comes back to what has been said, it depends on what tone the GM is going for. If beating people up is the best way to get information, then that is what the players are going to tend towards. If the GM doesn't want 'beating it out of people' to work, then he doesn't allow those techniques to work as effectively as the techniques he wishes to encourage.

 

Fair enough.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I do find it interesting to hear 'Torture never works in real life' date='' when we're discussing a game where people can [i']lift a battleship. [/i]And for that matter, a world where UNTIL is effective and not overwhelmingly corrupted. The bounds of real life are long gone in Champions, guys.

 

Sample power for the 60 STR Brick: Beat it out of you: 12d6 Telepathy, Mental Power based on CON (PD applies), Requires an interrogation roll.

Well, as always with absolutes, torture does work, it just doesn't work reliably all the time and with all people.

 

Which is why acting solely what comes of a tortured confession and nothing more for corroboration is dumb both in game and in real life.

 

I think it comes down to perception.

 

If torture involves immediately jumping to crushing or nipping off or fingers and toes then of course the person is going to say anything to make you stop.

 

If it involves hours and hours of uncomfortable standing or other uncomfortable, draining, and annoying things over time then you more than likely have a good chance of getting them to tell you things when their resolve is broken. Which is entirely dependent on the person's level of resolve.

 

TB

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Baddie: "You'll just hurt/kill me anyway - I'll never give you what you want."

 

Wait... This I never get. Criminals are not that strong willed. Not in real life, and especially NOT in comics, so how in the HELL do people pull this lame ass stunt and get away with it???

 

Most people just want the pain to stop, they don't have the time to think the implications through, nor are they usually quick witted enough to lie about their intentions when faced with an immediate threat.

 

If your GM makes all the criminals and minor baddies this 'tough' then you have a BAD GM and you should go find a GM that supports your gaming style. And I'm not condoning torture, I'm talking a basic 'Dangle baddie over the edge of a building', or 'roughing them up to get them to talk', schticks.

 

Seriously, people go read some comics some time.

 

Now that we've established the questionable morals of the torturer' date=' why should the baddie believe you're not as bad/worse than he is, so he has nothing to gain?[/quote']

 

Interrogation IS torture. Deal with it.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Interrogation IS torture. Deal with it.

 

Only in the HERO skill definition. Deal with it.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Wait... This I never get. Criminals are not that strong willed. Not in real life, and especially NOT in comics, so how in the HELL do people pull this lame ass stunt and get away with it???

 

Seriously, people go read some comics some time.

.

 

Unless of course you have a religious fanatic or ninja in which in several genres they're often invincible vs torture or intimidation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Torture the GM for putting you in that only option scenario in the first place?

 

It seems like the only way. Even if it's not very heroic. And clearly it will work, since the GM wants torture to work.

 

Wait... This I never get. Criminals are not that strong willed. Not in real life, and especially NOT in comics, so how in the HELL do people pull this lame ass stunt and get away with it???

 

Most people just want the pain to stop, they don't have the time to think the implications through, nor are they usually quick witted enough to lie about their intentions when faced with an immediate threat.

 

How much empirical research have you done on the subject? "I can't tell you what I don't know" and "immediate lie saying what I think you want to hear" seem like equally viable choices. If the want to deal with willpower, did the answer you got from threatening torture represent the character caving under fear, telling you what he thinks you want to hear to avoid the threat being carried out, or a ruse to lead you in the wrong direction (maybe because he's more scared of "the boss" than he is of you)?

 

If your GM makes all the criminals and minor baddies this 'tough' then you have a BAD GM and you should go find a GM that supports your gaming style. And I'm not condoning torture' date=' I'm talking a basic 'Dangle baddie over the edge of a building', or 'roughing them up to get them to talk', schticks.[/quote']

 

As opposed to a "good GM" who forces the so-called Heroes to engage in torture? The focus of the starting post wasn't "I threaten him" or "I dangle him over the edge of the building" or any other "I use my PRE and the hint of violence to loosen his tonge". It was "I shoot him in the kneecap, point my gun at the other leg and ask my question".

 

Interrogation IS torture. Deal with it.

 

Interrogation doesn't actually include waterboarding as a standard technique.

 

Unless of course you have a religious fanatic or ninja in which in several genres they're often invincible vs torture or intimidation.

 

Yup.

[Karma]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

(maybe because he's more scared of "the boss" than he is of you)?

 

I have quite a few mooks with this problem. Thinks "Lets see I can hold out in which case you shoot my other knee. I can lie and tell you something that sounds plausable so you won't shoot my other knee. Or I can tell you the truth in the full knowledge that when the boss finds out I squealed he will have me skinned alive slowly in front of the other mooks as an 'example'. You know I'm taking option B."

 

Screams: "The bombs on the Docks" or something else he thinks you'll find plausable.

 

Actually quite a few of my Mooks are so scared of 'the boss' that they refuse to cave. Yes you can torture them, but you (hopefully) don't enjoy it and are, at worst, an enthusiatic amateur. 'The Boss' OTOH has spent years perfecting his technique and has been known to torture people just because he can. Also the mook 'knows' that you'll never beat his boss because no-one ever has, so squealing is just gonna lead to his boss getting angry at him when some incompotent fools arrive on his doorstep.

 

Then again I'm a 'BAD GM' who knows that the moment you allow 'the kneecapping approach' to work is the moment it becomes so routine as to be cliche. Funny how PCs always do the thing that works, no matter how 'unheroic', it's almost as if they can learn. (Then again my players tend to put pragmatism before heroism, at least in their portrayal of their characters).

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Then again I'm a 'BAD GM' who knows that the moment you allow 'the kneecapping approach' to work is the moment it becomes so routine as to be cliche. Funny how PCs always do the thing that works' date=' no matter how 'unheroic', it's almost as if they can learn. (Then again my players tend to put pragmatism before heroism, at least in their portrayal of their characters).[/quote']

 

So in your games even Batman would be ineffective at interrogating people?

[Greywind]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Batman kneecaps people?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Batman kneecaps people?

 

The "The Dark Knight" version does.

[Korvar]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

The "The Dark Knight" version does.

 

In the movie, he did it once, but I thought the point was that he realised that this was further than he wanted to go in future.

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

If even the most basic, simple thugs are willing to undergo extreme pain rather than talk, well, then simply dangling them off the side of a building isn't going to make much of an impression, is it?

 

So how does Batman do his impromptu interogations then? Obviosuly he can't, he'd need to drag the thug back to the Batcave and throw him in the Bat-interrogation room and play 'good-Bat/bad-Bat' and use other conventional interrrogation techniques until the guy finally cracks.

 

In the meantime, Supes just sweeps the city with his x-Ray vision and takes care of the problem himself. "So, Bats, what kept you?"

 

Thugs should generally crack when threatened. It's in-genre for the detective characters to threaten thugs, then the thugs crack so the character doesn't have to follow up on the threats. It is demonstrated countless times in comic books, even through the Silver Age!

[Utech]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I was really hoping that I was out of this thread, but I find myself getting pulled back in...

Thugs should generally crack when threatened. It's in-genre for the detective characters to threaten thugs' date=' then the thugs crack so the character doesn't have to follow up on the threats. It is demonstrated countless times in comic books, even through the Silver Age![/quote']

Threats are generally not torture. I've said it before, and it seems I must say it again, please look up the definition of torture.

 

While you are at it, please understand that torture is a war crime. A crime so horrible that -- following U.S. leadership -- more than 140 countries have agreed that it must be investigated and must be prosecuted no matter where it takes place in the world. Furthermore they have agreed that there is no excuse for torture. None. (Ticking time bomb included.)

 

While it is certainly in genre for heroes to be tempted to commit torture, torture is never heroic.

 

When Batman tortures a criminal for information he is not being heroic. That makes him complex and interesting because in other ways he is heroic. The unrealistic aspect of torture in Batman is twofold:

1) it seems to work fairly often. In real life it does not.

Note: Despite protests to the contrary, useful information gained through torture at Guantanamo Bay seems to be zero. Useful information gained through talking to Saddam Hussein, on the other hand, was copious.

2) other heroes and government bodies seem to turn a blind eye to Batman's torture. In real life this should not happen.

Note: The U.S. Department of Justice, justice departments around the world, and the UN are all looking into torture at Guantanamo Bay. It seems quite likely that senior Bush administration officials are in real legal jeopardy both at home and abroad.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I've played (and encouraged others to play) "Good cop, bad cop, telepathic cop". Bad cop makes threats, good cop makes offers, telepath in room next door gets information.

 

The genre also matters: in a Dark Champions campaign, such things as threatening kneecaps are the norm. In a 4 color campaign, no.

 

With a 20 point code vs killing, the character isn't going to do it, and will discourage others from doing it.

 

Batman doesn't break a lot of kneecaps. He doesn't have to. He has the reputation of being merciless, and so doesn't have to be merciless. He can hang a person by a rope over the edge of a 40 story fall and they'll talk, because he has the reputation of letting people fall, *even though he's never actually done it!* (Reputation: Ruthless Vigilante, +10 presense attacks vs lawbreakers, +5 to presense based skills)

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Unless of course you have a religious fanatic or ninja in which in several genres they're often invincible vs torture or intimidation.

 

These should be rare and only in genre for certain types of villains.

 

So in your games even Batman would be ineffective at interrogating people?

 

And the sad part, he usually hangs them from high places as his method of 'torture/interrogation'.

 

The problem I see here is that people aren't always drawing a line at genre emulation and what THEY'D like to do when faced with a certain situation. Also, most 'Bosses' don't have the means to really scare their minions into not revealing anything.

 

Of course, I once had an Anti-Hero type of character once mention to the captured mook that it really didn't matter whether or not he talked. His BOSS will think he did and kill him anyway, however, if he did talk, then there's a chance he'll get to live longer because the Boss won't have time to think about who squealed.

 

My GM thought it was good enough, and it worked. My Anti-Hero never touched the guy outside of binding him to a chair, but I still see it as 'torture'.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I've played (and encouraged others to play) "Good cop, bad cop, telepathic cop". Bad cop makes threats, good cop makes offers, telepath in room next door gets information.

 

The genre also matters: in a Dark Champions campaign, such things as threatening kneecaps are the norm. In a 4 color campaign, no.

 

With a 20 point code vs killing, the character isn't going to do it, and will discourage others from doing it.

 

Batman doesn't break a lot of kneecaps. He doesn't have to. He has the reputation of being merciless, and so doesn't have to be merciless. He can hang a person by a rope over the edge of a 40 story fall and they'll talk, because he has the reputation of letting people fall, *even though he's never actually done it!* (Reputation: Ruthless Vigilante, +10 presense attacks vs lawbreakers, +5 to presense based skills)

 

ACTUALLY, he HAS. But NEVER to their death, it's still enough to break the hardest of men. Saying is one thing, but if the guy seems to REALLY mean it, very few thugs and goons (Cowards to begin with) will want to test the theory.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

These should be rare and only in genre for certain types of villains.

 

 

 

And the sad part, he usually hangs them from high places as his method of 'torture/interrogation'.

 

The problem I see here is that people aren't always drawing a line at genre emulation and what THEY'D like to do when faced with a certain situation. Also, most 'Bosses' don't have the means to really scare their minions into not revealing anything.

 

Of course, I once had an Anti-Hero type of character once mention to the captured mook that it really didn't matter whether or not he talked. His BOSS will think he did and kill him anyway, however, if he did talk, then there's a chance he'll get to live longer because the Boss won't have time to think about who squealed.

 

My GM thought it was good enough, and it worked. My Anti-Hero never touched the guy outside of binding him to a chair, but I still see it as 'torture'.

Then you should read a dictionary on what exactly the definition of torture is, because that isn't it.

 

Which goes the same for 'heroic' and 'interogation', because it is pretty clear from this thread that many of you don't know what those words really mean and are just imposing your visions of what they should mean on the rest of us in this conversation.

 

TB

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Since people seem to fall back on “your definition of ‘X’ is wrong” as an argument, without actually providing definitions, here…

 

From Dictionary.com:

torture - 6 dictionary results

tor⋅ture

   ˈtɔr tʃərShow Spelled Pronunciation [tawr-cher] Show IPA Pronunciation

noun, verb, -tured, -tur⋅ing.

–noun

1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

2. a method of inflicting such pain.

3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.

4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.

5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.

–verb (used with object)

6. to subject to torture.

7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.

8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!

9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.

10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).

 

in⋅ter⋅ro⋅ga⋅tion

   ɪnˌtɛr əˈgeɪ ʃənShow Spelled Pronunciation [in-ter-uh-gey-shuh n] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. the act of interrogating; questioning.

2. an instance of being interrogated: He seemed shaken after his interrogation.

3. a question; inquiry.

4. a written list of questions.

5. an interrogation point; question mark.

 

in⋅ter⋅ro⋅gate

   ɪnˈtɛr əˌgeɪtShow Spelled Pronunciation [in-ter-uh-geyt] Show IPA Pronunciation

verb, -gat⋅ed, -gat⋅ing.

–verb (used with object)

1. to ask questions of (a person), sometimes to seek answers or information that the person questioned considers personal or secret.

2. to examine by questions; question formally: The police captain interrogated the suspect.

–verb (used without object)

3. to ask questions, esp. formally or officially: the right to interrogate.

 

he⋅ro⋅ic

   hɪˈroʊ ɪkShow Spelled Pronunciation [hi-roh-ik] Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective

1. Also, he⋅ro⋅i⋅cal. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a hero or heroine.

2. suitable to the character of a hero in size or concept; daring; noble: a heroic ambition.

3. having or displaying the character or attributes of a hero; extraordinarily bold, altruistic, determined, etc.: a heroic explorer.

4. having or involving recourse to boldness, daring, or extreme measures: Heroic measures were taken to save his life.

5. dealing with or describing the deeds, attributes, etc., of heroes, as in literature.

6. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the heroes of antiquity: heroic mythology.

7. used in heroic poetry. Compare HEROIC VERSE.

 

8. resembling heroic poetry in language or style; grandiloquent.

9. (of style or language) lofty; extravagant; grand.

10. larger than life-size: a statue of heroic proportions.

–noun

11. Usually, heroics. HEROIC VERSE.

 

12. heroics,

a. flamboyant or extravagant language, sentiment, or behavior, intended to seem heroic.

b. heroic action or behavior.

 

 

he⋅ro

   ˈhɪər oʊShow Spelled Pronunciation [heer-oh] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.

1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

4. Classical Mythology.

a. a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.

b. (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.

c. (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.

 

5. HERO SANDWICH.

 

6. the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Since people seem to fall back on “your definition of ‘X’ is wrong” as an argument, without actually providing definitions, here…

 

From Dictionary.com:

Bravo, and those definitions prove my point.

 

TB

[Vulcan]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I was really hoping that I was out of this thread, but I find myself getting pulled back in...

 

Threats are generally not torture. I've said it before, and it seems I must say it again, please look up the definition of torture.

 

While you are at it, please understand that torture is a war crime. A crime so horrible that -- following U.S. leadership -- more than 140 countries have agreed that it must be investigated and must be prosecuted no matter where it takes place in the world. Furthermore they have agreed that there is no excuse for torture. None. (Ticking time bomb included.)

 

While it is certainly in genre for heroes to be tempted to commit torture, torture is never heroic.

 

When Batman tortures a criminal for information he is not being heroic. That makes him complex and interesting because in other ways he is heroic. The unrealistic aspect of torture in Batman is twofold:

1) it seems to work fairly often. In real life it does not.

Note: Despite protests to the contrary, useful information gained through torture at Guantanamo Bay seems to be zero. Useful information gained through talking to Saddam Hussein, on the other hand, was copious.

2) other heroes and government bodies seem to turn a blind eye to Batman's torture. In real life this should not happen.

Note: The U.S. Department of Justice, justice departments around the world, and the UN are all looking into torture at Guantanamo Bay. It seems quite likely that senior Bush administration officials are in real legal jeopardy both at home and abroad.

 

I conceeded several posts back that torture would only be effective if the GM wanted it to be. The current discussion is about whether threatening to torture someone could or should be sufficient to get the generic thug to crack.

 

If you are going to comment on what I'm saying, please try to keep up with the conversation.

[Greywind]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

I conceeded several posts back that torture would only be effective if the GM wanted it to be. The current discussion is about whether threatening to torture someone could or should be sufficient to get the generic thug to crack.

 

If you are going to comment on what I'm saying, please try to keep up with the conversation.

Depends upon the reputation the character has built. Batman has such a reputation that most don't know what he would do in any given situation.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

Bravo, and those definitions prove my point.

 

TB

 

And it validates my use of the term. Check Definition 4 of torture. You don't have to touch someone to torture them.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Code vs Killing, but Gods a little fuzzy about kneecaps.

 

And it validates my use of the term. Check Definition 4 of torture. You don't have to touch someone to torture them.

When dictionaries define something, they list the definitions in order of most common meaning.

 

Torture has to involve excrutiating pain (whether physical, mental, or spiritual. I leave that open) for it to be torture. Otherwise, it'd be something else, like say, annoyance, or boring.

 

TB