PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

[nexus]

Assuming an event which didn't cause extensive damage to civic infrastructure (some but not huge amounts) about how long could toilets, faucets and another plumbing realistically continue to work without maintenance?

[Barton]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Assuming an event which didn't cause extensive damage to civic infrastructure (some but not huge amounts) about how long could toilets' date=' faucets and another plumbing realistically continue to work without maintenance?[/quote']

 

Many, many, variables. Some ROMAN era plumbing is still working. In some areas of eastern Germany the sewers are not working in some areas because the population is so low the water flow is not enough to keep them sanitary.

 

Hard to answer. Modern US plumbing would likely not run long with some expert help, maybe a few years or decade. The biggest problem is that without electric pumps no clean water or sewage treatment is going to happen to many areas in the US. So within days the plumbing is useless due to no water pressure and withing weeks/months the sewers would be useless also (lack of pumping, and lack of clean fouling and breaks not being repaired).

 

Note I am not a city planner or a plumber. If you know a plumber ask her/him.

[Markdoc]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

I'm not a plumber either, but I'd tend to agree - most sewerage/drainage systems require electrical pumps at some points along their line - and sewerage systems at least also require frequent cleaning (I spent one summer working at a sewerage plant when I was at university). My guess is that many systems would fail within hours of the power going off due to lack of water pressure, a majority of systems would fail within days as the drains backed up/blocked up and a very few where it was gravity feeds throughout would last for many years, possibly decades. They are still using sewer lines laid in in Copenhagen in the early 1700's, for example - because those early lines were only laid places where gravity feed was possible, and they have been regularly flushed to clean them.

 

cheers, Mark

[Certified]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

I would argue that water and sewage could and would run as long as dramatically appropriate. In this Apocalypse of unknown origin source we do not know what happened to the other supporting factors. If the end of the world scenario permitted, there were enough survivors, one might even be able to tell a quite compelling story of people struggling to keep electricity and water running as long as possible. An up hill battle that was inevitably lost. This could take the shape of people trying to hide the extent of the damage or trying to recover from it. Personally, I think the idea of people trying to maintain a sense or normalcy in the face of insanity could make a cool kind of primer depending on setting and tone you want to convey.

[nexus]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Thanks for the information, guys (I assume. ). You've been very helpful.

[azato]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Well, I think it also depends on the locale. Places that have wide thermal cycles (freezing to sweltering heat) will have more problems than places that don't. I think that plumbing in buildings will be very susceptible especially galvanized and copper = severe corrosion can occur in less than a decade and other time be fine for several decades.

 

I think it would depend on how long a time period.

 

Getting water may be easy but getting safe drinking water and have faucets work is another.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

just started an Eric Flint book last night called "Time Spike" it deals with a dimensional shift situation sorta like what happened to Grantville in the 1632 series. except this has displaced a maxium security prison in southern Illinois[its been renamed, but I think from the area it might be around Belleville] to someplace in the Jurrasic era. along with folks from several other eras

 

one of things the book talks about, but not in real detail, was the rigging of Methane Toilets,

http://www.freeenergy.ca/news/126/ARTICLE/1230/2007-03-06.html

[Kristopher]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

And while you ruled it out in the OP, there are some PA scenarios in which the plumbing would be ruined instantly. Nuclear blasts, for example, can shatter underground water and sewer systems.

[Badger]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

In cold areas, considering the havoc that gets wrecked on pipes (if no one is there to pay it attention) probably not through the winter.

[Kestrel]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

There was an interesting show on the History Channel a little while back. They still show re-runs now and again. Aftermath: Population Zero. It talks about what would happen if all the people suddenly disappeared. Even though a P-A world wouldn't have a sudden loss of all people, this could make a good benchmark for figuring out just what services exist and for how long.

 

Here is the wiki for the timeline that I found.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=15954278

[Toadmaster]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Sewer systems would generally fail within hours or days (depands on how much you flush) of power failure, because the lift stations need power to keep the sewage flowing.

 

Septic systems on the other hand could last a lot longer since you just need water to fill the toilet tank which may or may not require power. If you have a water source (creek, river, pond etc) nearby this could be done by lugging buckets of water. If you have a windmill to pump water to an above ground tank you may not even suffer a disruption of service.

[Badger]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Yes, a septic system would last longer. Still, the tank will eventually fill. So, I would still only give it a couple of years. (which seemed to be the rate when something went wrong with our tank before we got on public water.

 

 

So, basically you'll eventually have to go in the woods.

[Toadmaster]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Yes, a septic system would last longer. Still, the tank will eventually fill. So, I would still only give it a couple of years. (which seemed to be the rate when something went wrong with our tank before we got on public water.

 

 

So, basically you'll eventually have to go in the woods.

 

 

Tanks can be emptied ( ), a lot also depends on the size of the tank and use, 20 people using a system designed for a 2 bedroom home will quickly fill up. The characteristics of the soil also plays a large part in frequency of maintenance.

 

Staying within the design limits allows the bacteria to do its work and greatly increases the time between major service. We have a septic at our rental house and its been going fine for 10 years without a problem.

 

I have a book that gets into all the various non sewer disposal systems, composting toilets, pit toilets etc. I got it for the info on care and feeding of septic systems since the house we bought had one and I didn't know much about them. The other systems are not as practical for modern life but would work in more primitive situations.

 

With a knowledgable person to design it, a post apocalypse society could easily maintain sanitation with minimal expenditure of resources or need for electrical power.

[Badger]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Yeah, well, we used to clean out our septic tanks every so often. However, with the septic tank truck though. Without one of those it might be highly inconvenient (at best). Not impossible, mind you. But, it probably wouldnt be practical to do, for one lone survivor(which was more how I was looking at it). If it was a small community most likely it could be maintained.

 

But, in a small community you might have the guy who can make pipes (provided he can obtain the materials) etc, etc.

[Toadmaster]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Yeah, well, we used to clean out our septic tanks every so often. However, with the septic tank truck though. Without one of those it might be highly inconvenient (at best). Not impossible, mind you. But, it probably wouldnt be practical to do, for one lone survivor(which was more how I was looking at it). If it was a small community most likely it could be maintained.

 

But, in a small community you might have the guy who can make pipes (provided he can obtain the materials) etc, etc.

 

Definitely for a lone survivor or small group you are probably looking at composting toilets at best, and more likely pit toilets. Of course if that lone survivor happened to own a honey pumper he would be all set with the indoor plumbing situation. I pity the fool who follows him down the highway, talk about the mother of all dropped weapons.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Honestly, just like in the good old days, in a PA society that has anything even remotely resembling civilization you'll probably see a return of the Night Soil Collectors, who travel around with carts or other vehicles to empty pits, pump leech fields and the like, then haul the proceeds somewhere far enough from settlements that the smell won't offend, spread and process the stuff. It's too valuable as a source of nitrates for both farming and for producing black powder.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

Nightsoil collecting was, at least in Europe, a niche trade that doesn't really solve the sewage problem. In part it supported cash-crop gardeners in the suburbs growing vegetables and flowers on small acreages, and their demand was limited. In general, crop rotation got sufficient nitrogen into food without such desperate measures.

Mostly, though, the collectors sold to leather manufacturers, for reasons that you may or may not want to seek clarification on. Keyword: "bating." Don't say I didn't warn you.

The residual waste went into rivers, septic fields and ditches, and sewage has been a serious public health problem for a very long time indeed. There were "Commissioners of the Sewer" in Elizabethan times, and although their main concern was floodwater drainage, there is an unfortuante synergy between floods and human waste disposal that you may already be aware of if you live in an excessively flat city such as Toronto.

Umm, the smell of the storm sewers at Harbord and Gerrard after a rainy day...

As for producing saltpetre, you can actually farm it. Plant a floodable field in a cheap, nitrogen-fixing legume. Cut. Flood. Drain. Leave to rot. Flood again, and let stand. After a few days, drain again, but this time divert the water through evaporating pans, and Bob's your uncle! The world wouldn't have been able to afford the Napoleonic Wars without this trick, so we should all be grateful on behalf of miniatures gamers everywhere.

[mwiggins]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

water pressure in some places isn't a problem for a short term. in my town (for example) the water don't come straight from the treatment plants pumps's. It goes to a big tank on top of a hill (or a tower) the height of the tanks above the tap is what gives a house its pressure. there is a math formula for figuring out the pressure caused by a water towers height, but I can't remember it.

But how long it will last depends on how water tight the system is. Did anyone leave the fauset running? flush the toilet? leaking city pipes? froze and have pipes bust?

of course in a post apocolips type of servival situation it might not be safe to drink.

[mwiggins]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

nightsoil collecting business is still going strong. they pump and maintain septic systems and portapottys.

 

I read some grafitti in a portapotty once...

"Incase of nuclear attack the Manimum capacity of this portapotty is 12. Last man in, please close the lid behind behind you."

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: PA Hero:How long would plumbing work?

 

water pressure in some places isn't a problem for a short term. in my town (for example) the water don't come straight from the treatment plants pumps's. It goes to a big tank on top of a hill (or a tower) the height of the tanks above the tap is what gives a house its pressure. there is a math formula for figuring out the pressure caused by a water towers height' date=' but I can't remember it. [/i']

But how long it will last depends on how water tight the system is. Did anyone leave the fauset running? flush the toilet? leaking city pipes? froze and have pipes bust?

of course in a post apocolips type of servival situation it might not be safe to drink.

 

around 1/2 PSI (.43 IIRC) per foot of elevation, minus friction losses from the pipe and any fittings.