Kristopher Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I see swords like those in the attached image in shops and in fantasy art a lot, and I always wonder, are they based on anything that's ever actually been used as a weapon? In particular, the longer, top-most sword. If so, where, when, and how would it be used? Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? There are a few odd-looking swords around the world, but those seem like fantasy blades to me. I see a lot of those in the BudK catalogues, where they are given fancy names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? I see swords like those in the attached image in shops and in fantasy art a lot, and I always wonder, are they based on anything that's every actually been used as a weapon? In particular, the longer, top-most sword. If so, where, when, and how would it be used? Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee? It looks similar to a khopesh, a real world sword. Except for the curving out part near the hilt. A little wiki-ing leads me to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcata That looks quite similar. Keeping in mind that metallurgy has advanced significantly which allows for shapes that just were not possible by ancient craftsman, rather than modern forms just being fanciful and not reflecting any real function. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? There's also matters of stress on materials - modern steels are a lot more homogeneous with little crystalisation (if done correctly) and are less likely to shatter at critical stress points of a sword. Hence - the Kurgan's sword in Highlander would last for precisely one hit before flying into a hundred pieces, if it was real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? I don't know whether they'd be useless, but those are definitely "Fantasy" blades. I'm sure if you look around through enough reference sources you could find something vaguely similar, such as the aforementioned Falcata, but I don't think these are intended as historical re-creations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayapuppies Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? Those seem to mirror the Elven blade aesthetic from the LoTR movies. A trend I've seen in most fantasy style blades since their release. Personally, I think it's an improvement over the old fantasy style blades that look liked swords with really bad haircuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? These are doubtless fantasy blades - but not necessarily useless. Modern steel is remarkably resilient, and the overall designs are reminiscent of some real world designs. The lower one does have a "khopesh" sort of feel to it (a philistine blade the egyptians adopted into use). The top one looks vaguely like a Falacta - though its definately not one. The real question (beyond balance and tensile strength), I think, is what sort of milieu these would be useful in. They are definately hacking-cutting blades: choppers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? Or are they purely the work of imagination' date=' and fairly useless in a real melee?[/quote'] Definitely pure fantasy, but it really depends on what they are made of and how they are weighted. By the look of them, they would not be a good weapon for a number of reasons: useless and potentially dangerous protrusions, only partial hand guard, looks like poor materials and workmanship. Looking it up, it's 440 Stainless, which is total crap for a sword (too brittle). To my eyes, looks like an overly fancy two handed kilij, which probably means it would be used more like a katana than a shamshir. That doesn't strike me as a good combo at all, but I would have to have it in hand to know for sure. By the look alone, it doesn't match my preferences though. In addition this weapon gives up the thrust completely and, because of the angles of the handle and blade, it's actually hard to say how well it will work for chopping, cutting or slashing. Mind you, you could probably still kill someone with it if it's sharp... or at least has enough weight behind it Oh, and I believe the original version of this blade was designed by Kit Rae. Check out the "Mithrodian" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? I think the real value of these things is as wall decorations (though I have to admit, I would never decorate my wall with something that so obviously wasn't actually a sword). There have been a bunch of weird and wacky sword designs used in real life, but even so, what's in the photos are clearly are "fantasy blades" - useless and imbalanced in combat. One thing all real swords share with each other (regardless of cultural origin) is an absence of the doodads, flanges, whatsits and animal/monster heads with which fantasy blades are so richly decorated - even if the blades, hilts or pommels of real swords were carefully and sometimes richly decorated. I agree with Mayapuppies: the big handle/blade ratio on these babies suggest that their real point of origin is the elven blades from LoTR. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsoul Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? One thing all real swords share with each other (regardless of cultural origin) is an absence of the doodads, flanges, whatsits and animal/monster heads with which fantasy blades are so richly decorated. Apart from the sword breaker of course. But that had a very practical use. I'd agree that those blades look impractical. Not useless, nothing that big and sharp is useless as a weapon, but severely hampered when used against a blade designed with practicality in mind. Of course I'm more of a dabbler than an expert in bladecraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? You know, I've never actually seen anyone break a sword with one of those things. I'm not honestly sure it could be done reliably... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsoul Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? Depends entirely on the craftsmanship and type of sword in question. But apparently it has not been proven that swordbreakers were considered capable of actually breaking the swords which were contemporary with them. They would have been more reliable as a method of catching and/or trapping an opponent's blade. In principle they're not so different from a Japanese Sai. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? I think the idea with the khopesh is that it is a Middle Bronze Age weapon. People at the time had relatively little access to metal, and were experimenting with forms that might get the best bang for the buck, resulting in the strange and impractical before real swords emerged in the LBA. Strangely, no 1500BC swordsmith has asked my opinion. And if they did, I think I'd refer them to Bloodstone. Who would totally have to share his consulting fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? Definitely pure fantasy' date=' but it really depends on what they are made of and how they are weighted. By the look of them, they would not be a good weapon for a number of reasons: useless and potentially dangerous protrusions, only partial hand guard, looks like poor materials and workmanship. Looking it up, it's 440 Stainless, which is total crap for a sword (too brittle)[/quote'] Nice catch on the steel quality. I looked up some quality swords online - the kind you use for cutting targets in dojos. Real cutting blades. They generally use 1090 steel. Also, looking at these things: they don't look at all balanced. I haven't picked one up, of course, but on a second glance they look... awkward. I think its the handle-blade relationship that bothers me. It makes me want to cock my head to one side to "make it right." Especially the bottom one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? Apart from the sword breaker of course. But that had a very practical use. I'd agree that those blades look impractical. Not useless, nothing that big and sharp is useless as a weapon, but severely hampered when used against a blade designed with practicality in mind. Of course I'm more of a dabbler than an expert in bladecraft. Even that looks significantly more practical than the fantasy blades from the OP You know' date=' I've never actually seen anyone break a sword with one of those things. I'm not honestly sure it could be done reliably...[/quote'] You are probably right (in fact, I'm not sure it could be done at all under combat situations). Like the Japanese sai (of which we have contemporary records of its use) the use of these gadgets was probably to catch and hold the sword, rather than break it, allowing either the swordwielder to be sudbued, or opening him up for a counterattack. You might be able to break a foil with it though... In fact, I can't even find any contemporary use of the word swordbreaker: the toothed daggers seem to have been called "parrying daggers" at the time (and there were lots of parrying daggers designed to catch swords, which clearly could never have broken them). It's always dangerous to make assumptions based on lack of evidence, but personally I think the name "swordbreaker" is a relatively modern one. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? The problem with researching anything to do with weapons and armour online is the complete inundation with roleplaying articles, terminology and fictional information that dilutes any useful progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? I see swords like those in the attached image in shops and in fantasy art a lot, and I always wonder, are they based on anything that's ever actually been used as a weapon? In particular, the longer, top-most sword. If so, where, when, and how would it be used? Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee? The picture depicts the same weapon from different angles. The middle one looks so different from the top one because of the odd perspective distorting the shape of the blade. As far as functionality: Well, so long as it has a sharp edge it can be dangerous. But with 440 Stainless Steel, it is definitely intended to be 'pretty' rather than functional. Design-wise, it reminds me more of a falchion than a khopesh. One thing I do know is that the short two-hander (anything katana-length or shorter) is of limited use in a real melee-armed combat - you're giving up the rather large benefits of a shield or (if you can coordinate it) an extra weapon to parry with, for a minor gain in leverage and power without any real gain in striking range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? I might have asked the question poorly. I knew that the specific sword in the image was a work of a modern smith/artist's imagination. I just wondered if anything along the general lines of that weapon had ever been used by any real people. What strikes me as the most un-useful part of the specific sword pictured is actually the highly angled "base" of the blade, where it meets the handle. Anything that causes the blade to slip in the wielder's hands has a good chance of causing the upper hand to lose its grip, I'd guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? I might have asked the question poorly. I knew that the specific sword in the image was a work of a modern smith/artist's imagination. I just wondered if anything along the general lines of that weapon had ever been used by any real people. What strikes me as the most un-useful part of the specific sword pictured is actually the highly angled "base" of the blade, where it meets the handle. Anything that causes the blade to slip in the wielder's hands has a good chance of causing the upper hand to lose its grip, I'd guess. Ah - OK. The Khopesh and falcata have been mentioned, but to my eye, this looks nothing like either of those. It does, (in general shape) however look a bit like some swords I saw in museum of Thailand*. Those were pretty crude and as they were labelled "bandit weapons" I'm guessing they were agricultural cutting tools with the handles cut down to make makeshift swords, in the much the way European peasants cut down billhooks. *the small miltary museum next to the palace in the compund of the temple of the Emerald Buddha in Bangkok, if anyone's interested cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? Ah - OK. The Khopesh and falcata have bene mentioned' date=' but to my eye, this looks nothing like either of those. It does, (in general shape) however look a bit like some of swords I saw in museum of Thailand*. Those were pretty crude and as they were labelled "bandit weapons" I'm guessing they were agricultural cutting tools with the handles cut down to make makeshift swords, in the much the way European peasants cut down billhooks.[/quote'] Did it look anything like the Thai or Burmese Dha? I mention that one because it's a lightly curved sword with enough hilt for two hands, even though it's usually used one handed (often in matched pairs...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? . . . I've held one of those. Practiced some kodachi kata. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted March 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? The problem with researching anything to do with weapons and armour online is the complete inundation with roleplaying articles' date=' terminology and fictional information that dilutes any useful progress.[/quote'] I've read more than one claim, for example, that what gamers (and others) now call a "long sword" was, at least in England, call an arming sword, and that the term long sword was actually the original name for what gamers now call "bastard swords". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? I've read more than one claim' date=' for example, that what gamers (and others) now call a "long sword" was, at least in England, call an arming sword, and that the term long sword was actually the original name for what gamers now call "bastard swords".[/quote'] Gamers like to put things in neat boxes. Medieval people hadn't invented RPGs. So what Gamers like to call a "long sword" medieval English people called a knightly sword, arming sword, broadsword, long sword, French sword, or just plain ol' sword. The name "long sword" was also used for bastard swords and occasionally for two-handed swords, and just to add to confusion, what we now call bastard swords were also called hand and a half swords, knightly swords or German swords. Basically there was no such thing as standard sword types, and thus no such thing as a standard name for them. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? Did it look anything like the Thai or Burmese Dha? I mention that one because it's a lightly curved sword with enough hilt for two hands, even though it's usually used one handed (often in matched pairs...) Nope, I've seen plenty of Dha or "fish swords". The items in question have that "blade widening and extending out in a point where the hilt would be if it had a hilt" shape that Kristopher asked about. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy? Yep Not too big deal so long as everyone knows what everyone else is talking about, but it does cause a lot of confusion. But nobody wants to refer to swords by terms like Oakeshott XII... Though I will admit I about threw a fit when I saw what D&D thought a falchion looked like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.