Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

[Markdoc]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The other possibility, often overlooked, is actually one of the most basic of weapons - the spear. A long-bladed spear is an excellent weapon for a smaller fighter, because it gives reach, and also because its length gives leverage (increasing the amount of damage you can do while slashing). You can use the haft to deliver non-killing blows or to trip and confuse your opponent. Even in a country as addicted to swords as Japan, during the age of war, the spear was the battlefield weapon par excellence.

 

It's not an "exotic" weapon per se, but it is relatively exotic in fantasy fiction because heroes tend to have swords, really big axes or funky chain weapons. It does have the drawback of being largish.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Okay. If we're looking at a Roman tech level, metallurgy is still a bit on the primitive side. Swords rarely reach more than 3' overall, because the steel of the time won't support longer weapons structurally.

 

The swords of the time range from the classic Celtic longsword, the Roman Gladius, the Falcatta, the Greek Hoplite-style short swords, and the actual historical Khopesh (not to be confused with the D&D version). All are pictured here: http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/ancient-swords.html Go ahead and take a look, I'll wait here.

 

Now, two things jump out. First, not one of those swords have very much in the way of a handguard. That is typical of all weapons of the time period. You block with the shield, and attack with the sword. Later guards were developed for occasions where one might be fighting without a shield.

 

The other thing is that neither the celtic longsword nor the Falcatta have points worth speaking of. That's because they are primarily slashing and chopping weapons - the Falcatta in particular has very nearly as much chopping power as an axe!

 

That leaves us with the various Greek and Roman shortswords, and the Khopesh.

 

The Greek and Roman swords were very well designed for use in tight formations. The primary attack form was the thrust, and the long, tapered points facilitate that well. Additionally, the 'cutting tests' performed on the website I linked to show that they also have a fair amount of cutting power - bearing in mind that these are generally pretty big, strong guys doing the testing. Your female protaganist may have a bit of trouble duplicating those results, but these swords are still plenty lethal in the cut.

 

But then, there's still the Khopesh. Looks kinda crude there, that old, tarnished bronze weapon. The blade, being sickle-shaped (but with the edge on the outside of the curve) gives it a primitive appearance, and so it was judged a primitive, clumsy weapon by historians - a footnote in the evolution of swords, as it were.

 

Then recently, someone made up a modern one and handed it to an experienced medieval combat reinactor... And the assessment was a true revalation. It swings like a dream, and has a slash or chop much like the falcatta, but the reinforced point - and that subtle angle between the hilt and the point - make it stab like the best Gladius, only a bit longer (bonus!).

 

The khopesh was recently featured on a Discovery or History channel special about Egyptian weaponry, I wish I could find a link to it off hand (you might try searching for it yourself, my google-fu seems rather weak tonight). Add into that the ability to use the curve of the sickle-shape to 'hook' an opponent's shield and wrench it out of position, and you have one heck of a weapon system!

 

If you're looking to give your character a taste of the exotic, a Khopesh might be the way to go.

 

Not a bad suggestion at all. Problem is, there's already another culture using them as a "signature" weapon.

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The other possibility, often overlooked, is actually one of the most basic of weapons - the spear. A long-bladed spear is an excellent weapon for a smaller fighter, because it gives reach, and also because its length gives leverage (increasing the amount of damage you can do while slashing). You can use the haft to deliver non-killing blows or to trip and confuse your opponent. Even in a country as addicted to swords as Japan, during the age of war, the spear was the battlefield weapon par excellence.

 

It's not an "exotic" weapon per se, but it is relatively exotic in fantasy fiction because heroes tend to have swords, really big axes or funky chain weapons. It does have the drawback of being largish.

 

I had considered a sort of "spear-sword" with a longer blade (10 to 14 inches or so) for both slashing and stabbing, and a slightly shorter haft, with a small crossguard at the base of the blade.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Oh, looks about like this:

 

 

It looks like the “Scimitars” from the Aladdin cartoon!

 

Part of what interested me in this, besides pure curiousity, is that there's a character in the FNIP who needs a somewhat unusual but very functional weapon.

 

I think I'm just going to stick with the sword that has about 30" of straight/pointed blade and yet has a full two-handed hilt.

 

FNIP = Fantasy Novel in Progress. (Perhaps I should add a "supposed" in there, I don't have much energy to work on the thing most days.)

 

The protagonist needs a cutting/stabbing weapon that takes advatage of her quickness, works in both offense and defense, and can be easily switched between hands.

 

I was looking at that weapon in the picture and thinking that something vaguely like it, but with more a functional interface between blade and hilt, and with a much less curved and artsy hilt, would be a possibility.

 

I had considered a sort of "spear-sword" with a longer blade (10 to 14 inches or so) for both slashing and stabbing' date=' and a slightly shorter haft, with a small crossguard at the base of the blade.[/quote']

 

If you had thought of a spear or staff, try looking up the Shaolin Spade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_spade You can ‘stab’ with the short points of the crescent, slice with the pendulum

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

If you had thought of a spear or staff, try looking up the Shaolin Spade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_spade You can ‘stab’ with the short points of the crescent, slice with the pendulum

 

Very cool, but not exactly what I'm looking for.

[bschrempp]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Very cool! Do you happen to know what the second one from the left is called? I find it very interesting....

 

 

Looking at my original images and zooming way in I can read most of the labels next to the polearms. From left to right they read:

A Dame's Club (not 100% on the second word)

The Spanish Morning-Star

King Henry the VIIIth's Walking Staff

A Spanish Lance

Spanish Ramcer (not sure on the second word)

A Foreign Lance

The Spanish General's Halbert

A Scythe

The Lockhaber Axe

So that is what the Tower Of London Museum calls them.

 

 

Bob

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The greeks made a sword with a leaf-shaped blade (a bit like an elongated spearhead) around 30" or so long. It was designed to stab, but had enough weight toward the tip to give it a rather authoritative chop. I've been hunting around for a picture, but thus far haven't found one...

[Lucius]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Looking at my original images and zooming way in I can read most of the labels next to the polearms. From left to right they read:

A Dame's Club (not 100% on the second word)

 

Bob

 

Could it be "A Dane's Club?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks a Dame's Club sounds like the feminine equivalent of a Gentleman's Club

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The greeks made a sword with a leaf-shaped blade (a bit like an elongated spearhead) around 30" or so long. It was designed to stab' date=' but had enough weight toward the tip to give it a rather authoritative chop. I've been hunting around for a picture, but thus far haven't found one... [/quote']

 

I think I know which sword you're refering to, and I'm also having a lot of trouble finding a good image.

 

(You have to wade through a lot of crap, nonsense swords from the "spartan" warriors shown in 300 now, if you look for "Greek sword" in Google.)

 

Sounds like you mean something a bit like the two in the attached images.

[mikesama]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Gamers like to put things in neat boxes. Medieval people hadn't invented RPGs. So what Gamers like to call a "long sword" medieval English people called a knightly sword, arming sword, broadsword, long sword, French sword, or just plain ol' sword. The name "long sword" was also used for bastard swords and occasionally for two-handed swords, and just to add to confusion, what we now call bastard swords were also called hand and a half swords, knightly swords or German swords.

 

Basically there was no such thing as standard sword types, and thus no such thing as a standard name for them.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Closest you got is the research and works of Ewart Oakeshott who has guard types blade patterns and the like to classify the sword.

[Markdoc]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Closest you got is the research and works of Ewart Oakeshott who has guard types blade patterns and the like to classify the sword.

 

Yeah, but Oakeshott is one of the last of those compulsive victorians who gave us the "classify and fix the names of things" meme. The breadth of his knowledge and the depth of his research cannot be doubted. He is still frequently cited, by scholars in medieval and feudal archeology. At the same time, his classification systems today are considered a bit laughable - the staff archeologists at the National museum here, which hold one of the world's largest collection of viking swords have removed the old Oakeshott classifications from their catalogue cards, describing them as "at best uninformative, at worst misleading" - although another, in an unguarded remark to me called them "ren fantasi" - "pure fantasy". By classing two swords as - for example - "Petersen G" you give the impression that they are somehow related, even though they might come from completely different areas and be produced two hundred years apart by smiths who knew nothing of each other's work.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

I think I know which sword you're refering to, and I'm also having a lot of trouble finding a good image.

 

(You have to wade through a lot of crap, nonsense swords from the "spartan" warriors shown in 300 now, if you look for "Greek sword" in Google.)

 

Sounds like you mean something a bit like the two in the attached images.

 

Vaguely. The one I saw was a bit longer (the pugio was only 18" or so), and even more severely wasp-waisted just above the 'guard'.

 

I've got to keep looking, it was a really cool-looking short sword.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Okay, I've found a picture of the sword I'm talking about here: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_ironempire.html

 

Scroll down just a bit, and there is a picture of it on the right - it is the first one on the page, and is apparently called the Xiphos. The text confirms it's versatility for both cutting and stabbing (although it correcty points out that the xiphos does lack the sheer chopping power of the kopis/falcatta design).

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Okay, I've found a picture of the sword I'm talking about here: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_ironempire.html

 

Scroll down just a bit, and there is a picture of it on the right - it is the first one on the page, and is apparently called the Xiphos. The text confirms it's versatility for both cutting and stabbing (although it correcty points out that the xiphos does lack the sheer chopping power of the kopis/falcatta design).

 

I almost asked if you meant the xiphos after looking around, but the images I saw weren't very clear and it looked almost straight in those.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The really fun thing about discussing historical weapons is that the people who used the weapons didn't speak modern English - heck, most didn't speak any form of English. So we get a variety of names for swords that, in their original context, probably would most accurately translate as 'sword'...

 

I thought that the Xiphos was the sword I was looking for, but like your searches, most of mine turned up the straight-edged versions, or occasionally ones that were just slightly wasp-waisted. The one on the link, on the other hand, doubles in width from the narrow section just below the guard to the broadest part of the blade 2/3rds of the way to the tip.

 

One of these days I would love to get my hands on one of those and see how well it swings. (That, and a good replica of a Khopesh... )

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

So...

 

Are there any examples of swords with something around 30" of blade length, and a full two-handed hilt? Almost every example I can find of a "bastard sword" or a two-hander have at least 36" of blade.

[Fitz]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Japanese swords, of course -- a lot of later katana are quite short in the blade, well under 30"; 24-28" blades are quite common. As far as European swords go, some falchions were made with longer hand-and-a-half grips on a relatively short chopping blade.

[Markdoc]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The really fun thing about discussing historical weapons is that the people who used the weapons didn't speak modern English - heck' date=' most didn't speak [i']any[/i] form of English. So we get a variety of names for swords that, in their original context, probably would most accurately translate as 'sword'...

 

I thought that the Xiphos was the sword I was looking for, but like your searches, most of mine turned up the straight-edged versions, or occasionally ones that were just slightly wasp-waisted. The one on the link, on the other hand, doubles in width from the narrow section just below the guard to the broadest part of the blade 2/3rds of the way to the tip.

 

That's because of what you wrote in your first paragraph - a Xiphos is just a short stabbing sword (there's disagreement on what the name means because it's derived from pre-attic greek: most scholars settle on "stabbing" or "penetrating". The blade can be lots of different shapes. The shape of blade you are referring to is found in all kinds of swords and is generally referred to as a "leaf blade" - you find it in early spanish swords (Pugio) and celtic swords as well.

 

Although the way the weigh was distributed towards the tip makes it look like it'd be good for chopping, there is some debate about this - a lot of historians think that the leaf shape was designed to make "drawing cuts" easier - a slicing type of cut that goes far deeper than a simple chop - but which isn't much use against armour.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

So...

 

Are there any examples of swords with something around 30" of blade length, and a full two-handed hilt? Almost every example I can find of a "bastard sword" or a two-hander have at least 36" of blade.

 

Not unless you make one up specifically for your character.

 

A two-handed sword is designed long specifically to take advantage of the extra leverage the grip provides to extend reach and, by that extension, chopping power at the tip. A sword is basically a wedge powered by a lever. The longer the lever, the more force is delivered to the wedge at the point of impact.

 

A short two-hander of the size you're looking for would surrender a lot of reach to most one-handed weapons (along with the utility of being able to do something else with the other hand), for only a modest increase in leverage for the block/bind, and little-to-none advantage in actual striking power. In short, historically you're going to get cut to ribbons using such a short two-hander.

 

The katana (and the similarly-sized swords used by Conan in the movies) are about as short as you can make a two-hander and still have any useable advantage over a single-handed sword.

 

Now in the time period you're looking at - the ancient Greek/Egyptian period - swords were significantly shorter, because the metallurgy would not support swords over 36" overall length - any longer and they tended to break very quickly. So, most swords had 5-6" in handle, guard, and pommel, leaving 30(ish) inches of blade. For proper function, a two-handed grip would need at least a foot of handle, plus another couple inches in guard and pommel. That leaves you with a 20ish inch blade, or roughly a two-handed dagger...

 

A two-handed sword in this time period would be an anomoly - of course, that might well be what makes your heroine special. However it happened, someone managed to forge some honest-to-god steel instead of iron, and made a significantly longer weapon just for her...

 

Edit: Thinking about it, giving her a real steel sword would also give her a huuuuuuuuge advantage in cutting power as well!

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Not unless you make one up specifically for your character.

 

A two-handed sword is designed long specifically to take advantage of the extra leverage the grip provides to extend reach and, by that extension, chopping power at the tip. A sword is basically a wedge powered by a lever. The longer the lever, the more force is delivered to the wedge at the point of impact.

 

A short two-hander of the size you're looking for would surrender a lot of reach to most one-handed weapons (along with the utility of being able to do something else with the other hand), for only a modest increase in leverage for the block/bind, and little-to-none advantage in actual striking power. In short, historically you're going to get cut to ribbons using such a short two-hander.

 

The katana (and the similarly-sized swords used by Conan in the movies) are about as short as you can make a two-hander and still have any useable advantage over a single-handed sword.

 

Now in the time period you're looking at - the ancient Greek/Egyptian period - swords were significantly shorter, because the metallurgy would not support swords over 36" overall length - any longer and they tended to break very quickly. So, most swords had 5-6" in handle, guard, and pommel, leaving 30(ish) inches of blade. For proper function, a two-handed grip would need at least a foot of handle, plus another couple inches in guard and pommel. That leaves you with a 20ish inch blade, or roughly a two-handed dagger...

 

A two-handed sword in this time period would be an anomoly - of course, that might well be what makes your heroine special. However it happened, someone managed to forge some honest-to-god steel instead of iron, and made a significantly longer weapon just for her...

 

Edit: Thinking about it, giving her a real steel sword would also give her a huuuuuuuuge advantage in cutting power as well!

 

To be clear, 30"-ish blade, plus the length of the hilt. OK, wait, I see what you're actually saying -- that with the limit of technology in the time period you're thinking of, the limit for a full two-handed hilt would be no more than 20" of blade, which I agree with be a bit rediculous.

 

I'm a bit conflicted about the technology level in question -- I was actually, as stated, thinking about Roman-era peak for most of the world (which is a lot more sophisticated than some people think), because the largest state is Roman Republic-esque, but then I have some concepts that demand something different, and I have to reconcile without being cheesey or unbelievable. Might be a case of too many ideas for one setting...

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The fighting approach of the character in question is about being unpredictable and versatile. She needs a weapon that can change hands and styles quickly, can deal with most other weapons in single/small combat, and can be carried easily by someone who travels all the time.

 

As for shields, she wears heavy, multilayer plate vambraces (the armor on the forearm, in her case "gutter" instead of "cylinder") -- heavier than you'd usually see even in a set of full, articulated plate armor. Her gloves are also heavily armored on the back of the hand and fingers. Maybe that's not as functional as I'm thinking it would be.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The fighting approach of the character in question is about being unpredictable and versatile. She needs a weapon that can change hands and styles quickly, can deal with most other weapons in single/small combat, and can be carried easily by someone who travels all the time.

 

As for shields, she wears heavy, multilayer plate vambraces (the armor on the forearm, in her case "gutter" instead of "cylinder") -- heavier than you'd usually see even in a set of full, articulated plate armor. Her gloves are also heavily armored on the back of the hand and fingers. Maybe that's not as functional as I'm thinking it would be.

 

She'd have to have arms like Arnold Schwartzenegger to hold up all that metal...

 

Although... in a setting where bronze is the most common material for weapons and armor, then iron - or some more anomolous steel - vambraces would be very hard to damage, and wouldn't have to be ridiculosuly thick and heavy to do the job.

 

Or you could go with a paired weapon combo for her - say, short sword and tonfa.

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

She'd have to have arms like Arnold Schwartzenegger to hold up all that metal...

 

As opposed to a shield and the armor someone would be wearing anyway, or something along those lines? How much heavier would it be?

 

How did those little (by modern standards) Macedonians manage a shield and a 20 foot pike?

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

They may have been little (by modern standards, anyway), but I would bet that you would have a hard time finding anyone in the modern world in as good shape as an average warrior or soldier from history.

 

We, as a society, are woefully out-of-shape. Walking a mile is a major undertaking for most people, never mind marching all day long. Doing it while carrying 50+ lbs of gear is out of the question for anyone except military personnel. And they have other options - choppers, APC's, trucks, etc. - to help out. The various disctractions of the modern age (radio, TV, computers... ) doesn't help out any either.

 

The ancients had no such distractions, and little in the way of mechanical assistance. You walked a mile to the far end of the field before breakfast, carrying a bag of seed/fertilzer/whatever. At the end of harvest, you walked that mile back repeatedly, carrying the crops to storage. In between, you walked countless miles maintaining the crops. Need a drink? Go pull the water up from a well. Going to market? That could be several miles away.

 

I would bet those Macedonian soldiers had no problem handling the sarissa properly.

 

Of course, now that I think about it, the girls wouldn't have been wimps either, since they're the ones who had to go for the water, and to market, etc... Which was probably your point in the first place.

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

They may have been little (by modern standards, anyway), but I would bet that you would have a hard time finding anyone in the modern world in as good shape as an average warrior or soldier from history.

 

We, as a society, are woefully out-of-shape. Walking a mile is a major undertaking for most people, never mind marching all day long. Doing it while carrying 50+ lbs of gear is out of the question for anyone except military personnel. And they have other options - choppers, APC's, trucks, etc. - to help out. The various disctractions of the modern age (radio, TV, computers... ) doesn't help out any either.

 

The ancients had no such distractions, and little in the way of mechanical assistance. You walked a mile to the far end of the field before breakfast, carrying a bag of seed/fertilzer/whatever. At the end of harvest, you walked that mile back repeatedly, carrying the crops to storage. In between, you walked countless miles maintaining the crops. Need a drink? Go pull the water up from a well. Going to market? That could be several miles away.

 

I would bet those Macedonian soldiers had no problem handling the sarissa properly.

 

Of course, now that I think about it, the girls wouldn't have been wimps either, since they're the ones who had to go for the water, and to market, etc... Which was probably your point in the first place.

 

It was kinda my point -- that most people were, compared to us, in remarkable shape (on the other hand, they had a lot more illness that they could do nothing to treat). Or rather, my point in asking was to point out that people we would consider little and sometimes undernourished managed to end up with loads of stamina and carrying strength.