Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

But then, there's still the Khopesh. Looks kinda crude there, that old, tarnished bronze weapon. The blade, being sickle-shaped (but with the edge on the outside of the curve) gives it a primitive appearance, and so it was judged a primitive, clumsy weapon by historians - a footnote in the evolution of swords, as it were.

 

Then recently, someone made up a modern one and handed it to an experienced medieval combat reinactor... And the assessment was a true revalation. It swings like a dream, and has a slash or chop much like the falcatta, but the reinforced point - and that subtle angle between the hilt and the point - make it stab like the best Gladius, only a bit longer (bonus!).

 

The khopesh was recently featured on a Discovery or History channel special about Egyptian weaponry, I wish I could find a link to it off hand (you might try searching for it yourself, my google-fu seems rather weak tonight). Add into that the ability to use the curve of the sickle-shape to 'hook' an opponent's shield and wrench it out of position, and you have one heck of a weapon system!

 

If you're looking to give your character a taste of the exotic, a Khopesh might be the way to go.

 

That is great information. Thanks.

 

One thing I wonder about the wars of the Old Testament era was what sort of weapons were used and how men actually fought. Obviously slings and bows were used, as were war chariots, but how were battles fought and decided?

 

Anyway, have some rep.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

It was kinda my point -- that most people were' date=' compared to us, in remarkable shape (on the other hand, they had a lot more illness that they could do nothing to treat). Or rather, my point in asking was to point out that people we would consider little and sometimes undernourished managed to end up with loads of stamina and carrying strength.[/quote']

 

Yep! Our forefathers would sneer at us as a bunch of wusses, all right!

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

That is great information. Thanks.

 

One thing I wonder about the wars of the Old Testament era was what sort of weapons were used and how men actually fought. Obviously slings and bows were used, as were war chariots, but how were battles fought and decided?

 

Anyway, have some rep.

 

Keep an eye on the History Channel, they have been running shows about that very subject lately - even detailing the strategies and campaigns of the Israelite kings in their conquest of Canaan. But in short, the Old Testament wars were fought with spear, shield, and khopesh - it seems to have been the signature bronze age weapon of the area. But some of the classical tactics - even ones like attacking out of the sun and draw your enemy out of his strong position - were standard at the time.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Keep an eye on the History Channel' date=' they have been running shows about that very subject lately - even detailing the strategies and campaigns of the Israelite kings in their conquest of Canaan. But in short, the Old Testament wars were fought with spear, shield, and khopesh - it seems to have been the signature bronze age weapon of the area. But some of the classical tactics - even ones like [i']attacking out of the sun[/i] and draw your enemy out of his strong position - were standard at the time.

 

Obviously one of the innumerable details that Cecil B. DeMille continuously got wrong.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Obviously one of the innumerable details that Cecil B. DeMille continuously got wrong.

 

I've heard the name, but I have no idea who that is...

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

I've heard the name' date=' but I have no idea who that is...[/quote']

 

Cecil B. DeMille was one of the most successful producer-directors in cinema history, starting in the silent era and going strong through the 1950's. Epics were his line and the Biblical epic was his specialty. today, he is best known for his final movie, The Ten Commandments (a remake of a silent film he'd made in the 1920s). He was also responsible for two atempts to make King of Kings, an adaptation of Jesus's story. These were usually the backdrop for much spectacle.

 

Incidentally, DeMille had a cameo as himself in Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard and was mentioned in the notorious final scene.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Cecil B. DeMille was one of the most successful producer-directors in cinema history' date=' starting in the silent era and going strong through the 1950's. Epics were his line and the Biblical epic was his specialty. today, he is best known for his final movie, [i']The Ten Commandments[/i] (a remake of a silent film he'd made in the 1920s). He was also responsible for two atempts to make King of Kings, an adaptation of Jesus's story. These were usually the backdrop for much spectacle.

 

Incidentally, DeMille had a cameo as himself in Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard and was mentioned in the notorious final scene.

 

Ah. And he had no idea what the swords of the era looked like, I assume.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

. . . I like the story of how one of de Mille's abandoned sets was rediscovered and thought to be the remnants of an old Californian, pre-Columbian civilisation.

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Yep! Our forefathers would sneer at us as a bunch of wusses' date=' all right! [/quote']

 

On the other hand, we're... tall. To some of them, the first world would look like a land of wussy giants. Imagine what they'd think of certain athletes -- 6'6" and 260 lbs, 7+' and 300+ lbs, guys who are tall and heavy and in very good shape.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

On the other hand' date=' we're... tall. To some of them, the first world would look like a land of wussy giants. Imagine what they'd think of certain athletes -- 6'6" and 260 lbs, 7+' and 300+ lbs, guys who are tall and heavy [i']and[/i] in very good shape.

 

The only thing that comes to mind is 'The bigger they are, the harder they fall...'

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Ah. And he had no idea what the swords of the era looked like' date=' I assume.[/quote']

 

In his day, nobody did really. Archaeology was still a realm of gathering artifacts for museums, with understanding of cultures through those artifacts important but secondary to the process of getting and staying funded. A prime example was the Tutankhamen excavations, which were mainly a race to get all those artifacts out of the tomb before the poachers did and study them later at leisure. This meant, of course, that the study lacked context and it took several decades before significant knowledge about the Boy King and his times was gained.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

On the other hand' date=' we're... tall. To some of them, the first world would look like a land of wussy giants. Imagine what they'd think of certain athletes -- 6'6" and 260 lbs, 7+' and 300+ lbs, guys who are tall and heavy [i']and[/i] in very good shape.

 

One word -- Goliath.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

One word -- Goliath.

 

Goliath was from our time?

 

[Curufea]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

You could have an interesting RPG plot set in ancient times where Goliath was a time traveller

 

However - there will always be mutants in any period. We still have dwarfs and midgets today after all, and folk more than 7 feet tall.

 

There is of course the standard response of any historian as well - are there any primary sources to prove that Goliath actually existed?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

I thought there was several non-Biblical references to "giants" being integrating into Philistine culture, but I could be mis-remembering...

[Curufea]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Maybe they were what's left of the crew of Battlestar Galactica?

[lemming]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

The only thing that comes to mind is 'The bigger they are' date=' the harder they fall...' [/quote']

 

And of course "The bigger they are, the harder they hit."

 

Just something from a giant robot in one of our games.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

And of course "The bigger they are, the harder they hit."

 

Just something from a giant robot in one of our games.

 

Not to mention Darkwing Duck!

[lemming]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Not to mention Darkwing Duck!

 

Heh. Our game predated that, mid-80s. (Not that it hadn't been heard of before that.)

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Part of what it comes down to is that just about every practical, useful variation on the sword and similar weapons has already been done and is already associated with an existing culture.

 

It's hard to come up with a new bladed melee weapon or useful variation of one at this point.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Yeah, there's really only so many ways you can take a long piece of metal and make it effective at inflicting penetrating trauma on the human body.

 

Out of curiousity, have you consiered giving your protagonist a kris-style blade?

[L. Marcus]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Or a pair of butterfly swords?

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Yeah, there's really only so many ways you can take a long piece of metal and make it effective at inflicting penetrating trauma on the human body.

 

Out of curiousity, have you consiered giving your protagonist a kris-style blade?

 

 

Not an authentic keris, but perhaps something with a blade of that sort but a more European hilt and crossguard of some sort.

 

However, your mention of the keris did prompt me to do a little searching, and I found the following section in the Wiki article, which lends itself nicely to something I had in mind.

 

Blades are considered to almost be alive, or at the very least, vessels of special powers. Krisses could be tested two ways. A series of cuts on a leaf, based on blade width and other factors, could determine if a blade was good or bad. Also, if the owner slept with the blade under their pillow, the spirit of the kris would communicate with the owner via dream. If the owner had a bad dream, the blade was unlucky and had to be discarded, whereas if the owner had a good dream the owner would have good fortune. However, just because a blade was bad for one person didn't mean it would be bad for another. Harmony between the owner and the kris was critical.

 

It was said that some kris helped prevent fires, death, agricultural failure, and many other problems. Likewise, they could also bring fortune, such as bountiful harvests. Krisses could also have tremendous killing power. Some are rumored to stand on their tips when their real names are called by their masters. Legends tell of krisses moving on their own volition and killing individuals at will. When making a blade, the empu could infuse into the blade any special spiritual qualities and powers the owner desires.

[Vulcan]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Not an authentic keris, but perhaps something with a blade of that sort but a more European hilt and crossguard of some sort.

 

However, your mention of the keris did prompt me to do a little searching, and I found the following section in the Wiki article, which lends itself nicely to something I had in mind.

Blades are considered to almost be alive, or at the very least, vessels of special powers. Krisses could be tested two ways. A series of cuts on a leaf, based on blade width and other factors, could determine if a blade was good or bad. Also, if the owner slept with the blade under their pillow, the spirit of the kris would communicate with the owner via dream. If the owner had a bad dream, the blade was unlucky and had to be discarded, whereas if the owner had a good dream the owner would have good fortune. However, just because a blade was bad for one person didn't mean it would be bad for another. Harmony between the owner and the kris was critical.

 

It was said that some kris helped prevent fires, death, agricultural failure, and many other problems. Likewise, they could also bring fortune, such as bountiful harvests. Krisses could also have tremendous killing power. Some are rumored to stand on their tips when their real names are called by their masters. Legends tell of krisses moving on their own volition and killing individuals at will. When making a blade, the empu could infuse into the blade any special spiritual qualities and powers the owner desires.

 

Oh, yes, the kris has all the same sort of legends about it that the katana does for the Japanese, or Excalibur for the English. It might make for a fascinating side-plot for the blade to talk to your protagonist in her sleep...

[Kristopher]

Re: Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

 

Oh' date=' yes, the [i']kris[/i] has all the same sort of legends about it that the katana does for the Japanese, or Excalibur for the English. It might make for a fascinating side-plot for the blade to talk to your protagonist in her sleep...

 

That's something like what I was thinking, yeah, at one point, years ago. I just have to be careful about it, evidently the whole intelligent sword thing has been done before.

 

(When I first came up with the character years ago, I hadn't even heard of Elric, let alone read the books. Then someone said "your white-haired, red-eyed, ashed-skinned protagonist is just an Elric ripoff." **sigh**)