Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

[Utech]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

...and here is why we will never agree: you think that is cool and I think that is silly.

There's no accounting for taste.

 

If she gets electrocuted she can't just decide to ignore the damage SOMETIMES.

Deciding has nothing to do with it.

 

It is like the sfx for a block being 'Iron Chin'. You'll never convince me that makes sense.

Then we're done. All is well. Game on!

[Utech]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

What doesn't make sense is building them as defenses that work against things like being submerged in acid. Or when you're entangled. It also makes more sense if they only work against attacks the defender is aware of...

Perfectly sensible:

Magic Ring built with DCV levels

Magic Ring built with Armor

Slippery Guy built with DCV levels

Slippery Guy built with Force Field

Semi-Invulnerability built with DCV levels

Semi-Invulnerability built with Desolidification

Unreliable AI-Controlled Starship Defenses built with DCV levels

Unreliable AI-Controlled Starship defenses built with Force Wall

 

Each defense handles attacks differently, but perfectly sensibly -- using different aspects of the HERO rules. If you don't care for a particular build, that's fine. You don't have to use it.

[Utech]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

(PS Gymgyna doesn't have armour. The name means something like 'naked woman'. Interesting martial arts style though....)

Don't get hung up on the names of Powers. Gymgyna can have the Armor Power without wearing armor.

 

And I agree completely that it's an interesting martial arts style.

[jtelson]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

...and here is why we will never agree: you think that is cool and I think that is silly. If she gets electrocuted she can't just decide to ignore the damage SOMETIMES. The damage shield I presented works on contact - if she makes contact then she takes the damage.

 

If someone builds a power or power set and defines it as Dodge or Block then I would look for the variable special effect advantage and; If they define it as Dodges and Blocks then I would say your attack triggers - but they would still get any armor that was part of the set.

 

 

...It is like the sfx for a block being 'Iron Chin'. You'll never convince me that makes sense. Someone does a move through and you iron chin them: why don't they have to stop in front of you and take the move through damage?

 

What normally happens when you block a move through?

[jtelson]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

What doesn't make sense is building them as defenses that work against things like being submerged in acid.

 

What is being submerged in acid?

 

Is there a Sealed vs. Immersion adder for the armor power? advantage? Do I get to take 'Not sealed vs. Immersion' as a limitation on any non-sealed suit of armor?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

If someone builds a power or power set and defines it as Dodge or Block then I would look for the variable special effect advantage and; If they define it as Dodges and Blocks then I would say your attack triggers - but they would still get any armor that was part of the set.

 

Just to be clear: I don't mind, particularly, if someone defines their dodge as involving contact or their block as not involving contact: so long as they do it at character creation and stick by the decision. If they don't make that decision I'll be making it for them if I'm the GM, and it will be that dodge is avoidance and block involves contact.

 

The problem arises when, for example, someone builds their 'ultra-toughness' as +10 DCV. Sure they don't take damage that often BUT it doesn't work against AoE, for example, or if they are unable to move. They have a responsibility to explain WHY that is the case.

 

Similarly if someone builds a 'dodge' ability as 1/2 damage reduction - that works fine a lot of the time - but doesn't work well if the character is entangled and can not get out of the way - so you need to add in limitations to emulate that. If you don't think the consequences of a power build through it can end up being silly.

 

 

 

 

What normally happens when you block a move through?

 

I know what doesn't happen: the attacker doesn't stop a the point of contact: if the block is successful they continue on to the end of their move and neither party takes any damage. If there is any contact then it is insufficient to affect their trajectory. That means that if you want to define a block as Iron Chin - I just stand there immobile and tough out the hit - you ALSO have to explain why it is that, despite standing in the way of the attack, you are not injured and the attacker is not stopped.

 

Another thought: if Joe Normal decides to define his block as Iron Chin, does it make any sense that it works when he's haymakered by Grond? Someone without powers toughing out THAT kind of hit? I don't think it does. OK, GROND might define his block that way....but what if Grond is facing someone more powerful? So powerful that is is 'proportionally' a normal to their attack?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Similarly if someone builds a 'dodge' ability as 1/2 damage reduction - that works fine a lot of the time - but doesn't work well if the character is entangled and can not get out of the way - so you need to add in limitations to emulate that. If you don't think the consequences of a power build through it can end up being silly.

 

It is for this reason that I think HERO characters (Champions characters in particular) should have two character sheets.

 

On one sheet there should be the full working mechanics of the character including power names and stuff. On the second sheet there should be the description of powers and only the basic numbers. One sheet is used for building the character and paying attention to the mechanics etc, the second sheet describes the power in real words where it should be obvious what works and what does not.

 

I have used varieties of character sheets - have a look at this one called Ironclad attached to the mail and identify it for me....

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

It is for this reason that I think HERO characters (Champions characters in particular) should have two character sheets.

 

On one sheet there should be the full working mechanics of the character including power names and stuff. On the second sheet there should be the description of powers and only the basic numbers. One sheet is used for building the character and paying attention to the mechanics etc, the second sheet describes the power in real words where it should be obvious what works and what does not.

 

I have used varieties of character sheets - have a look at this one called Ironclad attached to the mail and identify it for me....

 

 

Doc

 

 

....would that be Foxbat?

 

 

I very much like this approach. In fact, if I were to suggest a format for sixthed, I'd start with the system mechanics, then a few introductory characters (along the lines of Ironclad) and a brief scenario designed to highlight and practice the mechanical rules THEN I'd introduce character creation. Every RPG (pretty much) puts it first, but it is the single most misunderstood and scary part of Hero. Better, IMO, to have character creation as an advanced option, within the core rules, but not the first thing you run into.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Perfectly sensible:

Magic Ring built with DCV levels

Magic Ring built with Armor

Slippery Guy built with DCV levels

Slippery Guy built with Force Field

Semi-Invulnerability built with DCV levels

Semi-Invulnerability built with Desolidification

Unreliable AI-Controlled Starship Defenses built with DCV levels

Unreliable AI-Controlled Starship defenses built with Force Wall

 

Each defense handles attacks differently, but perfectly sensibly -- using different aspects of the HERO rules. If you don't care for a particular build, that's fine. You don't have to use it.

 

I was talking about shields. Physical objects you block with. Nothing like what you are talking about. Please read more carefully.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

What is being submerged in acid?

 

Is there a Sealed vs. Immersion adder for the armor power? advantage? Do I get to take 'Not sealed vs. Immersion' as a limitation on any non-sealed suit of armor?

 

Submerged in acid is something that affects Captain America more than Iron Man.

 

Unless Cap's player (and the GM) are using some wacky build that throttles my suspension of disbelief.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

I've thought that it might be nice to have additions to the Life Support Chart:

 

Electrically Insulated

Sonically Insulated

Liquid Proof

Gas Proof (NB this requires some sort of extended breathing or breath holding or you suffocate)

Negative Energy Insulated

Acid Resistant

Base Resistant

 

 

Etc etc

 

Each would cost 2 points (as would heat, cold, high pressure, low pressure etc LS), or 1 point if linked to a specific defence (on the assumption that if that defence is active so is the LS and if it fails, so does the LS).

 

This enables the building of something like:

 

Electrical Arc: 5d6 NND (defence is electrically insulated defences) one hex AoE (accurate) 62 points active reduced range (12") -1/4 50 real

 

Of course you can do that at present BUT it is purely a matter of sfx whether your defences are 'electrically insulated', which means that it 'makes sense' (in terms, at least, of character efficiency) to define your defences as insulating against anything and everything (Throbmoanium does that...)

 

You can also build this:

 

Acid Spray: 4d6 NND (defence is acid resistant or liquid proof defences) does Body, one hex AoE (70 active points) No Range -1/2 47 Real

 

Again you can do that at the moment but who can really say whether your force field actually does stop liquids?

 

Yes, it is getting people to spend more points but the it is also getting people to actually make real choices aboutt he character that they want, which leads to far better concept realisation.

 

 

Complete aside but while I'm ranting about LS, immunity to poison and disease costs far too much.

[jtelson]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Submerged in acid is something that affects Captain America more than Iron Man.

 

Unless Cap's player (and the GM) are using some wacky build that throttles my suspension of disbelief.

 

Yes but being submerged in acid would affect Captain America without Shield, Captain America with Shield, Captain America in Magic Plate Mail and Captain America in Police riot gear approximately the same amount. It's a question of Sealed Armor vs Not Sealed Armor rather than DCV vs Armor.

[jtelson]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

I've thought that it might be nice to have additions to the Life Support Chart:

 

Electrically Insulated

Sonically Insulated

Liquid Proof

Gas Proof (NB this requires some sort of extended breathing or breath holding or you suffocate)

Negative Energy Insulated

Acid Resistant

Base Resistant

 

 

Etc etc

 

Each would cost 2 points (as would heat, cold, high pressure, low pressure etc LS), or 1 point if linked to a specific defence (on the assumption that if that defence is active so is the LS and if it fails, so does the LS).

 

This enables the building of something like:

 

Electrical Arc: 5d6 NND (defence is electrically insulated defences) one hex AoE (accurate) 62 points active reduced range (12") -1/4 50 real

 

Of course you can do that at present BUT it is purely a matter of sfx whether your defences are 'electrically insulated', which means that it 'makes sense' (in terms, at least, of character efficiency) to define your defences as insulating against anything and everything (Throbmoanium does that...)

 

You can also build this:

 

Acid Spray: 4d6 NND (defence is acid resistant or liquid proof defences) does Body, one hex AoE (70 active points) No Range -1/2 47 Real

 

Again you can do that at the moment but who can really say whether your force field actually does stop liquids?

 

Yes, it is getting people to spend more points but the it is also getting people to actually make real choices aboutt he character that they want, which leads to far better concept realisation.

 

 

Complete aside but while I'm ranting about LS, immunity to poison and disease costs far too much.

 

That seems like it would work nicely - may very well field test it in one of the next Heracles' Children arcs.

 

And I agree about the Poison and Disease costs

[pinecone]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Recently we played our first Hero game ever. I didn't impose any restrictions-- basically let them spend their points however they wanted. The resulting party was a little unbalanced. From what I can tell' date=' it's best if a party is composed of characters with OCVs, DCVs and Speeds in relatively the same ballpark. Are there any other considerations more experienced Hero gamers might consider? (PD/ED maybe?) Thanks.[/quote']

 

 

I usually try to urge that Dex, Spd and Damage, Def be in a "Ballpark".

 

So I might say "Lets consider 3 spd ordinary, CV of 6, and damage in the 6DC range" for a fantasy Hero game...I let Def be unspoken because out side of magic Armor/Equipment gives a "soft cap" as is.

 

The main reason to do this is so nobody has a bad time because He took spd 2 and everyone else is spd 4, exept the Kung fu master/Duelist with spd 5....

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

I've thought that it might be nice to have additions to the Life Support Chart:

 

Electrically Insulated

Sonically Insulated

Liquid Proof

Gas Proof (NB this requires some sort of extended breathing or breath holding or you suffocate)

Negative Energy Insulated

Acid Resistant

Base Resistant

Not a bad idea. Suggestions:

 

Don't separate Acid and Base - just make one called "Chemically Resistant". And 2 points each might be too much, unless it replaces other forms of LS.

 

They should be called "Liquid Impermeable" and "Gas Impermiable" and usually, one would be built "on top of" the other. Liquid might cost 2 points, and Liquid and Gas might cost 3, say.

 

Also, How does Sonically insulated interact with Hearing? If you aren't affected at all by sonic vibrations, then you can't hear.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Not a bad idea. Suggestions:

 

Don't separate Acid and Base - just make one called "Chemically Resistant". And 2 points each might be too much, unless it replaces other forms of LS.

 

They should be called "Liquid Impermeable" and "Gas Impermiable" and usually, one would be built "on top of" the other. Liquid might cost 2 points, and Liquid and Gas might cost 3, say.

 

Also, How does Sonically insulated interact with Hearing? If you aren't affected at all by sonic vibrations, then you can't hear.

 

 

Chemical resistant sounds sensible.

 

I chose 2 points so that you could attach it to a defence and still have a cost differentiation (more than 'linked', I know, but I like the ability to have your space suit radiation resistant and if it is holed, it is not any more...).

 

I had gas impermeable replace liquid impermeable because if a gas can not get through a liquid is not going to and, whilst you could have a liquid impermeable covering that allowed O2 through to breathe, the gas impermeable one is more of a problem - it doesn't let gas through - so you need to spend more points on LS or be good at holding your breath...rather than a higher price it comes with a built in problem.

 

As for sonics, well, you could have a suit that prevented sonic damage but was still capable of electronically transmitting a safe version of what it is hearing to the wearer. So, deafness would make a logical disadvantage but not a compulsary one.

[pinecone]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Once again, thanks for all the replies-- this group is primarily into d20 3.5/Pathfinder types of games (class/level-oriented). I've been subjecting them to my personal quest in finding the 'ultimate rpg'. In the last year we've tried something like six different systems. It's a little ironic that now Hero System has their attention, a 6th Edition is coming out... hopefully it will be easy to transition to because as far as I'm concerned, this is it.

 

Our first game was heroic fantasy, (75 + 75 Disadvantage points) with Normal Characteristic Maxima. I allowed Powers to be used for the creation of spells and magic items. Everyone had at least two or three 20s in their Characteristics. The wizard had one spell (a very powerful Ego Attack). The fighter-types spent most of their points on Combat Skill Levels (up to +10 to OCV). I assured them that I was going play upon their Disadvantages.

 

This next game will be super-heroic...

 

Rawkin....I also found Hero to be "the right one" for me...and I enjoy Supers the most....

[kjandreano]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Nice ideas here.

Here is something to think about:

 

You are setting up a superhero game, and you want to have things balanced of course.

But, one of your players is rules raper/lawyer and another player is a mega-munchkin.

Do you use character creation restrictions to reign them in? If so, how do you implement such limitations?

 

-Keith

[jtelson]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Nice ideas here.

Here is something to think about:

 

You are setting up a superhero game, and you want to have things balanced of course.

But, one of your players is rules raper/lawyer and another player is a mega-munchkin.

Do you use character creation restrictions to reign them in? If so, how do you implement such limitations?

 

-Keith

 

You use guidelines and communication to keep them in-line...although in-line is a bit harsh. You give everyone your character creation guidelines, have them give you copies of their characters and you take plenty of time to review them. Make notes of things that concern you - divide those concerns into two camps. Things you don't want to see and things you're not sure about. Then talk to or email your players individualy (The first campaign or two should be talks to make certain everyone's on the same page). Things that you don't want to see have to go, offer suggestions about how to achieve similar effects in ways that don't make you're head explode, things you're concerned about they can change or not but make sure they know you may ask for a change later. So long as everyone knows going in even the munchkins shouldn't have much cause for complaint.. In my current campaign there are characters I had to see three of four passes at before I ok'd them.

 

If someone's completely off the reservation you have to sit them down and explain what your concerns are. I've had to have the Doc Savage talk a few times...The other players don't want to be your sidekicks and support staff, you're building a group of equals, I'm not running Doc Savage.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

Nice ideas here.

Here is something to think about:

 

You are setting up a superhero game, and you want to have things balanced of course.

But, one of your players is rules raper/lawyer and another player is a mega-munchkin.

Do you use character creation restrictions to reign them in? If so, how do you implement such limitations?

 

-Keith

 

My normal S.O.P. for Munchkins at least is to make friends with them, hang out with them after a few game sessions, even after the players have gone home.

 

Then at some point, I make a 'really' obvious pass at them.

 

That usually gets rid of the problem.

 

Anyone wanna handle SOP for Rules Lawyers? XD

[kjandreano]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

OK, another sitch:

The player agrees to all that, but then bullies all the other PCs and starts doing half again more than the DC maximum in the game (just saying that he can). What would you as the GM do?

[jtelson]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

OK, another sitch:

The player agrees to all that, but then bullies all the other PCs and starts doing half again more than the DC maximum in the game (just saying that he can). What would you as the GM do?

 

A stern, very stern, conversation and should that fails boot him from the game.

 

If you're not in a position to boot him from the game for whatever reason and you're not willing to just drop the group then compensate. His hits do 50% less, he takes 2x more etc - bring him back into balance by adjusting the numbers.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

OK, another sitch:

The player agrees to all that, but then bullies all the other PCs and starts doing half again more than the DC maximum in the game (just saying that he can). What would you as the GM do?

 

How is he going to do that without the GM approving his character. The GM should always have final say over what he lets in the campaign. He should of course be reasonable about this and post guidelines beforehand but sometimes players can't or don't get it.

 

Just reasonably sit down and discuss any problem s you see and try to get his/her concept to work within your framework. Either you'll come to an agreement or head off a potential problem player later.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

There's always the passive/aggressive approach. OK, he has 50% more DC's. The villains choose to attack him first. They have a few attacks that cost more END, or are otherwise disadvantageous, but hit harder (maybe they have about 50% more DC's), which they use against UberCharacter, but not the others. They tend to have extra defenses against UberMan's SFX, and/or attacks that target any vulnerabilities he may have.

 

The GM can rebalance the game if need be.

 

The PC "bullying the other PC's" seems easily solved if the other PC's have spines. We simply will not work with this person. Period. Done. His actions make it clear he is not a Hero.

 

A group discussion with the player similar to the above may be in order. If he's reducing the fun for the rest of the group, he's not going to be welcome to participate. Or, if there is some reason the offending player cannot be removed, he will be largely ignored in game, get no xp, etc. until he decides to leave on his own.

[Vulcan]

Re: Restricting Aspects of Character Creation

 

OK, another sitch:

The player agrees to all that, but then bullies all the other PCs and starts doing half again more than the DC maximum in the game (just saying that he can). What would you as the GM do?

 

He bullies the PC's, or bullies the players? Either way, bad situation.

 

If his PC is bullying the other PC's, then the GM needs to step in and find out why he thinks this is acceptable behavior for a RPG.

 

If the player is bullying the other players, he needs to be banned from your game. Period. No one likes a bully, and even less like to play what is supposed to be a cooperative game with one.

 

If the bully steps over the line into assault, call the police. No, I'm serious. No matter how good a friend you might think he is, your players do not deserve to get beat up because Bully wants to be in control. Alternativly, find a player who has studied martial arts to deal with him.