Superbeing Rights Debate

[Balabanto]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

You and definitely have a different idea of clones. Also possibly of civil liberties for non-human beings. I believe that we as a people should uphold the ideals of our nation's laws. That we take the high road not because it's easy, but because it is the right thing to do. We sometimes miss this ideal when we let our prejudices get the better of us, but we eventually correct the injustice.

 

I don't read Spider Man because frankly Peter Parker just leaves me cold. At worst he just annoys the heck out of me. I always was more a fan of the Fantastic Four, I love the way that they interact. They get into fights with one another, but when it comes down to it they really are a family. So I apparently missed what I understand from reading this board as one of the worst story arc of all time. Funny thing is that instead of cutting such dreck out of your campaign you embraced it esp after you had a bad experience with a PC switch storyline.

 

So I don't have the bad experiences with Clones in Comics you did. In fact my only experience with a Clone was the Superman Clone(ie Superboy) who was a member of the Teen Titans up till they killed him off in the last crappy crisis of mega sales arc. He was interesting. He was the fusion of Superman and Lex Luthor and was dealing with reality of his villanous father when LL activated his evil programing. The greatest thing about that was that his love for Cassie (Wonder Girl) allowed him to become his own person again. Though there was no substiution and Superboy was never portrayed as something to stand in for Superman and ruin his name. So I actually enjoyed the character, he was quite human and flawed (unlike his 'Cousin supes).

 

So I think what folk in this thread are trying to point out. Is that you can treat clones as people and not have the whole world drift into anarchy. I have personally poked holes into the Clones are totally identical theory.

 

Genetically identical doesn't mean that a clone and his progenitor will be Identical in each and every way. I mean fingerprints don't start to cover the differences. Especially if a clone is aged to his 20s and the original is older. In fact the older the original, the less they will look alike (esp for males, as the male jaw and nose keeps growing as you age With the nose becoming a bit larger and jaw becomming longer at the chin). Also Dental work will make a huge change in the progenitor (fillings/ caps/ pulled teeth all change the shape of the jaw). Also any trauma experienced by the progenitor (ie broken bones in childhood, getting in to fights where facial hits are taken.) So I guess it breaks my suspension of disbelief that a clone has to have something added to make them seem different, because the Progenitor will from just living have differences built in. Things that will be VERY difficult to fake in a clone.

 

So ignore what some hack Comic writers say and read up on the science of how people grow and how their environment changes them. That alone will change your viewpoint. Science gives you ways to deal with these issues, and our laws are another way to deal. This thread has the tools to deal with Clones successfuly without genetic markers and without them being "Fleshbots".

 

Tasha

 

Using realism as a shield will not be a sufficient answer for most player character groups. It places an unfair demand on people who have more scientific knowledge and leads to a SIGNIFICANT problem. That problem is this:

 

Falling back on realistic science destroys four color comic book games. Completely. Without fail. People inevitably make darker, grittier and more realistic characters, and the game falls apart. This is a bad answer. It also requires more science than everyone is willing to learn, and if the PC's don't understand the science behind it, the PLAYERS WILL COMPLAIN.

 

Trust me, this is not a road you want to go down. Real World vs. Championsworld has caused fights between players and GMs before, and it will again.

 

If you use real world science as a shield for this argument, you ALSO have to deal with it's CONSEQUENCES. The Religious Right, the political issues surrounding stem cell research, etc. And I have some VERY left leaning and VERY right leaning people in my group. You cannot seriously suggest that this will not boil over. It always does. Perhaps your group is neatly homogenous, but what you're suggesting, quite simply, makes no sense within the social and political dynamic of a diverse group of people between the ages of 30-60.

 

As for the idea that eventually we correct the injustice? Really? The Red Scare. Mccarthy Walked. Nixon Walked. Ronald Reagan Walked. Bill Clinton Walked. Dick Cheney Walked. They all WALKED. They did the crime, and they did not do the time. Some of them didn't even get arrested.

 

These injustices were not "Corrected" Tasha. They GOT AWAY WITH IT! Truth is not a substitute for punishment.

 

In a superhero game, the superheroes are the ones responsible for upholding those high ideals. That means that when the bad guy walks, they say something like "We'll be waiting."

 

But do this enough, to PLAYER CHARACTERS, and you will find that the lengths that they are willing to go to just to keep ANY villain in prison are outrageous. It makes the game "not fun." Therefore, a mechanism by which ALL Clones are allowed to "get away with it" is not fair to the PC's.

[Cygnia]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

I'm just confused here. If you're the GM and you have issues with clones, why are you even allowing that level of high-tech mad science in the game world in the first place?

[Thag13]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Its getting a little heated in the thread folks.

 

Speaking as a mod, lets turn the heat down a little bit.

 

Thank you.

[Tasha]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Using realism as a shield will not be a sufficient answer for most player character groups. It places an unfair demand on people who have more scientific knowledge and leads to a SIGNIFICANT problem. That problem is this:

 

Falling back on realistic science destroys four color comic book games. Completely. Without fail. People inevitably make darker, grittier and more realistic characters, and the game falls apart. This is a bad answer. It also requires more science than everyone is willing to learn, and if the PC's don't understand the science behind it, the PLAYERS WILL COMPLAIN.

 

Trust me, this is not a road you want to go down. Real World vs. Championsworld has caused fights between players and GMs before, and it will again.

 

If you use real world science as a shield for this argument, you ALSO have to deal with it's CONSEQUENCES. The Religious Right, the political issues surrounding stem cell research, etc. And I have some VERY left leaning and VERY right leaning people in my group. You cannot seriously suggest that this will not boil over. It always does. Perhaps your group is neatly homogenous, but what you're suggesting, quite simply, makes no sense within the social and political dynamic of a diverse group of people between the ages of 30-60.

 

As for the idea that eventually we correct the injustice? Really? The Red Scare. Mccarthy Walked. Nixon Walked. Ronald Reagan Walked. Bill Clinton Walked. Dick Cheney Walked. They all WALKED. They did the crime, and they did not do the time. Some of them didn't even get arrested.

 

These injustices were not "Corrected" Tasha. They GOT AWAY WITH IT! Truth is not a substitute for punishment.

 

In a superhero game, the superheroes are the ones responsible for upholding those high ideals. That means that when the bad guy walks, they say something like "We'll be waiting."

 

But do this enough, to PLAYER CHARACTERS, and you will find that the lengths that they are willing to go to just to keep ANY villain in prison are outrageous. It makes the game "not fun." Therefore, a mechanism by which ALL Clones are allowed to "get away with it" is not fair to the PC's.

 

Actually I was talking about laws that had injustice written into them. Like Women's right to vote, minority Rights to vote, things like this. I won't get into more as I don't want to cause this thread to get worse. Yes I will concede that the Rich and Powerful will sometimes not pay for their crimes, or will not face as stiff as sentence as a poor person.

 

I don't run a four color game, and I don't know anyone who as run a four color game since the first game we played. Basically noone I play with likes the feel of Golden Age and Silver age Games. As for Villains getting away with their crimes, I usually hand wave the whole thing and say that the Villain was convicted. Unless I want to run a plot that upsets the campaign. Because people don't like the Villain to escape every time. Villains who always escape will sometimes find themselves turned into corpses if the Players get frustrated enough.

 

More later,

Tasha

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

hmmm. Interesting my crowd loves recurring villains. I usually ask them when a bad guy is captured if the want to see him back and how soon. Unless he's crossed over the line ( done some really low,heinous and personal to a player or beloved NPC) its let him cool off for one or 2 appearances of his associates and then lets have him back if they liked him at all.

[Tasha]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

hmmm. Interesting my crowd loves recurring villains. I usually ask them when a bad guy is captured if the want to see him back and how soon. Unless he's crossed over the line ( done some really low' date='heinous and personal to a player or beloved NPC) its let him cool off for one or 2 appearances of his associates and then lets have him back if they liked him at all.[/quote']

 

My players don't mind Recurring villians if they aren't constantly escaping from Stronghold. Sometimes I have Villians escape by leaving when it's starting to look like they might lose the whole battle. (ie Mechanon's brain escape pod). Yes it can be fun having a rogues gallery, but I have found that you need to give the Players time before you pull the same villians over and over.

 

Basically you and I agree on this point

 

Tasha

[Houston GM]

Clones and the Fine Art of Murder

 

Tasha' date=' if I have a Cloner and his Clone, and I convict the clone of the Murder of Bob, I cannot ALSO convict the Clone of the same crime. They are different individuals. They are tried separately, because any sane lawyer will file for separation to protect the rights of his client![/quote']

You can convict two people for one murder. Charge one as the murderer and one as the accessory. If 10 people assisted, then all of them can be charged as accessories.

 

This is real-world law. There are two people serving time for the murder of my grandparents. Only one of them pulled the trigger; the other was charged as an accessory.

 

You can also charge both of them for conspiring to commit murder.

 

The defense attorney(s) could file for separation, but they won't necessarily get it. (In other words, they'd need to provide a more compelling reason than you've outlined.)

 

Each can claim that the other is guilty. Reasonable doubt is built in. It is likely that most juries will not convict. Everybody walks!

Juries don't like to let murderers walk. They're much more inclinded to ignore reasonable doubt.

 

Let's say I create a clone of myself to murder Balabanto. While the clone is committing the murder, I hang out in a public place to provide myself an alibi.

 

When we're caught and brought to trial, the district attorney charges one of us as the murderer, charges the other as an accessory (for providing the alibi), and charges both of us for conspiracy to commit murder.

 

If the jury is convinced that we both participated in murdering Balabanto, they're not going to let us walk. (They'll happily ignore their doubt over which class A felony we're guilty of. They'll sleep well knowing we were guilty of at least one class A felony apiece.) The only way we would survive on reasonable doubt would be if we convinced the jury that one of us was completely guilty and the other was completely innocent ... and they still weren't sure which was which.

 

If both are convicted of the crime' date=' they can both appeal, and BOTH VERDICTS WILL BE OVERTURNED.[/quote']

This earns us a new trial, where we'll both be convicted again.

 

Repeat process until we run out of money to hire attorneys.

 

Comic Book Cloning tells us that a clone of a superbeing can be indistinguishable from the original' date=' 100 Percent. Not different fingerprints, not anything.[/quote']

I'm not playing a comic book. I'm playing a role-playing game. Clones have identical fingerprints only if the GM decides they do.

 

If the clone is obeying my orders, then we're not identical. I'm in charge, and the clone lacks willpower. This makes us different ... if only on a mental level. Telepathy will clearly show the difference.

 

If my clone and I are truly identical, Balabanto will never be murdered. Because both the clone and I will volunteer to provide the public alibi while insisting that the other one should pull the trigger.

 

Reasonable Doubt is therefore built in' date=' at least if you read the same comic books I do.[/quote']

I try to make my games a little less predictable than comic books.

____________

 

How to Commit a Murder with a Clone (and Get Away with It)

 

I decide who I want to murder (Marcus this time), and I decide who I want to frame (Balabanto).

 

I secretly create a clone of Balabanto and ensure the clone is under my control.

 

I choose a time when I have an alibi (I'm in public with lots of witnesses) and Balabanto has no alibi (he's home alone). I send the clone to murder Marcus in a very public venue, but not so public that the clone can't escape.

 

A few hours after the murder, I secretly meet up with the clone, murder the clone, and render it down to protoplasmic goo (so nobody can tell that it was genetically identical to Balabanto).

 

Now Marcus is dead. I'm "clearly" innocent of his murder. Balabanto is framed for murder. And Balabanto doesn't have a clone that he can point at for "reasonable doubt".

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Incidentally, I'd assess that the people most inclined to clone themselves and commit crimes are the people most likely to end up killing each other to decide who will be the "real" one rather than keeping their eye on the ball. In my experience it's a self-correcting problem. A bigger problem of course are the people who clone _other_ people to create evil twins but that doesn't pose as much of an identification problem.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Balabanto, I would appreciate if you would respond to paragraph three on post #81. I think if you explain how clones work in your universe, (not how the legal system concerning them works, just how clones themselves work) it may help clear up your position.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1837054&postcount=81

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Chuckie Manson is currently in prison on several murder charges. He was not present when the crime was committed. He ordered someone else to do it. He and the perpetrators both went to prison.

 

Chuck Manson, Mafia Kingpins, Terrorist Leaders, and others have all been charged and found guilty along with thier minions for crimes. Ordering a crime, when you know the order will be obeyed, is committing the crime.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

No takers on Kon from Bleach?

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

No takers on Kon from Bleach?

 

I have, in my fantasy game, summoned creatures which are lifeforms deemed "to be without a soul" and legally slaves.

 

So, in my fantasy game, if Kon could demonstrate that he had a soul (which admittedly would be hard since animated plushy and even cat girls are consider soulless since they are usually summoned). My world hasn't encountered artificial souls and doesn't have an easy way to detect souls (except by shadow creatures being shadowy or by cat girls being cat girls and assumed to be created "ex nihilo" by a mortal being using magic) so the fact that Kon has an artificial soul would not be a problem so much as proving that he is a ensouled creature which would be a great debate indeed. The undead are also considered to be animated corpses, so it behooves them to not be detected as undead.

 

Now, in the modern world, I like to think Kon could be entitled to basic human rights by the duck test. Although the law can come up with some fairly abstruse reasons.

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

No takers on Kon from Bleach?

 

Well first of all, he fits into the illegal alien category. He was manufactured in another plane of existence and transported to Japan without being given legal entry. He has a good shot at a political refugee claim though, since he's a slave up for termination as "defective". His political status would actually be more troublesome if he was an artificial intelligence manufactured in Japan, because that would mean he'd start out having a Japanese owner and would need to establish in a court of law that he was a legal person rather than malfunctioning machinery.

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

There's one other to bear in mind with comic book clones. They have limited shelf-life. Once their narrative purpose is done writers have a tendency to make them break down since it's a plausible way to avoid having a character duplicate cluttering up the landscape. After all, it's not Dollie did all that well. So usually they die after a few days or weeks. The exceptions are usually flawed clones who produce an entirely new character like Bizarro, Carrion or Dani Phantom. This tends to ensure that legal issues never arise in the first place.

[Naanomi]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

There's one other to bear in mind with comic book clones. They have limited shelf-life.

 

There is another time of comic clone... the long-term replacement clone who believes he is the original. When he dies, it was a 'clone all along' and the real hero/villain was off on some solo adventure/gaining new powers/on another planet/whatever. Occasionally played where the original returns and tries to prove that he is in fact the real Dr. Doom (or whoever).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Balabanto, having read this whole thread, it looks to me like you have already made your mind up and instead of wanting opinions, are looking for a chance to publicly justify your stance. If I'm wrong, please forgive me, but that's how it looks, especially considering your responses have grown increasingly hostile with time.

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

There is another time of comic clone... the long-term replacement clone who believes he is the original. When he dies' date=' it was a 'clone all along' and the real hero/villain was off on some solo adventure/gaining new powers/on another planet/whatever. Occasionally played where the original returns and tries to prove that he is in fact the real Dr. Doom (or whoever).[/quote']

 

Haven't actually seen that. Robot duplicates and alien shapeshifters, yes. Clones no.

[Balabanto]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Uh, Spider Man Clone Saga.

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Uh' date=' Spider Man Clone Saga.[/quote']

 

Reilly died a few weeks after being introduced, and his body disintegrated after death in exactly the way bodies don't. Kaine was a flawed clone, and therefore lived.

[Balabanto]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

My game also has this Forgery Subskill:

 

 

Forgery: People: You must also have the appropriate sciences and skills to take this category. If your character is discovered to be in possession of this skill, likely, you have either cloned someone or been forced to do so. This skill represents the ability of a clone designer to design a convincing copy of a pre-existing human being. Ordinary appropriate science skills may oppose “Forgery: People.” This skill is very rare. Most people don’t know how to clone anyone, let alone get it to be a convincing copy of the original.

This represents the perception roll necessary to locate the “genetic marker” that identifies the clone.

[fbdaury]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

Reilly died a few weeks after being introduced' date=' and his body disintegrated after death in exactly the way bodies don't. Kaine was a flawed clone, and therefore lived.[/quote']

 

 

Actually, Reilly was from way back in the day and had been one of Warren's original batch of clones, he spent years travelling the US before coming back to New York. He didn't goo until he was dealt a fatal blow and lay dying. He was a near pefect clone except for the changes he made to differentiate himself- hair color, costume, etc. But this shows that an otherwise perfect clone can still be told from the original simply because he was a different person emotionally and mentally.

[SKJAM!]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

As and when I run a modern supers campaign again, this is how I most likely would handle cloning.

 

Normal medical science (which is slightly advanced beyond current science thanks to the presence of geniuses) can create "normal" clones, which obey the laws of biology as we know them. Normal aging, no memory transfer, it's like having a very young identical twin. In the US, it's illegal to clone someone without their prior written consent. Entertainment industry contracts now routinely have a cloning/no cloning clause inserted. The full social effects of cloning have yet to be felt, as only the first dozen or so known normal clones are just now hitting adolescence.

 

The normal clones are considered full human beings, although as minors, they do not have access to all their civil rights yet. Clones created illegally are considered wards of the state.

 

There's a lot of debate about the ethics of cloning, with religious and social conservatives strongly against any but the most strictly regulated uses. The procedure is highly expensive, and no more guaranteed to work than any other fertility treatment. There are rumors of "Joshua" experiments in which a clone is subjected to life experiences as close as possible to the original's in an effort to make them more identical. So far, DNA breaks down in corpses fast enough that even in countries where nonconsensual cloning is legal, they haven't managed to clone dead celebrities yet.

 

Mad science, on the other hand, has the ability to force-grow clones to adulthood quickly, transfer (and alter) memories, and ensure that the clone has the same metahuman powers as the original. Most known methods of creating forced growth cause long-term medical problems for the clone, and leave traces in the biology that are easily detected by medical experts. More inventive mad scientists often tamper further with their clones (opposite sex versions are popular, as most mad scientists don't get laid nearly often enough.)

 

Forced-growth clones are considered "human until proved otherwise", though many have diminished responsibility. Again, non-consensual cloning is illegal, and can be added to the charges against the criminal scientist.

 

Teleios and one or two other very advanced geneticists can create "perfect" clones that are indistinguishable from the original without a full DNA test. These are rare, as the necessary equipment and supplies are extremely expensive and the procedure is time-consuming. Teleios can produce perhaps three a year, so he saves "perfect" clones for the really important master plans. (At least one of the known perfect clones is of Teleios himself.)

[brionl]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

My game also has this Forgery Subskill:

 

 

Forgery: People: You must also have the appropriate sciences and skills to take this category. If your character is discovered to be in possession of this skill, likely, you have either cloned someone or been forced to do so. This skill represents the ability of a clone designer to design a convincing copy of a pre-existing human being. Ordinary appropriate science skills may oppose “Forgery: People.” This skill is very rare. Most people don’t know how to clone anyone, let alone get it to be a convincing copy of the original.

This represents the perception roll necessary to locate the “genetic marker” that identifies the clone.

 

You seem to be conflating a couple concepts here, and assuming that ALL clones work the same way. If you clone an adult human, you end up with a zygote. It still has to be born and raised, and taught, for ~18 years before it becomes an adult.

If you have some sort of "Clone-O-Mat" tech where you can insert tissue sample, and 60 seconds later something pops out that is fully adult, and visually indistinguishable from the donor, that's not a clone, that's just duplication with a "cloning" special effect. We'll call that an Identical Duplicate Incorporating Organic Technology (or I.D.I.O.T.).

If that's the way things work in your campaign, that's fine, but you are assuming that it always has to work that way in every campaign. Cloning =/= I.D.I.O.T.

If you want to read a good story about clone replacements and such like, I recommend "Brothers in Arms" and "Mirror Dance" by Lois McMaster Bujold.

[Clonus]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

You seem to be conflating a couple concepts here, and assuming that ALL clones work the same way. If you clone an adult human, you end up with a zygote. It still has to be born and raised, and taught, for ~18 years before it becomes an adult.

If you have some sort of "Clone-O-Mat" tech where you can insert tissue sample, and 60 seconds later something pops out that is fully adult, and visually indistinguishable from the donor, that's not a clone, that's just duplication with a "cloning" special effect.

 

A clone is a genetic duplicate grown from a sample of the original. Both things are clones. It's just that one kind is realistic and the other kind is wild comic book fantasy. Although I do like to call the latter "insta-clones" just to avoid confusion.

[assault]

Re: Superbeing Rights Debate

 

A clone is a genetic duplicate grown from a sample of the original. Both things are clones. It's just that one kind is realistic and the other kind is wild comic book fantasy. Although I do like to call the latter "insta-clones" just to avoid confusion.

 

The other issue is that fantasy clones often duplicate the memories and personalities of the original as well.

 

That's when the issue of telling them apart becomes really important.

 

"I'm not the clone! He is!"